E-bikes under fire as fatalities climb in NYC

[Asher]

Oh man, another thread has devolved into politics and vain philosophy.

'Political' just means people disagreeing on how (public) property and power should be used. The provision of bike infrastructure and bike safety generally is therefore incredibly, unavoidably political, and someone who seems themselves above 'politics' hasn't a clue of what politics means in theory or in practice.

Just seeing now Pedaluma's remark, and agree 100%.

 

[Catalyzt]

TJ, I appreciate the apology as well, no matter who it was directed towards.

Asher, I shouldn't have speculated about whether or not you've had this kind of conflict in online forums before.

I was making assumptions about you that aren't very different from the ones you made about me.

I edited my comment.

I think Reed meant 'politics' as in the depressing, joyless media and social media ritual that 'politics' has become, and not what politics is supposed to mean-- and it's a sad state of affairs that Pedal had to remind us, though I'm glad he did. Of course it's political.

 

[drewberz]

One city to keep track of that is building out good supporting infrastructure is Lisbon:

How cargo bikes are winning hearts and minds in Lisbon

In this second #CargoBike series article, ECF interviews two municipal mobility experts to get a grasp of the emerging cargo bike culture in Lisbon, the Velo-city 2021 host city.

www.ecf.com

 

[PedalUma]

What if the scooter killer of dancer Lisa Banes in NYC had an Apple air (error) tag? I would bet that investigators would sit on it, it is too good, finding another path strong enough to issue a further investigation and enforce the warrant of arrest. Do you think they would announce it? The have cracked the phones of killers and recently busted a bunch of drug dealers who were smart enough to assume their communications and locations were not being monitored.

 

[Catalyzt]

I wonder about some kind of simple permitting system as well. Everyone hangs a QR code from the top tube, so anyone can snap a photo of them and ID them. Just throwing around some ideas, maybe that's a terrible one.

In NYC, I'd like to see a solution to the double-parked car problem. I remember my first few runs in the bike lanes with Citybikes, and seeing some huge van taking double parked, and thinking, "Okay, this bike lane isn't working so well today." But people need to be able to drop of passengers and unload cargo, too. Shorter time limit, maybe?

For a while in the late '90s, there were speed limit signs-- for bikes-- placed in the middle of the park drive on a mic-stand kind of post with a weighted base. Man, that was annoying-- and dangerous as hell, you often couldn't see them when it was congested until you were right on top of them.

I also wish enforcement hadn't become so politicized and it was actually possible to pull someone over for flagrantly blowing stop signs without even looking without causing an international incident-- or without it becoming a pretext for shaking down or harassing minority drivers & riders.

I guess I wish the world were reasonable: Rolling stop of any kind for a car is a ticket, slow-rolling stop for a bike you get a pass, an e-bike only gets a pass for a very, very slow-rolling stop. Enforce jaywalking laws, but only for the most egregious violations... in my neighborhood, hipsters creep across the street dressed in black talking on their phones without looking either way on unlit streets on dark, moonlit nights. It's terrifying as a driver.

But no, that's not what happens. In Burbank, my Japanese co-worker got ticketed for being in a crosswalk for a flashing "Don't Walk." Never happened to any of my anglo coworkers.

Would it be so terrible if cops could stop bikes that exceed 30 MPH on flat ground w/ no pedaling and do a spot inspection? Probably wildly impractical. But if you could be confident the enforcement would be fair, that doesn't seem like such a terrible solution. I might be okay with letting a cop or ranger ride my bike and clock it with a GPS.

 

[ActionJackson]

Personally as an expat American, I think New York City has a lot more criminal ilk to deal with rather than e-bikes. But then again I’m a proponent of no permit open carry firearms too. Sure enough though NYC will find it their duty to strangle their own citizen’s rights.

 

[ActionJackson]

In Burbank, my Japanese co-worker got ticketed for being in a crosswalk for a flashing "Don't Walk." Never happened to any of my anglo coworkers.

In Tokyo, foreigners (like me) on bicycles get pulled over incessantly for bicycle registration checks, alien resident card checks, and a quick search for drugs. They even ask to see your bike insurance papers. I keep all that rolled up in the handlebars. Never happens to my Japanese counterparts either. It wrinkles me sometimes but if it were a real issue I should just return to America I reckon.

