My Thoughts on Mid Drive..Hub Drive and Throttle

[6zfshdb]

My point wasn't that hub motors break spokes all the time, it was the opposite. Hub motor bikes break spokes more frequently, but still only occasionally. Mid-drives break chains even less frequently. So neither is a big issue, yet the mid-drive breaking chains point is brought up disproportionately frequently to how minor a potential issue it is IMO. Yet a slightly more frequent issue (hub motors breaking spokes) is rarely if ever brought up.

I certainly wouldn't make either broken spokes *or* broken chains a significant factor in any e-bike purchasing decision!

I'm a heavy rider and even though I'm well within the weight rating of the bikes I ride, broken spokes have been a problem for decades. When shopping for my first ebike, mag wheels were high on my list of "must have" options. Unfortunately, mag wheels aren't common on ebikes, especially hub drives. Aftermarket mags can be added to mid drive models though.

I have over 2000 miles on my hub drive bike with mags and have had no wheel related issues. Without spoke holes, mags are also tubless tire friendly.

 

[Nomad]

So in regards to gearing a hub drive weather it's a geared one or not what gear the bike it self is in doesn't have an effect on it ability to help other then how fast the person pedals and only up to the cut of speed and provided the hub it self is geared to handle the grade??? and mid drive is effect dirrectly by what gear the bike is in as well how you pedal??? Is this correct?

 

[AHicks]

So in regards to gearing a hub drive weather it's a geared one or not what gear the bike it self is in doesn't have an effect on it ability to help other then how fast the person pedals and only up to the cut of speed and provided the hub it self is geared to handle the grade??? and mid drive is effect dirrectly by what gear the bike is in as well how you pedal??? Is this correct?

Geared hubs pretty much all use a 5:1 gear ratio, which works well from a stop on up to about 20 mph. They're most effective getting the bike moving in a hurry and then from say 10 mph to 15mph. They're capable of faster, but they are running past their peak we'll say. If you are known for pulling up to a stop and forgetting to downshift, the hub drive may work out better for you. It doesn't care what gear you start out in.

A mid drive has the gearing advantage of any gear the bike has available, including a granny gear used for climbing walls. They're both nice and peppy systems, especially as compared to a direct drive, which really doesn't start coming into it's own until about 15mph.

Personally, for my purposes, I believe the mid drive price is hard to justify.

 

[indianajo]

So in regards to gearing a hub drive weather it's a geared one or not what gear the bike it self is in doesn't have an effect on it ability to help other then how fast the person pedals and only up to the cut of speed and provided the hub it self is geared to handle the grade??? and mid drive is effect dirrectly by what gear the bike is in as well how you pedal??? Is this correct?

My 1200 W geared hub drive handles 15% grades well at 330 lb gross, and a bit more that I haven't measured yet. You can help it in any gear you want. I have 32:32 to 52:11 sprocket ratios on my bike left, so there are a wide range of speeds pedaling unpowered. As mine is a kit installed on an unpowered bike, there is no speed cutoff. I think the geared hub goes up to about 25 mph but haven't been on good flat pavement since they dug up the bike path along hwy 62 near Charlestown last spring. I've had it up to 35 mph downhill but the hill does the work. I had the 1000W DD drive on that flat smooth pavement up over 25 mph I believe, with me sitting upright like a barn door.
What geared hub drives won't do is take you up a 2000' rise in 25 minutes. They don't have a radiator cap to blow steam in your face to warn you of overheating. So they just burn up the windings. West Coast US stores won't sell them because customers take them right out and do that, requiring a warranty repair. On roller hills in the rest of the country excluding the Rockies, they are quite capable.

 

[Nomad]

Geared hubs pretty much all use a 5:1 gear ratio, which works well from a stop on up to about 20 mph. They're most effective getting the bike moving in a hurry and then from say 10 mph to 15mph. They're capable of faster, but they are running past their peak we'll say. If you are known for pulling up to a stop and forgetting to downshift, the hub drive may work out better for you. It doesn't care what gear you start out in.

A mid drive has the gearing advantage of any gear the bike has available, including a granny gear used for climbing walls. They're both nice and peppy systems, especially as compared to a direct drive, which really doesn't start coming into it's own until about 15mph.

Personally, for my purposes, I believe the mid drive price is hard to justify.

