ST5 vs Riese & Muller mid drive for hills

[Johnny]

Thanks for your feedback. I have a question with your ST5. When you pedal at a 28+ mph pace do you notice much resistance with the crank turnover?

Reason I am asking is I ride with traffic all the time. I have to be at 30 mph+ to access turn lanes at stop lights with vehicles approaching in the rear. When I am at 28 mph on the Delite the resistance of the cranks is similar to a 103 gear ratio going up an incline grade on a non e-bike. Its counter productive large gear mashing. This is not what I expected to happen prior to purchasing the Delite a couple years ago.

Hoping to know what real world speed you have experienced on the ST5 while riding with traffic. Your explaining of the rear wheel with hard stop on your ST5 is very helpful.

Until @AbeK replies let me share my experience with my ST5. I can take it very close to 31mph on the speedo however after that you kinda hit the wall.

Also your RM over-read your speed so when you see 28mph it is most likely in the 26-27mph range in the real world. If all you need is several more mph ST5 will be fine at that.

Also I think it is best to practice safety like taking a different path if possible.

 

[AbeK]

Thanks for your feedback. I have a question with your ST5. When you pedal at a 28+ mph pace do you notice much resistance with the crank turnover?

Reason I am asking is I ride with traffic all the time. I have to be at 30 mph+ to access turn lanes at stop lights with vehicles approaching in the rear. When I am at 28 mph on the Delite the resistance of the cranks is similar to a 103 gear ratio going up an incline grade on a non e-bike. Its counter productive large gear mashing. This is not what I expected to happen prior to purchasing the Delite a couple years ago.

Hoping to know what real world speed you have experienced on the ST5 while riding with traffic. Your explaining of the rear wheel with hard stop on your ST5 is very helpful.

Yes, I fully agree with Johnny. You can get your ST5 to 30 mph or a bit over, but frankly anything over 28 mph rapidly loses motor assistance and suddenly it becomes a 65 lb. bike with only your legs doing the work. So, while I often get my ST5 over 30 mph for short distances, you shouldn't count on going far at that speed (unless you're going downhill, of course).

My experience is that my Superdelite is comfortable at around 20mph to 23mph. Anything over that quickly escalates into a chore. My ST5 is quite comfortable at 24-27 mph. And unlike the Superdelite, the motor cutoff on the ST5 is more gradual, so you can get over 28 when you need to. Getting the Superdelite to 27 or 28 is truly painful. And I use the custom modes on my Superdelite, so I have it set to maximum power in Turbo mode all the way up to 28. It still struggles to get there.

Bottom line: if speed and acceleration are important to you, there's no comparison. The ST5 wins hands down.

 

[Alanzo]

Yes, I fully agree with Johnny. You can get your ST5 to 30 mph or a bit over, but frankly anything over 28 mph rapidly loses motor assistance and suddenly it becomes a 65 lb. bike with only your legs doing the work. So, while I often get my ST5 over 30 mph for short distances, you shouldn't count on going far at that speed (unless you're going downhill, of course).

My experience is that my Superdelite is comfortable at around 20mph to 23mph. Anything over that quickly escalates into a chore. My ST5 is quite comfortable at 24-27 mph. And unlike the Superdelite, the motor cutoff on the ST5 is more gradual, so you can get over 28 when you need to. Getting the Superdelite to 27 or 28 is truly painful. And I use the custom modes on my Superdelite, so I have it set to maximum power in Turbo mode all the way up to 28. It still struggles to get there.

Bottom line: if speed and acceleration are important to you, there's no comparison. The ST5 wins hands down.

After reading yours and Johnny's post I now have the impression I've got an excellent touring bike. I eventually want to get to 30 from my present 28 limit of the Delite. I now plan to take a trip to Crazy Lenny's in Madison next week for a test ride.

 

[Johnny]

After reading yours and Johnny's post I now have the impression I've got an excellent touring bike. I eventually want to get to 30 from my present 28 limit of the Delite. Definitely have to plan for a visit to the bike shop in Naperville to look at the Stromer.

Once again @AbeK summed it up perfectly there is really nothing to add to that.

I also agree that FS mid drives like yours and Abek's are fantastic tourers.

