Juiced Bikes Rip Current

[Lenny7118]

Has anyone got any information regarding the next batch of RipCurrent S bikes? I ordered mine at the end of March based on an Early May delivery proomise. Without having to deal with the Chinese New Year slowdown that backed up the last batch, Early May seemed realistic. But Juiced's history of missing deadlines isn't making me confident either. If anyone knows whether the second batch is either on schedule or behind schedule I'd appreciate hearing from you.

Thanks!

I agree with you. Juiced can’t keep up with customer demand but when they have have a new bike they sure push it and for people to order it but delivery is very slow and can be months away.
I’ve been asking about the HyperFat and I keep getting different answers from Juiced. I was told by the Sales team that they HyperFat’s are made and juiced is just waiting for batteries. Well than I asked the question again with in a week this time on the on line chat and they told me that the HyperFat’s aren’t made but in the process of being made.
I also asked about a RipCurrentS to buy from the next batch but I get the same type of run around.
@Tora Harris can you clear up the questions customers have about the HyperFat and RipCurrentS.

Thanks

 

[tomjasz]

Sounds like they are funding the builds and determining unit number by customer orders. Am I wrong in assuming people are paying months in advance?

 

[Barry S]

Sounds like they are funding the builds and determining unit number by customer orders. Am I wrong in assuming people are paying months in advance?

I think you hit the nail on the head. Low risk when you don't build something not yet paid for.

 

[jazz]

Yes it's basically the crowdfunding model without the crowdfunding platform but not unlike what Biktrix, Sondors are many other ebike companies do now

 

[Bruce Arnold]

Yes it's basically the crowdfunding model without the crowdfunding platform

Not sure about the RCS, but I'd say that was correct for the first two go-rounds on the CCS.

The 3rd time, they increased production by the hundreds. Still sold out. It looked like they were trying to get to a place where they just had them in stock but demand caught up with them before that happened. Seems they can't make them fast enough.

This is a good problem for a manufacturer to have. The problem becomes, do we ramp up production even higher, with the inevitable glitches in quality control? Or do we continue to produce as good a product we can with the production capacity we have?

These are not simple questions. There's a point in most expansions where adding capacity affects quality, unless you put way more money into quality control, which then has to be recouped through higher prices.

Adding product lines increases the complexity. The RCS isn't just a CCS with a different motor and fat tires.

I had to ask myself, when I ordered my CCS last September (2nd batch), "Do I want to be an early adopter with all that entails, or do I want to go with a well-established product that is readily available?" I decided that the CCS was intriguing enough that I was willing to take some risks. Had to wait a few months before getting it -- they decided to re-spoke all the wheels before shipping -- but I'm really glad I held out.

I hope those who've ordered the RCS will have the same experience.

And, if I were a betting man, I'd wager that a year from now we won't be having this discussion here on EBR about the RCS or the CCS. People will order their bikes and get them soon after. If you're watching the quality improvement process at Juiced Bikes as I have been, that's the trend I see. Ironing out problems with supply, ironing out problems with hardware, and last but not least ironing out problems with customer service.

 

[tomjasz]

Yes it's basically the crowdfunding model without the crowdfunding platform but not unlike what Biktrix, Sondors are many other ebike companies do now

Thanks for the reminder. Perhaps it's just generational, but it's a model I find unexciting and exploitive. BUT I build and am unaffected.

 

[Asher]

Sounds like they are funding the builds and determining unit number by customer orders. Am I wrong in assuming people are paying months in advance?

Personally I doubt it. They're a semi established company, and floating $1-1.5k for a couple weeks isn't a big cost.

Bruce's explanation is sound and quite plausible - do you have any manufacturing experience Bruce?

Another possible factor is factory priority. Chinese bike factories have been in overdrive making bikeshare bikes for huge customers, by the tens or hundreds of thousands. Small customers are apt to get bumped off the line when a big customer comes and places a big order. Even if it's making more ebikes than Trek, it doesn't have the connections Trek would to get its production in play.

 

[tomjasz]

Personally I doubt it. They're a semi established company, and floating $1-1.5k for a couple weeks isn't a big cost.

Bruce's explanation is sound and quite plausible - do you have any manufacturing experience Bruce?

Another possible factor is factory priority. Chinese bike factories have been in overdrive making bikeshare bikes for huge customers, by the tens or hundreds of thousands. Small customers are apt to get bumped off the line when a big customer comes and places a big order. Even if it's making more ebikes than Trek, it doesn't have the connections Trek would to get its production in play.