So I'm correct in my thinking

 

[FlatSix911]

So I'm correct in my thinking

So in regards to gearing a hub drive whether it's a geared one or not what gear the bike itself is in doesn't have an effect on it ability to help other than how fast the person pedals and only up to the cut of speed and provided the hub itself is geared to handle the grade??? and mid-drive is effect directly by what gear the bike is in as well how you pedal??? Is this correct?

Yes, correct.

 

[tomjasz]

Are you all finished hijacking this thread?

Nah. There we go having fun!

 

[tomjasz]

My 1200 W geared hub drive handles 15% grades well at 330 lb gross,

Hey Jo!

Whose hub motor is rater at 1200W and climbs 15%!!! That's really steep! A MAC would start frying eggs in 6 minutes! at 4MPH.

 

[indianajo]

Hey Jo!

Whose hub motor is rater at 1200W and climbs 15%!!! That's really steep! A MAC would start frying eggs in 6 minutes! at 4MPH.

It is a ebikeling from 2017, power circle is the logo on the rim.
As I told you before, our 15% grades are 100' to 150' long, followed by nearly the same grade downhill. So the motor gets plenty of rest between steep grades. Also I'm moving usually 15-30 mph when I hit the grade, so the motor is up in the efficient power band instead of lugging at 4 mph. I cross 77 hills in 30 miles, but the uphill is only about 200'. I've done it with continuous power into a 25 mph wind, but that was on the downhill direction at average 8 mph.
Mostly I ride 23 miles unpowered, just the last 7 miles that I added to get off flatter 55 mph hwy 3 do I use power always. 3.5 hour trip usually, unless wind is 25 mph behind me.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Hey Jo!

Whose hub motor is rater at 1200W and climbs 15%!!! That's really steep! A MAC would start frying eggs in 6 minutes! at 4MPH.

All I can say is that a Bosch CX is rated at about 250w and probably puts out around 375-450w under realistic conditions, and I'm climbing a much steeper hill than that with less (e.g. zero) ability to get a run at the hill.

When I originally posted, I said:

... all other things being equal, a mid drive will climb a steeper hill than a hub drive.

Whatever the rated power of a Bosch CX is, I know it is much much less than 1200w. So I think you guys proved my point. If you had sticky enough tires I suspect a Bosch CX that put out 1200w would climb the cables of Half Dome.

 

[tomjasz]

As I told you before, our 15% grades are 100' to 150' long, followed by nearly the same grade downhill.

So you think everyone here has read your disclaimer? No, what readers see and read is some guy around 330LBS blasts up 15% grades. You imply gear drives will do that. So again how does that help someone considering a geared hub? Taken at face value some poor sucker would be very disappointed.

 

[indianajo]

So you think everyone here has read your disclaimer? No, what readers see and read is some guy around 330LBS blasts up 15% grades. You imply gear drives will do that. So again how does that help someone considering a geared hub? Taken at face value some poor sucker would be very disappointed.

If you've ever driven or read the side of a truck, gross weight means vehicle, load, driver, fuel, spare tires. I'm 165, the bike is 75, the load 60-90 on the uphill leg.

 

[tomjasz]

If you've ever driven or read the side of a truck, gross weight means vehicle, load, driver, fuel, birds. I'm 165, the bike is 75, the load 60-90 on the uphill leg.

Still on face an exaggeration without a disclaimer. Given a MAC is afar better motor than ebikeling, and it will fry in 6 minutes at 3.5MPH...

So I think you guys proved my point. I

Um, I've always known my mid drives will outclimb a hub in most situations. AND be more efficient. I do also think they are oversold and overly complicated and take my ability for home repair away. In my current situation, I have no reason to run mid drives. But since I bought them I do ride them. My little 350W are near completely silent. My MAC completely smokes most mid-drives on the flats. Mind I'm not s speed demon but that power surge is great when needing to cross a busy street or get out of someone's way. BANG POWER!

 

[Mass Deduction]

So I'm correct in my thinking

Yes, if I understood you correctly, your thinking is correct. Hub motors are typically either not geared at all, or geared to an arbitrary ratio (5:1 being most common). Whereas with a mid-drive, when you change gears you're changing what gear the motor is trying to turn over.

