Frey CC not working with Inotrace Archon X1 controller upgrade

[Acme]

I have 2 Frey CC manufactured in September 2020. They have been good bikes but the range was a lot less than we had hoped for. After looking around I decided to try the WattWagons Archon X1 Inotrace controller. I read Tom D a member here who also has a Frey CC had excellent success with his and several other people that had also had a great experience. The motor arrived and I had it professionally installed. And performed well. The only odd thing is the battery percentage seems to jump idown in large increments. Other than that the motor had more power and range was better by at least 25% if not 40% on some rides. Over several hundred kilometers the PAS began to intermittently stop working. It’s slowly became almost on rideable without using the throttle. It was strange you could hit the throttle and power would flow so I don’t think it was the battery. Thinking it must be something wrong with the new motor white wagons sent me a second motor this motor instantly began working as the first one I eat not taking some time to fail. Hi remove that motor and put the original Frey motor with the Bafang controller on. the PAS is working again but battery range is dismal. I did a 12 mile ride with 2000 feet of elevation and struggled to get home with 8% battery. I recently did the exact same ride even towing my niece on a conventional bike up 1500 feet of elevation and came out with 46% with the X1 controller.
I reached out to Frey I have not heard anything back yet. Watt Wagons is contacting Inotrace to see if they have any ideas.
We did switch the battery with my other CC that is untouched and it had no change in the performance.
This is a super cool bike with the upgraded controller. Otherwise it’s just really power-hungry with terrible range. My wife was riding a 250 W a motor with a 401 hour battery on the same ride and still have more than 50%. The other CC came out with 38%. On the ride. Another friend has a Shimano a Eighth thousand with a 600 wh battery and has near 140% the range I have currently.
is anyone out there have any ideas as to what the culprit may be.

 

[Acme]

I’m posting my email exchange with Fray in hopes that someone here might be able to decipher the English / Chinese translation. Long story short it seems they are saying because I put a different motor in the bike I altered it and even though I have the original motor, now it is no longer under warranty. Or they don’t want to be bothered with accessing why the other controller will not work with their electronics. It’s no secret that the original Bafang controller as one of the worst made and consumes a tremendous amount of power compared to any other biike. This makes their bikes heavier because they need larger batteries and shorter range than almost anything else on the market. If they can fix this problem they will have a good bike but if they just don’t care that I feel they will be part of history.

Hi Cecilia

My CC has been performing well but I wanted more range so I bought another G510 with an Inotrace controller. The bike performed well at first with at least a 25% increase in efficiency. Over time however the PAS began to quit working intermittently. It became worse over 200km until the bike was unrideable without using the throttle. I received another motor with the Inotrace controller and it immediately started performing as poorly as the previous motor, meaning it did not take time to slowly get worse like the first one.

I have installed the original motor that came from Frey and the PAS is working fine. It does however seem the range is not even as good as it was before however. I went for a ride today 16km and 700m elevation with my friend on the other CC I purchased and mine finished with 8% and his was 35%.

When we originally got the bikes we always had similar battery range.

Could you please ask you tech people if they have any idea what the problem might be?.

Is it possible that my CC has the diode for a dual battery installation.

I see you are now making a 60v beast model. Is there any change in my display or something else on my CC that would be capable of 60v

I know there have been several Frey CC as well as other Frey bikes that have installed the Inotrace controller without problems. Have any parts changed on your bikes recently?

Thank you in advance

Gary Fuller



Hi Gary,

Where did you buy the controller? Is it Bafang?

Best regards

Cecilia



Hi Cecilia



I’m sorry I wasn’t clear, it is a controller made by the German company “Inotrace”. Many people have upgraded your standard Bafang controllers with this controller. The performance is far superior to the original Bafang controller.

Unfortunately I believe there is some thing on my CC that is not allowing this controller to work properly. Is there any chance you could speak with your technical people.

Thank you



Cecilia,

I purchased it from Watt Wagons in Boston USA



Hi Gary,



You need to recalibrate the Hall position and the position of the torque by besst box.

After installing the controller, use bestt to connect to the controller, click to see the controller interface, there is calibration hall, calibration torque, click to start calibration.



Besst box cost 80USD

shipping cost is 30USD



BR



Hi Cecilia,

I don’t think you’re understanding my question. The Inotrace controller has worked perfectly on several other Frey bikes that have not needed the Besst box. It has been installed on hundreds of Bafang G510 motors without a problem

One of two things I believe is happening

1). is there anything on your bikes that has changed recently for instance are you using the dual battery converter diodes on the CC

2). Can you think of anything that would cause the battery percentage to drop in large increments or battery range to become less

Thank you

Gary



Hi Gary，

Our bike has not changed, and the battery percentage is not accurate. It is recommended that you adjust to the voltage mode.