How else do you explain taking money months before delivery?

 

[Asher]

How else do you explain taking money months before delivery?

Actually, they don't take orders for more than one production lot ahead at a time. Depending on your model, color and size selection, it will say "add to cart" (available in warehouse now) "pre-order" (coming on next shipment) or an unclickable "Sold Out" (even the next shipment has sold out). Even though I'm sure they plan to produce, say, Black CCSes in L again eventually.

And even that aside, I guarantee customers who put money down are much more likely to get the bike, than customers who must come back weeks/months later to put an order in. So an early order is a way to soft-lock the customer in.

 

[tomjasz]

Actually, they don't take orders for more than one production lot ahead at a time. Depending on your model, color and size selection, it will say "add to cart" (available in warehouse now) "pre-order" (coming on next shipment) or an unclickable "Sold Out" (even the next shipment has sold out). Even though I'm sure they plan to produce, say, Black CCSes in L again eventually.

And even that aside, I guarantee customers who put money down are much more likely to get the bike, than customers who must come back weeks/months later to put an order in. So an early order is a way to soft-lock the customer in.

This reads more like a shill than an actual understanding. If not a shill, certainly naive. I apologize in advance for being so direct, but it’s clear they fund themselves with others money. IMO an$ accident waiting to happen. But then, I’m old and cynical.

 

[Asher]

This reads more like a shill than an actual understanding. If not a shill, certainly naive. I apologize in advance for being so direct, but it’s clear they fund themselves with others money. IMO an$ accident waiting to happen. But then, I’m old and cynical.

It's called occam's razor.

Talk to any salesman and ask him if you think a deposit helps lock in the sale. It's letting laziness/inertia work in your favor.

Let's say they have $1m in orders, with 1.5 months between the order and delivery. 4.5% interest. They save... $5.6k, 0.6%. whoop de Doo. You go get rich on 0.6% cash carry and let us know. Sure, it may help with cash flow and payroll, but it's not a Ponzi scheme, and it's not going to make anyone rich. At most it's cheaper access to capital.

You didn't refute anything I said, you just called me a name. And I've never heard of anyone complaining about crowdfunding because a company held their money for 6 weeks before delivery - the complaints are about waiting several months or years (Copenhagen wheel anyone?), or delivering a product that didn't live up to advertised claims. Or the people just outright bolt with the cash. Griping about preorders because they're preorders... Well that's a new one.

 

[Lenny7118]

This reads more like a shill than an actual understanding. If not a shill, certainly naive. I apologize in advance for being so direct, but it’s clear they fund themselves with others money. IMO an$ accident waiting to happen. But then, I’m old and cynical.

Hello, I agree with your comment and YES it’s an accident waiting to happen.
I wonder what other name brand e bikes are made at the factory that Juiced Bikes uses?
I’m old too, I don’t like to get the run around and no room for patience.

 

[Bruce Arnold]

Bruce's explanation is sound and quite plausible - do you have any manufacturing experience Bruce?

Nope, no experience in manufacturing. I'm a mental health professional ("Dr. Bruce" when I'm on the clock.) Oddly enough, a lot of these same principles apply in our biz. I see it all the time. Aggressive new doc or agency shows up, makes a good reputation early on, has more business than they can handle, tries to expand -- and if they do it right, it works, but most of them either don't plan for the need for better administration to handle the new level of complexity (it's not just a matter of cutting more paychecks), or they run afoul of audits from Medicaid because they didn't manage their medical records well, or they hired whoever was available instead of good quality providers, or that fancy new office in the next town over has too much overhead to sustain itself, or they just get sloppy. I guess, to some extent, business is business, whatever business you're in.

 

[Solom01]

Since they apparently charge your credit card as soon as you place a pre-order the risk you're taking is that if they file for bankruptcy for any reason (and it could be something as simple as a new tariff on Chinese goods, major shipping increases, etc.) as an unsecured creditor you can kiss your money goodbye. If there is any other reason why you want out, such as a shipping delay or what not, you can charge that amount back by calling your cc company. Most reputable banks will charge the merchant back and refund your money so long as you're not engaging in fraudulent behavior. If you charge it to a credit card that you run a balance on (not a great idea) you also get to pay interest on an item you haven't received. So it's all down to your risk tolerance, so long as you are aware that if they go under you're probably hosed.

