No Bafang used by mainstream bike manufactures.

[Feliz]

I did not say Juiced is hard to work on. I said I would not recommend it to anyone who is not mechanically inclined because a lot of components on Juiced are cheaply made and needs consistent repair.

Yes I do know that Juiced may have improved their customer service. I own Juiced Crosscurrent Air, even before they had digital display. So maybe things have changed.

But if I were to give an honest opinion about Juiced, they're not reliable.

Would I buy Juiced again? Sure because it's a bset bang for buck in terms of performance. But reliability? I don't know about that.

I wished they used better components as well, of course it's a trade off, better components and we would pay Spcialized prizes. I have a CCS and I've had no issues really. They sell bikes to people who want to go fast and they deliver on that. I think most of their bikes now would be mre reliable than your Air, on the other hand the CC Air was one of the best bargains ever in ebiking. You get what you pay for. I think the CCX is a real gem and wish they were available in Canada where I am.

 

[SirJonathan]

"I just follow Occam's Razor: the simplest explanation is usually correct. Juiced gets far more complaints than any other brand, therefore they are the least reliable."

Dan - This also could be true because there are more Juiced bikes being sold than any other manufacturer. Just by looking at this website under the Brand Forums the Juiced Forum absolutely dominates that other forums. It's Juiced and Rad and then the rest. If you've got 9000 posts under Juiced you're going to see quite a few more complaints. It's a very active community. If you go to the Yamaha Forum and there are 500 posts then there's going to be far fewer complaints.

There really isn't a BBB or CR for eBikes so you have to base your decision upon forums like this one. If you read 100 posts of people that were very unhappy with their Juiced bikes or service then that may be enough for you to make a decision and that's fair. I read through all of them, took a careful look at the date stamps on the problems, saw an increase in the support response times as time marched on and made the decision to purchase one.

Most people that are enthusiasts and very happy won't post. I somewhat fall into that category. I've had my CCX for about a month and still haven't put up my review. I have had zero problems with the bike and still haven't posted about it in detail. But sure enough, if I had an issue I probably would have posted that on day one and tried to resolve it with assistance here.

I have no problem with you writing off a brand based upon what you have read. You don't need to test it out. I bought a Tesla 7 years ago instead of a Karma Fisker based upon what I read. Never sat in either one of them. I made the right decision, obviously.

There's also the very real issue about justification of purchases. If I dropped $6K on a Stromer I'd probably be more inclined to post how wonderful it was and would take offense to those that wrote that it was unreliable. I try to be wary of doing that although I think human nature sometimes rears it's head.

But all in all I am super happy with my Juiced bike. Incredible power. Takes me up very long and steep hills at 15mph as I pedal lightly and smile. We'll see how it turns out in the long term. Honestly, I don't know how it will do. I'll report back here with updates and hopefully help others with their decisions.

 

[Feliz]

I think his point was, CR do not own actual products, all they do is gather consumers experiences.

Now, Internet can be unreliable because people can make fake accounts to attack competitors.

But if CR approached me to give a feedback on Juiced bikes, I would not tell any different story to CR than what I have told people here. And guess what, people (CR readers) will use my experience as Juiced customer as a valuable opinion.

Whether or not you believe me as a legitimate Juiced owner is up to you, I have posted my issues of my Juiced with pictures to add some credibility of my comments, but some people here still had problem with it.

Well, everyone knows most people receive a product, use it, and only complain on public forums when they have an issue with the product. If you go by what you read on the internet you're getting skewed information, I learned that in the eighties when I started following forums for cars, aircraft, motorcycles, cameras, boats, etc and it's the same now. If I only bought products that received good reviews I would own nothing. I have six eBikes and I've had no issues with any of them, nada.

 

[Feliz]

What's CCR? Did you mean CCS?

Anyways, I agree that Juiced bikes are performance bargain. I was looking at Stromer and there's no way I would be spending that much money.

Would I buy Juiced again? My answer is always yes because I know how to work on my bikes.

But to people that are less mechanically inclined? I would have to say no.. I would recommend Pedego or something.

I meant CC-S, sorry.

 

[SirJonathan]

I should also add that another very important point was that I live about an hour's drive from Juiced HQ. It's a very beautiful and easy drive on the I-5 along the ocean and my wife and I do it often to head into San Diego. I knew that if I had any problem I could literally pop the bike in the car and head down for some assistance. If I need a part and they have it in stock I can get it in one day UPS ground. Others do not have that luxury and should factor that into the equation.

I also have an LBS that I've been with for 20 years. They'll help me with anything I need - electric or not. We've probably purchased 20 bikes from them over the years for my me, my wife and my kids. I'm not great with a wrench but I can get by. I have a Park stand and a complete tool set and can change cassettes and pull cranks. Minor adjustments. But anything with the motor I need to rely on YouTube and this forum.