The problem with 30+mph is it is above 28mph so no legal bike will give full support at that point. Above 28mph ST5 has a milder transition but as Abek stated it is still there and you are getting much less support after 28mph threshold. If all you need is 32-33mph for a short period of time until you merge(given that the road is somewhat flat and you are ready to push yourself too) then something like badass box works well for that need and it is non-intrusive. Still those speeds imo are not safe so please be extra careful if you decide to derestrict your bike.

Best of luck.

 

[Alanzo]

Once again @AbeK summed it up perfectly there is really nothing to add to that.

I also agree that FS mid drives like yours and Abek's are fantastic tourers.

If all you need is 32-33mph for a short period of time until you merge(given that the road is somewhat flat and you are ready to push yourself too) then something like badass box works well for that need and it is non-intrusive.

Best of luck.

Johnny,
Thanks again for your post. A new e-bike purchase is expensive and may not be the answer for a speed bump on a small percentage of the local routes. I learned this morning a local dealer selling and servicing Stromer will not service the ST5 if purchased elsewhere. Very limited options for Stromer service in my local area if something happens with the bike under warranty.

I will probablly try the badass and see what happens. I do understand going over 28mph has risks. I use to time trial and had some bad moments.
My goal is not to ride @ 28 with an e-bike. Just need to maintain a gap from vehicle traffic at times on local rides. The extra 2-3mph above 28 makes a difference at those route segments.

 

[Alunare]

My previous R&M Delite GT was a 25Km/h bike. It was nearly impossible to get it over 25, i even suspected that the Bosch motor was actively breaking any effort i put in. It was absolutely egregious and infuriorating, one of the main reason i sold it and bought a Stromer. I tried a Superdelite HS and the feeling was exactly the same: a pain to get it to 45kmh and impossible to go beyond.

One of the (many) reasons i love my ST5 is that at no moment do i feel that the bike is working against me. I know i can count on it even beyond 45Kmh. Theres this long stretch i do twice a day in a tunnel here in Paris where i hit 48km/h for a 2km distance and it has never been difficult or annoying to go beyond the assistance.

 

[AbeK]

i even suspected that the Bosch motor was actively breaking any effort i put in.

Yes, the Bosch motor does indeed feel like that. My local dealer told me he loves his Stromer because is it feels like a real bicycle. You get out of it what you put into it.

 

[Alanzo]

Yes, the Bosch motor does indeed feel like that. My local dealer told me he loves his Stromer because is it feels like a real bicycle. You get out of it what you put into it.

Damn! I am so tempted to take a drive to Madison and deplete my home repairs fund so I can test ride and buy an ST5. Much better price up there than in my local area and its a beautiful place to do a bike ride.

The only advantage I foresee with my Delite is my leg muscles, lung capacity and lactate threshold will increase while pedaling with more crank resistance than the Stromer motor system. This will get me into really good shape by the time I can acquire a ST5. Always fun to dream of the next bike while recovering from a training ride.

 

[Johnny]

Damn! I am so tempted to take a drive to Madison and deplete my home repairs fund so I can test ride and buy an ST5. Much better price up there than in my local area and its a beautiful place to do a bike ride.

The only advantage I foresee with my Delite is my leg muscles, lung capacity and lactate threshold will increase while pedaling with more crank resistance than the Stromer motor system. This will get me into really good shape by the time I can acquire a ST5. Always fun to dream of the next bike while recovering from a training ride.

I always tried to keep an open mind. Though I already had bosch and yamaha mid drives I still went to try out ST3/ST5 one day and here I am. So be careful.

In terms of exercise it is all about how much you put in. On my exercise rides I keep it on level 1 (the lowest setting) and can still sustain around or above 25mph on the flattish sections, it feels very natural and smooth. When riding on pavement the ride feels far better (especially when you play with the settings a bit) than my bosch and yamaha bikes and you still put in the effort depending on the setting. Another thing I love about it is that the power delivery is not limited by your cadence, it is there even if you are mashing. Mainstream mids are sluggish at lower cadences, I tend to cap them even on lower settings when I mash which feels very unnatural to me.

That being said, It is not all roses and I would advice strongly to buy it from a shop close by or at least make sure that your local dealer can perform warranty repairs at a reasonable price.