 

[DougC]

Unfortunately our local REI failed to make my cut. The bike head service guy makes no effort to hide his disdain for ebikes. Love me, love my ebike.

Interesting. I had the same experience at the SLC REI when I was first looking for an ebike 3 years ago. I've been going to REI since I was a kid in the 70s. My dad would drive from San Jose up to the then only REI in the bay area, which was in Berkeley, to get backpacking stuff. I still buy stuff from them, like the very comfortable Vuori sweats (made in China) I'm wearing now, but when I was looking for an IZip ebike that they supposedly carried the upper middle aged guy I talked to was clearly an anti ebike snob. I was surprised they even carried them there given his attitude. If it is pervasive through out REI, which maybe it is, it explains why the ebike selection they had there was very limited. Since then I've purchased two Trek ebikes from an LBS in Orem. It is much closer to where I live and has really good tech service. REI missed out on at least $3K in bike sales.

 

[Nomad]

Yes, if I understood you correctly, your thinking is correct. Hub motors are typically either not geared at all, or geared to an arbitrary ratio (5:1 being most common). Whereas with a mid-drive, when you change gears you're changing what gear the motor is trying to turn over.

part of my point is how you would increase the performance in either system is different. For one you are more of a part of the equation with a mid drive your shifting is more of a factor. A hub drive with 2 or more speeds would increase it's range of preformance.

 

[indianajo]

A hub drive with 2 or more speeds would increase it's range of preformance.

Would increase unsprung weight, cost, and be incompatible with european top speed regulation which is 90% of the market. Be much cheaper to increase quality of the bearings, gears, and upgrade the lubricant, to allow the electric rotor to spin 10000 rpm. Dental drills do it, indi car motors do it, why not an ebike?
These ~$200 geared hub motors are low quality components that are meant to be thrown away soon. I'm surprised mine has lasted 3000 miles. Plastic gears? mass destruction is insisting on parts support for any hub motor he sells, which I view as rediculous for a component costing less than most carbon fiber components of the bike, or high end sprocket/crank/bearing groupsets either.
I tried to buy a high quality $2100 geared hub from a swiss wheelchair motor manufacturer, with heat loss fins no less, but no "US distributor" would even answer my emails. Americans want trash from ***** and anybody that wants something else is obviously insane.

 

[Nomad]

Would increase unsprung weight, cost, and be incompatible with european top speed regulation which is 90% of the market. Be much cheaper to increase quality of the bearings, gears, and upgrade the lubricant, to allow the electric rotor to spin 10000 rpm. Dental drills do it, indi car motors do it, why not an ebike?

wouldn't higher rpm still only have a sweet spot another words like some race bikes you have to keep rpms up or she's a dog?

 

[Mass Deduction]

Would increase unsprung weight, cost, and be incompatible with european top speed regulation which is 90% of the market. Be much cheaper to increase quality of the bearings, gears, and upgrade the lubricant, to allow the electric rotor to spin 10000 rpm. Dental drills do it, indi car motors do it, why not an ebike?
These ~$200 geared hub motors are low quality components that are meant to be thrown away soon. I'm surprised mine has lasted 3000 miles. Plastic gears? mass destruction is insisting on parts support for any hub motor he sells, which I view as rediculous for a component costing less than most carbon fiber components of the bike, or high end sprocket/crank/bearing sets either.
I tried to buy a high quality $2100 geared hub from a swiss wheelchair motor manufacturer, with heat loss fins no less, but no "US distributor" would even answer my emails. Americans want trash from ***** and anybody that wants something else is obviously insane.

Parts availability doesn't necessarily mean opening up the motor and repairing it. It could be a brand new motor. It could be battery packs, wiring harnesses, screens, etc. I just don't want someone to, for example, damage their screen and now it's a hassle to replace it. I don't think that's ridiculous.

 

[AHicks]

wouldn't higher rpm still only have a sweet spot another words like some race bikes you have to keep rpms up or she's a dog?

Electric motors can be wound differently for specific applications. You'll see this often in the hub motors (both types). You can get a motor wound for lots of initial torque and a relatively low top speed (say 20 mph), or the opposite, a motor wound for speed with relatively low torque. Of course with production bikes you have little say over what is used. But the MAC gear driven hubs for instance, take pride in the different winds they offer to demanding customers (willing to pay top dollar for a geared hub).