 

[mschwett]

On average there were 292 deaths each year due to motor vehicle traffic-related injuries among vehicle occupants, killing 1.6 of every 100,000 New Yorkers.

Houston was first overall, with 640 deaths per year and 2,850 serious injuries

1.6 per 100,000 in New York City, +/- 10 per 100,000 in Houston. The idea that denser cities are less safe to get around is totally untrue. Even adding in pedestrian and cyclist fatalities, New York doesn’t even get to 1/4 of Houston’s rate.

The biggest reason for this is that speeds are lower and distances shorter. E-Scooters and E-bikes that allow higher speeds and longer distances will inevitably result in more deaths.

 

[Catalyzt]

In Tokyo, foreigners (like me) on bicycles get pulled over incessantly for bicycle registration checks, alien resident card checks, and a quick search for drugs. They even ask to see your bike insurance papers. I keep all that rolled up in the handlebars. Never happens to my Japanese counterparts either. It wrinkles me sometimes but if it were a real issue I should just return to America I reckon.

I believe you. London's like that too, I hear-- call to report a burglary, they search your house, not a thing you can do about it.

I don't want to drift too far OT, there's another self defense thread here, but FWIW, I don't understand why owning a gun should be easier than owning a car, and I'd never go to the range or plinking with anyone who doesn't have a DROS at a minimum. Really don't think open carry is a great idea-- hell, people can't even keep track of their damn phones.

I guess that's what I'm saying after some heated political disagreement on this thread. Why can't we have sensible regulations that we all can live with?

 

[ActionJackson]

Why can't we have sensible regulations that we all can live with?

Because one man’s sensibility is tyranny to another? Order, structure, sensible communal thinking, all those things exist here in Japan from an outward appearance but it’s not far behind the dystopia of China actually. In my heart I prefer the adventure and true grit of Texas and Mississippi, my native stomping grounds!

 

[Art Deco]

1.6 per 100,000 in New York City, +/- 10 per 100,000 in Houston. The idea that denser cities are less safe to get around is totally untrue. Even adding in pedestrian and cyclist fatalities, New York doesn’t even get to 1/4 of Houston’s rate.

The biggest reason for this is that speeds are lower and distances shorter. E-Scooters and E-bikes that allow higher speeds and longer distances will inevitably result in more deaths.

Higher speeds (and older riders) mean more mortality. Distance only matters because of the higher speeds required.

 

[mschwett]

Higher speeds (and older riders) mean more mortality. Distance only matters because of the higher speeds required. View attachment 90652

yes. distance is the root cause. when uses are spread too far apart, and at very low densities, trips become very long. nobody is going to commute 30 miles at 10mph. cities with high densities and mixed uses are inherently safer to get around because they don’t require high speeds. add in good infrastructure which is bike and pedestrian and transit first, and injuries and fatalities drop even further, along with energy consumption and carbon emissions.

bikes and e-bikes can play a big role in boosting practical regular trip distances, from just a few to perhaps a dozen miles, or slightly more with good infrastructure and appropriate rules.

 

[Art Deco]

About a half hour twice a day is about right for most commuters. So 10 miles @ 20mph or 5 miles @ 10mph . Bump the speed to 30mph average and you'll still only get 15 miles, a short commute in the US. It doesn't sound like it's really worth it to push for higher speed bikes on trails, sidewalks, and bike lanes. Not worth the risk or regulations.

 

[kmccune]

yes. distance is the root cause. when uses are spread too far apart, and at very low densities, trips become very long. nobody is going to commute 30 miles at 10mph. cities with high densities and mixed uses are inherently safer to get around because they don’t require high speeds. add in good infrastructure which is bike and pedestrian and transit first, and injuries and fatalities drop even further, along with energy consumption and carbon emissions.

bikes and e-bikes can play a big role in boosting practical regular trip distances, from just a few to perhaps a dozen miles, or slightly more with hood infrastructure and appropriate rules.