In my opinion, this bike is one of the most(if not the most) fun to ride ebikes on the pavement especially as the rider gets stronger/leaner(yes fitter riders tend to like stromer more). I am no longer taking my other bikes when I go out solo for riding on the roads. Like @AbeK If I could keep only one ebike I would probably keep my st5 since I do most of my riding on the roads these days.

 

[Alanzo]

Mainstream mids are sluggish at lower cadences,

Yes, exactly what i notice. The Delite is counter productive when attempting to pedal in a large gear and works great with high cadence in the 3rd or 4th largest gears, not 1 or 2.

That being said, It is not all roses and I would advice strongly to buy it from a shop close by or at least make sure that your local dealer can perform warranty repairs at a reasonable price.

Local shop will not touch an out of state purchase. It's just the nature of the bike biz where I live. I have to drive to Madison to get service if I purchase from Lenny's. The rep I spoke with at Lenny's is really helpful with test ride setup and all. He offered an EXCELLENT Stromer price compared to the way overpriced markups in IL. Extremely tempting!

2 e-bikes will be a necessity if one breaks down in need of service. Can still continue riding while getting service.

In my opinion, this bike is one of the most(if not the most) fun to ride ebikes on the pavement especially as the rider gets stronger/leaner(yes fitter riders tend to like stromer more).

This is some mighty hard to resist serious ST5 temptation. I'll have something to think about after the Saturday long ride. May the bike gods help me make wise decisions about money, home repairs and the ST5.

 

[AbeK]

Yes, exactly what i notice. The Delite is counter productive when attempting to pedal in a large gear and works great with high cadence in the 3rd or 4th largest gears, not 1 or 2.


Local shop will not touch an out of state purchase. It's just the nature of the bike biz where I live. I have to drive to Madison to get service if I purchase from Lenny's. The rep I spoke with at Lenny's is really helpful with test ride setup and all. He offered an EXCELLENT Stromer price compared to the way overpriced markups in IL. Extremely tempting!

2 e-bikes will be a necessity if one breaks down in need of service. Can still continue riding while getting service.

This is some mighty hard to resist serious ST5 temptation. I'll have something to think about after the Saturday long ride. May the bike gods help me make wise decisions about money, home repairs and the ST5.

This reminds me of how I got my ST5. I had taken my R&M Superdelite in for its first scheduled maintenance in San Francisco, and I since I live about 30 miles away, I asked if I could borrow a bike to ride around Golden Gate Park until my bike was ready. The dealer loaned me an ST3. After a few hours of riding it, I was hooked. For the next two weeks I kept thinking about it until I couldn't resist any longer and went back to buy the ST5. I went with the ST5 rather than the ST3 largely because of the ST5's suspension and electronic shifting. The bit of extra power in the motor was nice, too. I haven't regretted the decision at all.

 

[Alanzo]

This reminds me of how I got my ST5. I had taken my R&M Superdelite in for its first scheduled maintenance in San Francisco, and I since I live about 30 miles away, I asked if I could borrow a bike to ride around Golden Gate Park until my bike was ready. The dealer loaned me an ST3. After a few hours of riding it, I was hooked. For the next two weeks I kept thinking about it until I couldn't resist any longer and went back to buy the ST5. I went with the ST5 rather than the ST3 largely because of the ST5's suspension and electronic shifting. The bit of extra power in the motor was nice, too. I haven't regretted the decision at all.

AbeK, I know this bike is not a Stromer. It just might be OK for 2-3 hr. fitness rides with some go fast moments. There is a dealer less than 20 miles away. Not exactly my dream e-bike but easier to deal with for service when needed in my local area. I can pretend to be a roadie on the drops with it.

You are fortunate to have an ST5!

 

[Johnny]

AbeK, I know this bike is not a Stromer. It just might be OK for 2-3 hr. fitness rides with some go fast moments. There is a dealer less than 20 miles away. Not exactly my dream e-bike but easier to deal with for service when needed in my local area. I can pretend to be a roadie on the drops with it.

You are fortunate to have an ST5!

That is a waste of money for your purpose unless you believe that riding a 42lbs bike unassisted at 32-33mph is a big feat. Instead just get a badassbox, some faster rolling tires and maybe innerbarends for your current bike.