Lastly, I have probably the best weather in the world to ride bikes in 24/7 and 365 days a year. No snow, ice, salt, very little rain, paved bike paths that are swept every week. I've had one flat in 50,000 road miles. I know that's unusual.

All of this factored into my decision and made it right for me. It may be wrong for you.

 

[Feliz]

Yet JuicedBikes' complaint thread is 4x as long as Rad's. You are implying or claiming that Juiced sells 4X as many bikes as Rad. I seriously doubt Juiced has a 4 to 1 edge in bike sales vs Rad.

Dan, I don't think anyone would disagree that Juiced previously had a lot more than their share of complaints, as someone who has a newer Juiced bike and read every post on the Juiced thread I think they've turned it around. I think they tried to accomplish to much in a short time, that seems to be Tora's nature.

 

[Feliz]

These bikes aren't rocket science, virtually every part is made by someone else not Juiced, Rad, or anyone else. In fact most parts are made in the same factories.

 

[DDBB]

"bafang" doesn't sound as good as "Bosch"...

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

ANYWAY, back to Bafang. No one's answered the question as to why the big manufacturers won't spec them. This forces us to speculate and as i've said before the R&D edge and possibly the reliability edge is probably decisive.

There was some effort back in 2017 to improve the situation of Bafang w.r.t the US market. LEVA folks gathered inputs from dealers, reviewers, customers and other companies to see how best they could get Bafang to have a bigger presence and serve the US market.

The consensus among the manufacturers is that, drive manufactuers i.e., Bosch, Yamaha, Shimano want to serve the EU market which is 1000 times bigger than the US market.
They offer tremendous subsidies, support and build integration at scale, which makes it harder for Bafang to compete. Bafang does not have the network that Bosch, Shimano or Brose enjoys with their dealers and manufactuers.
For a manufacturer who promises a contract of 10,000 bikes/year, a Bosch CX motor may cost $250-300 and a 500whr battery $350 or so. At that pricepoints, Bafang can't compete with all the extra tariffs they have to pay.
Haibike, BULLS, Raleigh, R&M, Scott, etc release their products for the EU customers and all the resources are focused into that market.

For Bafang, they serve the Asian market and dominate there.

The Asian market is something like 10-20 million units or more/year
The EU market is something like 1-2 million units/year or something in that ballpark.
the US market is tiny compared to those.

For a fact, in 2016, roughly 1 million Bosch units were sold in the whole of EU. Only 8000 Bosch motors were sold in the US. Compare 1,000,000 to 8000. It's super tiny ratio. That's why they don't care to release their NYON display here.
https://www.bosch-presse.de/pressportal/de/en/the-ebike-market-has-the-wind-behind-it-79296.html

Bafang sells 10 times more than that in the Asian market, so they don't care much about the US market but they do care about the EU market. But, EU folks are imposing anti-dumping tariffs on those to maintain their competitive advantage.

 

[Angela M.]

Temporarily closing this thread while I do some cleanup.

 

[Angela M.]

I've deleted & edited comments that I felt were baiting and name calling. Some comments are borderline but I think for the most part the discussion is healthy. Please let's get back on track to Bafang. Thanks everyone!

 

[DDBB]

Say, what kind of motor is on your e-bike.. "it's Bafang".... a what?........

 

[BrocLuno]

1.) I think this discussion is overly USA centric ... Bafang makes lots of OEM stuff. I really like their H400 geared rear hub motor solution (look (Link Removed - No Longer Exists) ), but I could not find a vendor in the USA or Canada. I wanted their sleek 4-cable sine wave controller so I could tidy up the install. But neither Bafang USA nor anyone on Alibaba would sell me one.

So I wrote to Bafang. They are running as fast as they can supplying their domestic market (which dwarfs ours). Min order 1K units, and they wanted to know the name of my company and my product line ...

2.) Europe is far ahead of the USA in development of the eBike market. Folks over there have been buying eBikes for commuting for decades. Prolly the Dutch market alone is bigger than the USA market ...

3.) They (the EU) have a coherent strategy for eBike and scooter transportation to alleviate congestion. They encourage using the separate bike path system as long as you are not to powerful or fast.

4.) Over here, it's the cowboys and yahoos building eBikes to go 40 mph and posting on YouTube. It's what the lawmakers see, so they want to lump them in with Mopeds ...

5.) We have folks in out local jurisdiction riding Stromers and mostly keeping up with town traffic. Seems folks want real quality in a street eBike. They will pay for quality. They will pay for service. They want reliable dealer networks. A lot of that is not happening with the brands the OP cited initially ... I suspect that Brose, Bosche, et al have really good integration and a solid warranty program ... And that is the selling point at the OEM/MFG level.