Under normal circumstances, there is no problem when you use it.

If you replace the motor controller privately, there is no after-sales support for any problems.

BR

Cecilia



Hi Cecelia,



I replaced the entire motor with a new motor and controller. I think your tech people are aware of the shortcomings for their buffing controller. I hope Frey understands they will be able to sell more bikes if these bikes can be upgraded. The bikes are top quality except for the standard Bafang controller.

I know Frey will not be happy if I post this exchange on EBR. It will seriously affect your sales if you will not help people with your bikes.

Please tell someone above you that there is a problem with your bikes and it needs to be solved.

Thank you for your time



Gary,

Too fast power consumption is related to the rider's weight, power-assisted gear, gear position, and road conditions. Under different weight situations, people with heavier weight consume more power, and the larger the booster gear, the more power is consumed, and the use of small teeth consumes more power. Compared with mountain roads and flat roads, it consumes more power when climbing is required

 

[onlineaddy]

I'm not surprised that the manufacturer is unwilling to support 3rd-party modifications made by the customer. Threatening them with "exposure" on the forums to get your way is kind of uncool.

 

[brake034]

In my opinion it's the Innotrace controlled motor that is causing issues? So why not ask the supplier of that motor to solve the issue?

If you take the stock engine out of a Harley and replace it with an S&S, is Harley responsible for any engine issues? No, they will claim you have voided your warranty and Frey is doing exactly the same and they are right in doing so.

 

[brake034]

Two other things;
-Only the EX has a double battery option, the CC never had it, so no diodes.
-60V requires a special controller, even the Innotrace one cannot handle 60V. Bafang supplies these to Frey on special order.

 

[scrambler]

Clearly, you should be speaking to Watt Wagons, to see if they can help you troubleshoot the Archon X1 controller

 

[Acme]

I spoke many times with Watt Wagons and their customer service is excellent they always return my calls and my questions are answered as well as possibl by a person who actually works on the bikes. Pushkar the owner is communicating with the manufacturer in Germany as well as other people who have installed these on different bikes. He has multiple orders lined up to go into Frey bikes when they are delivered and is concerned about the issue. The motors are on there way to Watt Wagons for testing to make sure there is nothing wrong with them. It is more likely there is a problem interfacing with something on the Frey . At this point I have returned the original motor to the cc and the performance is much less than it was previously Which is about 50% less than the Inotrace using just the throttle.
The email exchange was to meant to show the frustration possibly through a language barrier. I attempt to communicate with Frey I get answers to questions I’m not asking. . If you look on the forums you will find other people that have used them on frey bikes as well as other Bafang ultra without any issues. You will see people get at least a 20% in efficiency as well as a more realistic feel. They make the Frey a much better bike.
‘I see where they don’t want to support a part they didn’t sell. But if many people are trying to put these on there bikes and they don’t work people will just buy a bike that already comes with the better controller. That is what I have done and now I may just sell the Frey even though all other things about it are good. I have purchased 2 ultra bikes with the Inotrace controller already in them even though they are more expensive. After the last exchange with Frey I am sure I made the correct decision.
‘Gary

 

[onlineaddy]

I’m glad that Pushkar is helping you out. He’s good like that. Frey is under no obligation to do so.

 

[Acme]

Update. I rode a little over 6 miles and 1400 feet of elevation today. Came back with 86% Absolutely no problems and good battery life. Not sure what is going on. My other cc had the exact same battery use on the road with a slightly lighter rider

 

[greeno]

So your last bike ride was with the original Bafang motor and controller? And you came back with 86% remaining? Six miles and 1400'of climbing seems about right.

You probably already know this, A bit of advice: Change the power remaining display setting to Voltage instead of percent, it will be much more accurate. 52 or 48v battery?

Not sure about newer model displays but the percentage # used to be calibrated to a 48v system on the older ones and it looked like you had more battery life than what you actually did if running a 52v battery.
Did a little ride today with a couple of buddy's and we rode about 32 miles, all single track, probably 500' elevation gain, started off with a little less than full charge 57.6v and finished with 53.4v. Power level 2 and sometimes 3. WW motor and upgraded innotrace controller. A lot more energy efficient than my old BBSHD.
One friend was running a stock Bafang Ultra on his new AK Vapour and he started at 58.7v and finished at 52.7v. Apples to apples. We plugged his into my computer to check programming when he first got it but didn't change anything, just documented all the original settings and we'll tweak it as needed.