 

[Asher]

Since they apparently charge your credit card as soon as you place a pre-order the risk you're taking is that if they file for bankruptcy for any reason (and it could be something as simple as a new tariff on Chinese goods, major shipping increases, etc.) as an unsecured creditor you can kiss your money goodbye. If there is any other reason why you want out, such as a shipping delay or what not, you can charge that amount back by calling your cc company. Most reputable banks will charge the merchant back and refund your money so long as you're not engaging in fraudulent behavior. If you charge it to a credit card that you run a balance on (not a great idea) you also get to pay interest on an item you haven't received. So it's all down to your risk tolerance, so long as you are aware that if they go under you're probably hosed.

This is accurate for a debit card, but it looks like for a credit card purchase, you can get your money back if it's within 120 days.

https://m.mic.com/articles/182435/g...id-goes-bankrupt-before-you-got-your-purchase

 

[Chris Hammond]

Hell it seems like some people will never be happy. Most businesses that have a product in very high demand end up increasing prices to capitalize on the high demand and drive up profit, with zero benefit to the customer. Here Juiced is clearly making both the CCS and RCS that they can't keep in stock at all. So now we see people complaining that they are taking orders on product for their next shipment???? Really. If Juiced was truly a one man show and new to the market then your concerns would be more valid, but they have been in the ebike business for almost a decade and from all appearances seem to be planning for a long future.

 

[Asher]

Hell it seems like some people will never be happy. Most businesses that have a product in very high demand end up increasing prices to capitalize on the high demand and drive up profit, with zero benefit to the customer. Here Juiced is clearly making both the CCS and RCS that they can't keep in stock at all. So now we see people complaining that they are taking orders on product for their next shipment???? Really. If Juiced was truly a one man show and new to the market then your concerns would be more valid, but they have been in the ebike business for almost a decade and from all appearances seem to be planning for a long future.

I just spoke with a shop owner who has worked with Tora in the past. He said that Tora is constantly in China dealing with iffy suppliers, when he could use more responsible reliable ones for a couple hundred bucks more. He insisted the alternative bikes weren't that much more and I disagree (especially in terms of battery for buck), but I didn't want to quibble with him. So if this is even half true, Tora is working hard to give consumers a considerable deal.

 

[tomjasz]

Hell it seems like some people will never be happy. Most businesses that have a product in very high demand end up increasing prices to capitalize on the high demand and drive up profit, with zero benefit to the customer. Here Juiced is clearly making both the CCS and RCS that they can't keep in stock at all. So now we see people complaining that they are taking orders on product for their next shipment???? Really. If Juiced was truly a one man show and new to the market then your concerns would be more valid, but they have been in the ebike business for almost a decade and from all appearances seem to be planning for a long future.

Not about happy, as long as buyers understand they may wait months for a product being built with their funds. Great low interest funding method. With, I suspect, not much protection. But have at it. I’m always happy when another Ebike hits the road with a happy rider.

 

[tomjasz]

It's called occam's razor.

Talk to any salesman and ask him if you think a deposit helps lock in the sale. It's letting laziness/inertia work in your favor.

Let's say they have $1m in orders, with 1.5 months between the order and delivery. 4.5% interest. They save... $5.6k, 0.6%. whoop de Doo. You go get rich on 0.6% cash carry and let us know. Sure, it may help with cash flow and payroll, but it's not a Ponzi scheme, and it's not going to make anyone rich. At most it's cheaper access to capital.

You didn't refute anything I said, you just called me a name. And I've never heard of anyone complaining about crowdfunding because a company held their money for 6 weeks before delivery - the complaints are about waiting several months or years (Copenhagen wheel anyone?), or delivering a product that didn't live up to advertised claims. Or the people just outright bolt with the cash. Griping about preorders because they're preorders... Well that's a new one.

I’m confuse as to how a problem solving theorem applies, unless some one has taken Occam and applied financial principles.
“More like a shill”. I sincerely apologize if you felt I called you a name. I meant to address my perceived tone. I’ve managed many large funded projects. Tiring stuff. But we’ll have to disagree. I don’t like the business model. Nothing to refute. I never buy with those terms. I’ve seen a lot of failures.

 

[JoePah]

This helps explain Juiced Bikes' low cost structure... So they keep little inventory which is dead money, esp for models that don't move. They do have retail sales in bike stores, just don't think it's a large part of their total business.

It seems to be working but they will be limited, cause most people, including me, want to buy a bike that's already built.