We need a coherent nationwide strategy for eBikes and S-pedalecs. Then the market would coalesce around solid components like OEM controllers. None of the boutique brands has sleek OEM controllers. They all have tin-box universal units that are awkward to cable. The USA market may not be in its infancy, but it is certainly in its childhood ...

And the kit I bought was not Bafang because their USA/Canada dealers do not sell a mid-drive with built in TQ sensing ...

 

[DDBB]

I have to admit, I'd love to try that FLX blade with the bafang mid drive. Can't justify 4k for it though, maybe if it had full suspension

 

[BrocLuno]

The one I'm building does not have a throttle. If I want that experience, I just hop on my Honda and go. The experience I'm looking for is not an electric motorcycle, it's pedal assistance. I want the power delivery directed by my pedaling effort. The harder I pedal, the more it should aid ...

I think a lot of throttle owners are motorcycle emulators, at least in part ...

I'm using a TSZD2 as a range extender, headwind fighter, and steep slope aid. The bicycle is still a bicycle and must be pedaled to move

there is gray area where one can be a sort of bicycle. But at some point, it's no longer a bicycle. It's some other kind of machine ...

 

[linklemming]

The one I'm building does not have a throttle. If I want that experience, I just hop on my Honda and go. The experience I'm looking for is not an electric motorcycle, it's pedal assistance. I want the power delivery directed by my pedaling effort. The harder I pedal, the more it should aid ...

I think a lot of throttle owners are motorcycle emulators, at least in part ...

I'm using a TSZD2 as a range extender, headwind fighter, and steep slope aid. The bicycle is still a bicycle and must be pedaled to move

there is gray area where one can be a sort of bicycle. But at some point, it's no longer a bicycle. It's some other kind of machine ...

Do you plan on running the opensource software available for the TSDZ2 being discussed on endless-sphere. Im running it and its awesome. Im also running the brass gear which is a little noiser than I would like but doable.

I also just dont get the throttle and I spent many years on motorcycles. I maidened my Juiced CCX today and the throttle was so uninspiring. People claim it helps them get up to speed faster from a stop, I would hate to rely on that as it seems like the slowest way to get up to speed, The CCX has a mode where when you give throttle from a stop and pedal it will temporarily boost power to 1000watts, will try that tomorrow but Im considering taking off the throttle altogether.

 

[SirJonathan]

Do you plan on running the opensource software available for the TSDZ2 being discussed on endless-sphere. Im running it and its awesome. Im also running the brass gear which is a little noiser than I would like but doable.

I also just dont get the throttle and I spent many years on motorcycles. I maidened my Juiced CCX today and the throttle was so uninspiring. People claim it helps them get up to speed faster from a stop, I would hate to rely on that as it seems like the slowest way to get up to speed, The CCX has a mode where when you give throttle from a stop and pedal it will temporarily boost power to 1000watts, will try that tomorrow but Im considering taking off the throttle altogether.

I ride on this paved two-lane bike path that goes from the mountains to the ocean and never crosses a road. There are numerous underpasses, however, and some of them can be pretty steep. I find the throttle is extremely useful to boost up these underpasses. Gravity takes you only so far and about halfway up the hill I just flip the throttle and I'm going 20mph all the way up the hill with very little pedal effort. It's a game changer for me.

 

[Feliz]

Biktrix sells a Bafang mid drive with throttle, they even have the ultra with torque sensor. Types of bikes are limited but they're selling like hot cakes.

I have one of their bikes with a BBSHD drive and it makes my Bosch mid drives seem like slugs in comparison. I'm only referencing power as that's the attraction with the Bafang mid drives, not refinement.

 

[Feliz]

Do you plan on running the opensource software available for the TSDZ2 being discussed on endless-sphere. Im running it and its awesome. Im also running the brass gear which is a little noiser than I would like but doable.

I also just dont get the throttle and I spent many years on motorcycles. I maidened my Juiced CCX today and the throttle was so uninspiring. People claim it helps them get up to speed faster from a stop, I would hate to rely on that as it seems like the slowest way to get up to speed, The CCX has a mode where when you give throttle from a stop and pedal it will temporarily boost power to 1000watts, will try that tomorrow but Im considering taking off the throttle altogether.

I agree about throttles, I restored, rode, and raced motorcycles most of my adult life just selling my last seven MC off when I turned 80 and turned to eBikes, I have bikes with throttles a never use them, maybe very rarely as a novelty......a throttle just doesn't seem right.

 

[Slow Rider]

Here's an article that talks about the importance of ebike motors and name brand recognition. Bafang wasn't mentioned by name.

E-Bikes: What Really Matters When Making a Purchase Decision