ST5 vs Riese & Muller mid drive for hills

[Oldman70]

I live in a very hilly area of Western North Carolina. I recently retired and am looking for an Ebike to ride locally. The roads around my house are extremely hilly but are nicely paved. The main roads are not so bad but a few miles to get to them. Can anyone comment of the hill climbing ability of the ST5 versus the R&M Bosch w/ Rohloff hub and belt drive? I read that hub motors don't climb well and are not geared for hills.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

I read that hub motors don't climb well and are not geared for hills.

This is more of a marketing garbage than true scientific data.
If you are not starting from a dead stop, hub motors climb just as well without stressing the drive train.If you have some momentum going, hub motors work just as well.
Mid-drives shine only in technical mountain biking terrain.

I suggest you rent an R-M E-bike from this dealer you for a day and see how you like it.

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Then, go and test ride an ST5 or St2-S from dealer near you.

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

If you don't have lot of real world data, it's very easy to push you into any direction I want. Nothing really beats a good test ride. I suggest you rent it for a day.

I once did 24,000 ft of total elevation in a span of 24 hours. if I pushed any mid-drive into that kind of speed and climbing, I would end up replacing the chain or cassette every month. Also, most drives operate at 36V compared to most hub drivess at 48V or 52V. Once you a ride a powerful bike like a ST5 or Juiced CCX , you will find that most other mid-drives are anemic. I am not sure how fit you are. A 30's something, fit man could manage well on either drives.

 

[MarkF]

Yes we all know how mid drives stress chains and hub motors not. What nonsense. Where's all the post of people breaking chains on mid drives?
There is a lot of info on this forum and in the reviews on this site to suggest mid drives work better for hills. Certain hub motors do work on hills better than others but saying they are better than mid drives is just not the case. Replacing a chain when it's time is a part of any bikes maintenance program.
Oldman70
There's a couple of reviews from bike reviewers and they agree that the ST5 is just not worth the price they want. I would look at the St2 if you like the Stromer.
Don't let the mid drive versus hub motor sway your decision. They both work fine so get the bike you like and if you can test ride one, even better.
My personal favorite is the R&M you listed. I'm sure it will climb hills just fine and look Ma, no chain

 

[steve mercier]

I live in a very hilly area of Western North Carolina. I recently retired and am looking for an Ebike to ride locally. The roads around my house are extremely hilly but are nicely paved. The main roads are not so bad but a few miles to get to them. Can anyone comment of the hill climbing ability of the ST5 versus the R&M Bosch w/ Rohloff hub and belt drive? I read that hub motors don't climb well and are not geared for hills.

I agree that you need to test ride some bikes since hub motors and mid motors feel quite different to ride! I have a 500 watt hub motor bike that climbs faster ,but I prefer my mid drive bike beacuse it behaves much more like a normal bike. Try them on rough surfaces too, not just hills. I found that one bike I tested was great for the first 20 miles until I hit a rocky patch and then I knew I wanted a bike with better shock dampening.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Here is a post by someone who has put thousands of miles on both drive systems.

https://electricbikereview.com/foru...haibike-sduro-trekking-5-0.26066/#post-172566

I ride both drive systems as well. 2 Bosch Speed bikes ( over 7000 miles) and a Stromer (with over 12,000 miles). For on-road riding and getting to a destination faster, I would pick the Stromer anyday.

@Oldman70

Without really understanding what kind of riding (frequency, mileage, terrain), it would be difficult to help you.

Trek has sale going on and it would be a great time to pick one or two. Or even rent one of them for couple of days.

Powerfly FS on sale for $4399

https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/...pension/powerfly-fs-5/p/23256/?colorCode=grey

Super Commuter for $4799.

https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/...uter/super-commuter-8s/p/17297/?colorCode=red

 

[steve mercier]

But really, Court has provided all the basic info through his reviews. So get thee to a cyclery !

 

[Johnny]

If we had power curve for (power - rpm) for the motors it would have given a definitive answer. Unfortunately most of the information we have is meaningless marketing(Torque values of those motors are complete nonesense, 65-75-80nm , well with that kind of torque at 70 rpm you ill be way over the rated 250-350W)

With a mid drive motor because of the gearing you can scale the torque at the rear wheel. When you are climbing for example you switch to a higher gear to hold the cadence higher where motor produces its peak value (or around it) while you are going slower. Hub motors on the other will not scale since they are on the rear wheel anyways so if you slow down too much the motor output will be much less than its peak and that is what concerns most.

