External vs Integrated battery packs - which do you prefer and why?

[Mass Deduction]

aerodynamics for one thing.

Is there a significant aerodynamic advantage to an internal battery vs. a semi-integrated battery with rounded edges tucked inside the main triangle, though? I'm not sure that there is. If there is, I suspect that it'll be very minor.

Any other performance advantages you can point to?

 

[Cal000]

I prefer the looks of intergrated batteries
But I bought a external battery bc I felt they were more practical for the reasons already outlined a few times in this post

 

[vincent]

i prefer integrated batteries, like the cleaner look and less people noticing the bike

but i get it about the others may be cheaper to get and easier to get later

although i hope we are getting to where the cells just need to be replaced and can be done easily

 

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

By now, it looks like everyone has touched on the pros and cons of each design. They both look good to me and as an owner of an external battery, well, I'm a fan of external batteries!

I certainly don't put any consideration whatsoever about whomever else "thinks about ebikes" when it comes to the internal battery design and the desire to keep the ebike looking like a conventional bike. My bike is for myself. I could not care one bit about the fragile psyche of those analog riders who make it a point to get worked up when encountering an ebike.

Yesterday's ride was in sub freezing temps and at the end of the ride, it was easy enough to unlock the battery so I could bring it inside and let it warm to room temperature before putting it on charge. Not sure if those internal batteries have that same kind of utility and ease of removal and installation as the external battery.

For us external battery folks, there are some folks out there in the business of expanding our battery capacity; in the case of the Yamaha, there is one being offered that has a 745wh capacity. That's quite a jump from the maximum 500wh design offered by OEM Yamaha. As of now with today's battery technology, the internal battery folks are stuck with the case size of their existing battery; no hope of expanding power capability.....

The external battery can be more easily carried in pannier bags, doubling, tripling or quadrupling the range capacity of the single battery. In the photo below, that pannier bag is made to accomodate the Yamaha, Bosch or Shimano battery. Carrying spare downtube batteries is problematic, one that I have not seen the industry attempt to address as they have with the external design; short of Haibikes Modular Rail design or what Riese and Muller is doing on their high end bikes.

In the end, I respect both designs but am happy with the bulky looking external battery!

 

[opimax]

I have already stated my opinion for integrated batteries. I have thought it about it a little more and my wife has pointed it out to me. when I ride I don’t want to deal with anything which will stop me. When I ride i just go, no interaction with anyone but a smile and a wave. And the the last thing I want is to speak with anyone especially of authority that me or my bike don’t belong where I am riding. Anything which makes my bike less ebike in appearance could be just 1 less opportunity for an interaction is worth the additional cost and issues associated with goin the internal route to me

I do like the look better but stealth is my primary concern

i do speak w people when the ask questions when riding ,just don’t want to. I love speaking ebike.... when I am not riding

 

[bikeman242]

I have already stated my opinion for integrated batteries. I have thought it about it a little more and my wife has pointed it out to me. when I ride I don’t want to deal with anything which will stop me. When I ride i just go, no interaction with anyone but a smile and a wave. And the the last thing I want is to speak with anyone especially of authority that me or my bike don’t belong where I am riding. Anything which makes my bike less ebike in appearance could be just 1 less opportunity for an interaction is worth the additional cost and issues associated with goin the internal route to me

I do like the look better but stealth is my primary concern

i do speak w people when the ask questions when riding ,just don’t want to. I love speaking ebike.... when I am not riding

I had a similar thought when shopping for my eBike (see my other thread - "are eBike bans actually enforced").

Fahrer makes covers that would completely conceal an external battery - look at the universal summer or the tube design.

FAHRER Berlin | battery cover | FAHRER Berlin - the bicycle accessories manufacturer

We offer e-Bike battery protection suitable for BOSCH PowerPack 300, 400 & 500 Classic+ , BOSCH Power Pack Active-/Performance Line, Yamaha PW Series and integrated down tube batteries.

www.fahrer-berlin.de

Also, you can make a simple homemade frame bag that does not have a bottom, and is designed so the battery is effectively encapsulated inside the frame bag.

DIY: How to Make A Simple Frame Bag

The frame bag is the most basic piece of bike luggage; here’s how to plan, design, and construct a simple frame bag for bikepackng and bike touring...

bikepacking.com

Combine a Fahrer cover with a frame bag and your battery is effectively concealed.