 

[Acme]

I will go into the settings and see if I can change to percentage. I have a grim charger that gives me the voltage when I plug it in as well. The motor with the Inotrace controller I sent back to Watt Wagons is being tested on another bike and has yet to fail. There is some internal conflict with the Frey CC, I just need to find what it is and change it.

 

[greeno]

The settings will be on your display. I think it's the power tab. Change it from percentage to voltage if your using the DPC-18 which is very popular. I like the 750c display myself but they all work.
As far as the compatibility with your innotrace controller motor and the bike there are only a few things that it needs to function. Cadence sensor being one of them. What kind does the Frey bike come with maybe it sends a different signal to the Biktrix controller motor to function. Maybe it's the standard bafang one I don't know.
One more thing I would do is check your display and see what the voltage system it's set to if thats possible. I re-read your first post and when you said your voltage dropped quite a bit were you just going by your display? Next time this does this unplug your motor from the battery and check the actual voltage with a multimeter directly at the pos/neg pins. DONT TOUCH THEM TOGETHER!! Maybe just maybe your display could be faulty and you have more battery life than what it shows.

Last piece of advice is whichever motor your having trouble with if you can swap it over to your other bike and see if the issue follows the motor or stays with the bike. That will rule out one or the other. Thats the bonus of having spare bikes to swap out parts on. Good luck.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Curious... Did you ever find out the problem?
In my mind it would have to be the display as no other part interacts as deeply with the controller.
Since you Voided your warranty, have you tried tweaking the stock Bafang controller?

 

[Acme]

The stock controller works fine. I spoke with another guy who was running 3000w through an Inotrace and he had the same problem he changed out some of the battery connections and it works fine now. I tried to Connect directly to the battery but I wasn’t carful and blew the BMS. I should have the repairEd batter back Monday and try again. Maybe just replace the Anderson connector this time

 

[Gionnirocket]

The stock controller works fine. I spoke with another guy who was running 3000w through an Inotrace and he had the same problem he changed out some of the battery connections and it works fine now. I tried to Connect directly to the battery but I wasn’t carful and blew the BMS. I should have the repairEd batter back Monday and try again. Maybe just replace the Anderson connector this time

Battery connections? And it was working well with the throttle?
I'd think that the throttle would put more load on the connections then the PAS as you're not pedaling.

 

[greeno]

I read your statement above where you said the guy with the 3k motor running through an Innotrace controller had the same problem until he changed a couple of battery connections and now it works. Not sure what kind of connections he could change. Batteries are batteries. Connections ( if their correct ) should never have to be changed unless damaged of course. The BMS is another matter ( Minimum 60a rated ) if he's even using one, sometimes they go bad but not very often. Loose or broken connections on the sensing wires can be problematic if not assembled correctly. My buddy got a bike from Mr. P. and he got the 2.3k motor option as well as the X1 upgrade and his works just fine.
Just a suggestion on testing your battery voltage. Lick your two fingers..... sorry just kidding. Just make a quick adadpter with two wires coming out that you can safely hook up a meter to and then just plug it in. I typically use XT90 connectors for the Motor and Battery leads and a XT60 for the charge lead. There pretty bomb proof. Not a fan of Anderson connectors as they tend to move around and work themselves loose and not to H2o proof. Just my experience.

 

[Acme]

I am replacing the Anderson connector with XT60 at the motor before I stick it back together. I wanted to go straight into the battery so only one connection but FTH power that just replaced the BMS said not possible to solder at battery?

 

[greeno]

Don't understand what your talking about.
Got the part about replacing the Anderson connectors with the XT60 at the motor..... But you gotta match that same connector coming from the battery right? How did you replace the BMS? Did you use the same kind? Kinda lost on what your sayin.

 

[Acme]

I sent the battery in to FTH power to determine what the problem was. They said it was the BMS and they would replace it. There was no choice of which BMS to use. I asked them for a 60 amp discharge.
of course I am replacing the Male Anderson from the battery and the Female Anderson from the motor so the XT 60 connector has male and female.

 

[greeno]

Don't understand what your talking about.
Got the part about replacing the Anderson connectors with the XT60 at the motor..... But you gotta match that same connector coming from the battery right? How did you replace the BMS? Did you use the same kind? Kinda lost on what your sayin.