But as Ravi states hub motor has many advantages since they are not using the bicycle's chain, etc. they can put much more power to the wheels. I am seeing mid drives around 350W while the good hubs seem to be giving 2 times of that. Also in a mid drive human and motor cadence are directly proportional, on a hub human cadence can be changed independently by shifting to a different gear at the same speed.

Bosch system on RM is good but it is not very powerful if you are cruising at higher speeds.

As others said you should take both bikes to those hills to see how you feel.

Good luck.

 

[Oldman70]

Thanks Johnny. This was really helpful as I could not understand why the Watts for the Riese & Muller was rated at only 250 - 350 and the ST5 was, I think at 650W. The roads around me are hilly but most are gradual in the elevation change. My problem is to get to the main roads is about a 2 to 3 mile ride from my house. I live in the mountains and the elevation changes for this portion of the ride are considerably more abrupt. From my house to the main road overall is a decrease in elevation but includes many agents as well as decent. It’s the ride back home that will be the worst. I thinks the Homage with the Rohloff has a wider gear range which would help on the hills. I do not want to have to transport the bike to the main roads. That kind of defeats the purpose.

I believe that the ST5 would be fine on the main roads and would be allot of fun. I like to overall look and cleaness of the ST5 as well. I’m sure the Homage would be fun too, just not as much.

I know I need to get out and test both. Nearest R&M dealer is 5 to 6 hours away in an area that is not as hilly. There is a Stromer dealer about 2 hours away but no ST5s to test. The owners ride allot near where I live and have offered to pick up the bike for service if needed when they are in the area which is near Asheville NC.

 

[steve mercier]

Thanks Johnny. This was really helpful as I could not understand why the Watts for the Riese & Muller was rated at only 250 - 350 and the ST5 was, I think at 650W. The roads around me are hilly but most are gradual in the elevation change. My problem is to get to the main roads is about a 2 to 3 mile ride from my house. I live in the mountains and the elevation changes for this portion of the ride are considerably more abrupt. From my house to the main road overall is a decrease in elevation but includes many agents as well as decent. It’s the ride back home that will be the worst. I thinks the Homage with the Rohloff has a wider gear range which would help on the hills. I do not want to have to transport the bike to the main roads. That kind of defeats the purpose.

I believe that the ST5 would be fine on the main roads and would be allot of fun. I like to overall look and cleaness of the ST5 as well. I’m sure the Homage would be fun too, just not as much.

I know I need to get out and test both. Nearest R&M dealer is 5 to 6 hours away in an area that is not as hilly. There is a Stromer dealer about 2 hours away but no ST5s to test. The owners ride allot near where I live and have offered to pick up the bike for service if needed when they are in the area which is near Asheville NC.

I have a R+M Charger GT tour. I live at the foot of the Coast mountains . It can climb any steep hill around here with no problem such as Hollyburn nountain which is over 4000 feet. If you need to climb off roads in the wet you might want to swap the Super Moto X tires for some knobbies to prevent tire slippage.

 

[Johnny]

Thanks Johnny. This was really helpful as I could not understand why the Watts for the Riese & Muller was rated at only 250 - 350 and the ST5 was, I think at 650W. The roads around me are hilly but most are gradual in the elevation change. My problem is to get to the main roads is about a 2 to 3 mile ride from my house. I live in the mountains and the elevation changes for this portion of the ride are considerably more abrupt. From my house to the main road overall is a decrease in elevation but includes many agents as well as decent. It’s the ride back home that will be the worst. I thinks the Homage with the Rohloff has a wider gear range which would help on the hills. I do not want to have to transport the bike to the main roads. That kind of defeats the purpose.

I believe that the ST5 would be fine on the main roads and would be allot of fun. I like to overall look and cleaness of the ST5 as well. I’m sure the Homage would be fun too, just not as much.

I know I need to get out and test both. Nearest R&M dealer is 5 to 6 hours away in an area that is not as hilly. There is a Stromer dealer about 2 hours away but no ST5s to test. The owners ride allot near where I live and have offered to pick up the bike for service if needed when they are in the area which is near Asheville NC.

I feel like for the terrain you are riding (the 2-3 mile hilly part close to your house) mid drive may be the better choice. Also you may appreciate the full suspension.

Those dealers are quite far away from you. As others suggested do you have a Trek dealer close by ? I think an FS powerfly should give you a very good idea about how you will like RM since they use the same Bosch system and similar in tire width, suspension etc.