In the event you cause an accident or hit a pedestrian on an eBike, the fact that you have an integrated battery is not going to cause the police officer to overlook that you have an Ebike in a place where you shouldn't.

However, I do have one question:

I also have a bike with an external Yamaha battery, and was wondering if I have a fall off the bike, if I need to get the battery inspected that it is safe to continue riding? I have read that any damage to the battery creates unsafe use and charging. I would assume that an integrated battery is better protected in the event of a spill off the bike.

 

[opimax]

Hi, thx for the response . This still looks like a a battery to me just with a cover , not a large enough difference to make it acceptable to me. Again thx for posting this.

i understand if I am involved in anything that get attn to the details of my bike it will be found it out for the true config of the bike, hope it never comes up is the best I can say. Andmtell my insurance company ahead of time what I own under my umbrella policy coverage.

 

[vincent]

I have had a few bikes with integrated batteries and do not understand this talk about not being able to charge them off the bike??? My integrated batteries come off the bike very easily, just as easily as my non integrated

The only ones I have see that are a pain to remove are inside the frames on some folders and you have to fold the bike to get them out

I am under the impression there are very few bikes that the battery cannot be removed to charge


And agree with Opimax the less I draw attention to myself that results in people wanting to stop and talk to me the better
I am out there to ride my bike, I don’t care what anybody else thinks about the bike but do like limiting interactions of any type where people
Are commenting on it for whatever reason

 

[opimax]

I do care what others think...if the have a gun, write tickets or delay in my plan of new personal high of breaking 110 miles . Seems to be my goal any long ride

 

[Nomad]

Is there a significant aerodynamic advantage to an internal battery vs. a semi-integrated battery with rounded edges tucked inside the main triangle, though? I'm not sure that there is. If there is, I suspect that it'll be very minor.

Any other performance advantages you can point to?

Another is that it can protect the battery better and distribute the weight

 

[Mass Deduction]

Another is that it can protect the battery better and distribute the weight

I agree that fully integrated battery packs offer better weight distribution and protection than a fully external battery. I'm not sure they're substantially better than a semi-integrated battery, though. Being inside the main triangle protects the battery sufficiently well in my experience; if the bike tips over, the handlebar and/or pedals are likely to be what strikes the ground. Being semi-integrated gets the weight distributed similarly well. Check out this semi-integrated battery pack set-up; a fully integrated battery may go higher up the downtube and may actually offer poorer weight distribution than this semi-integrated battery pack.

I'm certainly not saying there are no benefits to fully integrated, there certainly are. But they seem to be minor benefits performance-wise. The primary advantages cited are stealth and aesthetics, which I agree with. The question is whether stealth and aesthetics are worth paying more for, living with less convenient batter swaps, etc. And as this thread proves, for some people the answer is yes, for others the answer is no.

 

[Oberst]

I have 3 e bikes. Two with integrated and one external (Trek Cross Rip +). If I am worried about range, I take the Cross Rip with an extra battery as they are easy to fit in a pannier and quick to change as well as less expensive thn an integrated battery.

Have never been stopped on any bike but have had good conversations about e bikes. If someone wants to argue with me about e bikes I would just let them say their piece and move on.

 

[Alex M]

Being semi-integrated gets the weight distributed similarly well. Check out this semi-integrated battery pack set-up; a fully integrated battery may go higher up the downtube and may actually offer poorer weight distribution than this semi-integrated battery pack.

I'm certainly not saying there are no benefits to fully integrated, there certainly are. But they seem to be minor benefits performance-wise. .

I fail to see any improvements in performance with fully integrated vs semi-integrated when either one is placed on downtube.

There "might" be minor performance improvement of integrated vs non-integrated when placed on downtube, - the former sitting slightly closer to the bottom/forward wall of the downtube. Or it might not be, - you don't want shift the weight forward too much.

There won't be significant performance improvement (if any) when battery is placed along the seat-tube, - integrated inside of external.

Apples to apples, i.e. for similar quality battery packs, I suspect that permanent exposure of integrated to heat and cold will affect its life more than exposure of external battery to wetness. You want the battery to be indoors when not riding, be it for charging or just storing for a day.