 

[Alanzo]

That is a waste of money for your purpose unless you believe that riding a 42lbs bike unassisted at 32-33mph is a big feat. Instead just get a badassbox, some faster rolling tires and maybe innerbarends for your current bike.

Thanks Johny, I'll cross the Biulls off the list. I have been looking for lower rolling resistance than Schwalbe Moto X. All the 27.5 X 2.8 Vee Speedsters are out of stock online. Hoping there is another production run of this particular tire. If you know of any tire with lower RR for pavement please share what may work.

I have the Jones bar but need to revise the hydraulic brake lines & quite possibly extend the motor connecting lines. It's not a simple handlebar swap to get into a tuck. There is a shop about 30 miles away servicing Bosch than can rewire and replace the brake lines if needed but that might be a loooong wait time with no bike.

I could install a V3 tuning module BUT not sure if this will eventually blow the controller on the motor which is no longer in warranty. If the motor goes the bike will be toast.

I may be destined to Slowpokeville with my R&M for some time. The non e-bike stuff was so much easier to deal with. Swap components for a particular course and if something did not exist make a component with carbon fiber, epoxy resin, release film, bleeder cloth vacuum bag and a pump. This e-bike motor stuff is beyond my realm.

 

[Johnny]

Thanks Johny, I'll cross the Biulls off the list. I have been looking for lower rolling resistance than Schwalbe Moto X. All the 27.5 X 2.8 Vee Speedsters are out of stock online. Hoping there is another production run of this particular tire. If you know of any tire with lower RR for pavement please share what may work.

I have the Jones bar but need to revise the hydraulic brake lines & quite possibly extend the motor connecting lines. It's not a simple handlebar swap to get into a tuck. There is a shop about 30 miles away servicing Bosch than can rewire and replace the brake lines if needed but that might be a loooong wait time with no bike.

I could install a V3 tuning module BUT not sure if this will eventually blow the controller on the motor which is no longer in warranty. If the motor goes the bike will be toast.

I may be destined to Slowpokeville with my R&M for some time. The non e-bike stuff was so much easier to deal with. Swap components for a particular course and if something did not exist make a component with carbon fiber, epoxy resin, release film, bleeder cloth vacuum bag and a pump. This e-bike motor stuff is beyond my realm.

Hmm I have changed my bars with success on my Bosch mid drives. As long as your cables are long enough it is pretty straightforward.

Also lately I have been using these

I put them right in between the brakes and the grips. They work quite well as innerbarends. They are short but still decrease your frontal area hence decreases wind resistance, very similar to riding on the hoods. There are longer options, I am sure you are familiar with these from your TT experience. I like these short ones since the brakes are still accessible when needed.

I have never used V3, but the ones I know just remove the speed limit and that can not harm your motor or controller. In mid drives what matters is the output power/cadence which stay unchanged with these dongles so the motor can not run out of spec. The effect is the same as decreasing the wheel diameter. I like badassbox like dongles since they are very easy to put on and off. There are several people who have derestricted and going strong.

 

[Alanzo]

Hmm I have changed my bars with success on my Bosch mid drives. As long as your cables are long enough it is pretty straightforward.

Also lately I have been using these

I put them right in between the brakes and the grips. They work quite well as innerbarends. They are short but still decrease your frontal area hence decreases wind resistance, very similar to riding on the hoods. There are longer options, I am sure you are familiar with these from your TT experience. I like these short ones since the brakes are still accessible when needed.

I have never used V3, but the ones I know just remove the speed limit and that can not harm your motor or controller. In mid drives what matters is the output power/cadence which stay unchanged with these dongles so the motor can not run out of spec. The effect is the same as decreasing the wheel diameter. I like badassbox like dongles since they are very easy to put on and off. There are several people who have derestricted and going strong.

Thanks Johnny, I appreciate your feedback.

I'll try the bar ends or something similar and this will eliminate the need to swap the handlebar and revise the cables. I'll give the V3 a try as it arrived by DHL last week, Just waiting for the Bosch lockring tool to remove the plastic motor cover. The installation vid provides good reference. Your reply makes a difference with my initial reluctance for a minor tweak with the max limit of the motor. You also saved me from spending funds on a Falcon.