 

[steve mercier]

Like Johnny said the Powerfly is a great choice too. They use the same motor and battery . My wife has a Powerfly 5. The biggest difference is the stock Bontrager knobby tires on the Trek which climb better off road , while the R+M stock tires have more flat protection. Both bikes are hardtails with good front forks , and the bikes have an almost identical range and climbing abilities when we travel together. The R+M comes with great lights, rack ,and fenders, and an awesome bike lock too.

 

[MarkF]

Any bike you get will be able to climb your hills. DD hub motors are gutless and need to be rated a higher wattage to get the power to the wheel. That's why you see ratings of 750, 1000 to 1500 watt ratings on them. Mid drives are smaller and lighter and take advantage of the gearing so they don't need to be as high a watt rating. But don't get caught up in ratings. Any ebike you choose will get you up your hills period. If you can't ride one at a dealer then get the one that appeals to you and enjoy your bike.

 

[steve mercier]

True dat MarkF. Having a dealer close to home for quicker support is very reassuring.

 

[Oldman70]

I stopped at a Specialized dealer with a very good reputation and they don't carry any of the Ebike models. Where I live Ebikes are not allowed on any trails. The only offload place would be a fire road which is not anywhere near me. Also once you hit a gate on these roads you are not allowed to ride there. I will check for a local Trek dealer.

 

[steve mercier]

so you cannot even ride a class 1 ebike on those trails ?

 

[Oldman70]

That is my understanding and confirmed by the bike shop. None of the local dealers carry any Ebikes that I am aware of. That is one of the reasons that I am looking for a strictly road bike. If I get the R&M Homage and they open up the rules around here I can just swap tires and I will be ready to go.

 

[Oldman70]

I have a R+M Charger GT tour. I live at the foot of the Coast mountains . It can climb any steep hill around here with no problem such as Hollyburn nountain which is over 4000 feet. If you need to climb off roads in the wet you might want to swap the Super Moto X tires for some knobbies to prevent tire slippage.View attachment 27589

Does that have the Bosch Performance CX motor (20 MPH)? If so do you feel restricted in speed vs the HS version?

 

[bluecat]

I ride both drive systems as well. 2 Bosch Speed bikes ( over 7000 miles) and a Stromer (with over 12,000 miles). For on-road riding and getting to a destination faster, I would pick the Stromer anyday.

@Oldman70

Without really understanding what kind of riding (frequency, mileage, terrain), it would be difficult to help you.

@Ravi Kempaiah Your experiences brings it to the point.

As such debate pop up from time to time (in CH), I'll add one more aspect: Most riders see a Stromer as sportbike. But there are also the lazy ones. They see a Stromer as a electric scooter and the pedaling as "symbolic" movement. If a hillclimb occurs, their speed drops soon below 20 km/h, the efficiency of the Stromer becomes lousy and the situation goes worse. Afterwards, they blame the Stormer being a weak bike. My answer in such cases is:

If you're willing to bring your own power in, the Stromer will reward you. If not, buy a mid-drive.

 

[steve mercier]

Does that have the Bosch Performance CX motor (20 MPH)? If so do you feel restricted in speed vs the HS version?

Yes it does . I like it fine . 20 mph on the flats is a comfortable speed at my age = 64. I dont feel the need for more speed. If you want to stay on the roads and want to go faster, perhaps an electric scooter like this instead?

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

That is my understanding and confirmed by the bike shop. None of the local dealers carry any Ebikes that I am aware of. That is one of the reasons that I am looking for a strictly road bike. If I get the R&M Homage and they open up the rules around here I can just swap tires and I will be ready to go.

I am sure there are Trek bike stores near you. They will be willing to get a demo Trek Super Commuter or some other bike.

@Ravi Kempaiah Your experiences brings it to the point.

As such debate pop up from time to time (in CH), I'll add one more aspect: Most riders see a Stromer as sportbike. But there are also the lazy ones. They see a Stromer as a electric scooter and the pedaling as "symbolic" movement. If a hillclimb occurs, their speed drops soon below 20 km/h, the efficiency of the Stromer becomes lousy and the situation goes worse. Afterwards, they blame the Stormer being a weak bike. My answer in such cases is: If you're willing to bring your own power in, the Stromer will reward you. If not, buy a mid-drive.

That has been my experience too. If you are willing to pedal, the SYNO drive works just as well. Actually, on short moderate hilly terrain, ST2 climbs better than my Bosch drives.
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