 

[FlatSix911]

I had a similar thought when shopping for my eBike (see my other thread - "are eBike bans actually enforced").

Fahrer makes covers that would completely conceal an external battery - look at the universal summer or the tube design.

FAHRER Berlin | battery cover | FAHRER Berlin - the bicycle accessories manufacturer

We offer e-Bike battery protection suitable for BOSCH PowerPack 300, 400 & 500 Classic+ , BOSCH Power Pack Active-/Performance Line, Yamaha PW Series and integrated down tube batteries.

www.fahrer-berlin.de

Also, you can make a simple homemade frame bag that does not have a bottom, and is designed so the battery is effectively encapsulated inside the frame bag.

DIY: How to Make A Simple Frame Bag

The frame bag is the most basic piece of bike luggage; here’s how to plan, design, and construct a simple frame bag for bikepackng and bike touring...

bikepacking.com

Combine a Fahrer cover with a frame bag and your battery is effectively concealed.
In the event you cause an accident or hit a pedestrian on an eBike, the fact that you have an integrated battery is not going to cause the police officer to overlook that you have an Ebike in a place where you shouldn't. However, I do have one question:

I also have a bike with an external Yamaha battery, and was wondering if I have a fall off the bike, if I need to get the battery inspected that it is safe to continue riding? I have read that any damage to the battery creates unsafe use and charging. I would assume that an integrated battery is better protected in the event of a spill off the bike.

The cover is designed to keep the battery at a proper operating temperature... not to conceal the battery.

What do I need a battery cover for?

The regular working temperature of a battery is above 20 degrees Celsius. If the outside temperature is below the insulation of the battery helps to keep it warm.
The self-heating of the battery while discharging will remain inside and lift the internal working temperature. This may increase your range.

Please note: If you park your bike in cold environment self-heating will not recognizably lift the internal temperature.
To create the best effect make sure that the battery is always stored and charged in room temperature.
Shortly before starting your ride put it onto your bike with cover on. So self-heating of the battery can be held inside and provide a superior internal temperature.

 

[PatriciaK]

Since I bought a step-through model specifically for the ease of getting on and off, I'm happy with my external rear rack battery placement. I didn't want an integrated or down tube mounted battery impinging in the step-through space. So, mine works for my needs.

 

[Nomad]

So couple things to keep in mind one is that if it's a in frame battery that doesn't mean you can't take out to charge it. Also if you ride in freezing cold weather on a regular basis your going to want to bring your bike in as well.

 

[Mass Deduction]

[...]
Apples to apples, i.e. for similar quality battery packs, I suspect that permanent exposure of integrated to heat and cold will affect its life more than exposure of external battery to wetness. You want the battery to be indoors when not riding, be it for charging or just storing for a day.

Actually, this is a very interesting point. For those people who have to leave their e-bike in a shed (or other non-climate controlled environment), an external or semi-external battery pack is usually trivial to disconnect and bring inside. However, a fully integrated pack is often more of a hassle to disconnect and bring inside, if you're unable to do so with the entire bike.

Another thing that occurred to me yesterday while I was running an errand and locking up my e-bike, the top third of my downtube is quite a bit skinnier and easier to get a lock around than the super fat downtubes I commonly see on bikes with integrated batteries. The stronger the lock the smaller the lock tends to be, so this is potentially a very significant advantage for some people. See below for reference.

 

[Explorer-1]

I think this is a pretty clean way to do an external battery. The vendor lock-in associated with integrated batteries is a big concern.

 

[Alex M]

View attachment 44438

An example of a good semi-integrated design. Though costs more than angular profile of downtube on many other bikes.

Yes, it's easier to lock when downtube is not oversized to ridiculously large diameter to hide the battery inside.

On $9,000 Specialized in recent Court's review with nicely integrated battery I read that battery can be removed "with a help of a bike shop" if needed ... I guess people throwing that much dough are not concerned about battery life (and probably have heated garage in their mansion).

 

[Stefan Mikes]

On $9,000 Specialized in recent Court's review with nicely integrated battery I read that battery can be removed "with a help of a bike shop" if needed ... I guess people throwing that much dough are not concerned about battery life (and probably have heated garage in their mansion).

A person ready to spend $$$ on Creo can certainly afford a heated garage.