Yes, once upon a time, I used to do a small mental exercise on what was a practical distance vs time using various modes of transport( foot travel, bike, automobile, etc)
In the low security( they claim) Prisons in VA, they have a CO riding around the perimeter 24 hrs a day I would say some of them.
these people could use a little exercise that an Ebike could provide, The whole concept of these patrols is ludicrous, to begin with, think about. Watchtowers, triple razor wire-topped fences( must have made the manufacturers of "Razorwire" a lot of money ) motion detectors, cameras, guards on patrol, etc A pretty, young woman running down the lineup of "Prisoners" with a large German Shepard drug-sniffing dog during a "drug check", She is running so fast the Poor Dog wouldn't be able to pick up any drugs. After all that show is over, the odor of"Skunkiness"* fills the pod during recess or whatever you call it when the outside doors are unlocked
During an earthquake they made us go back in those shoddily constructed things they call"Pods or Dorms" there is some real stupidity that goes on in the so-called"Correctional system. And it begins at the local judicial level( Don't make a Judge or CA made at you- they will not listen to the Community that was standing up for you) Bye and bye there is a lot of money to be made in the so-called "correctional system" The local law enforcement makes sure these things are filled to capacity(sometimes a little more)
* The smell of current types of Marijuana.

 

[Catalyzt]

Higher speeds (and older riders) mean more mortality. Distance only matters because of the higher speeds required. View attachment 90652

Okay, point taken, but looking only at the traffic stats feels a bit reductive to me. There are other risks for mortality, and threats to quality of life that come with population density that are harder to measure, some related to transit directly, others related only tangentially.

It's sort of similar to what I call "The SSRI problem." SSRIs are considered to be very safe drugs, and if you're assessing safety solely by stats and literature, it's easy to buy into that narrative. The problem is that it's almost impossible to measure the suicidality and homicidality caused by SSRIs-- you just can't establish causality because we don't really understand the mechanism of action for this class of drugs (though we pretend that we do). But I think it's pretty clear to any clinician who has an open mind and who is paying attention that SSRIs are very dangerous, particularly to younger people, and particular when combined with alcohol and weed. Again and again, these are the patients who have a very specific flavor of suicidal and homicidal ideation that has a distinct signature-- you know it when you see it, but you can't pin a number to it.

Living and going to work in a high density environment can be really dangerous and dehumanizing in ways that offset the statistical safety-- and I say that as someone who loves both New York and Los Angeles. One of my worst depressive phases was in 1987, and I remember the lowest moment was when I was waiting for the subway one morning, wondering why I was the only one standing at the south end of the platform until I realized there was a homeless guy who'd just finished taking a crap five feet away from me, behind a post. Believe me, I had my own problems at the time that had nothing to do with the city, but for a moment there, I felt like jumping in front of the train.

What chart is going to measure that? And what about my buddy, who has a heart condition and a job that requires him to drive in L.A. traffic at or near rush hour on streets that are notorious for terrible, competitive drivers? He may not get killed in traffic, but he's seriously thinking of moving because the stress and air pollution could shorten his life. I'll miss him terribly if he goes, but it may really be the right play for him.

I think e-bikes address a huge quality-of-life issue that isn't always about practicality, getting to work and back or shopping for essentials. I'm at far lower risk for road rage, suicide, problems with law enforcement, and stress-related medical complaints than I was before I started exploring the hills on Survivor and Seeker.

I guess what I'm saying is, it would suck to die in a traffic accident, but e-bikes address the hard-to-measure risks that could not only shorten but also degrade quality of life. Yes, part of that does happen at over 35 MPH, and I like to go fast, but that doesn't require Class III and happens on only two hills once or twice a week with little traffic and no pedestrians.

I'm fine with a Class I bike, and Class I speeds on city streets, at least for now.

 

[Art Deco]

I lived north of Atlanta ( a few decades ago) when an average morning commute was over an hour on multilane highways with speeds from over 80mph to under 8mph when backed up (happened regularly). I worked from home.
Most commuters I knew ate a deep fried fast food breakfast in their car while listening to Rush Limbaugh or some such "news" host, and knowing why they were going to be late. Again.
Start your day like that for a few years and see what happens to both mental and physical health. You don't need drugs to mess you up, the commute alone will do you in.
That being said I don't even know (or want to know) what an SSRI is. I do know that way too many people couln't eat at the breakfast table anyway because it is covered with dozens of prescription drug bottles .
None which is exactly relevant to ebikes, but is relevant to rethinking transport in the city.

 

[kmccune]

I lived north of Atlanta ( a few decades ago) when an average morning commute was over an hour on multilane highways with speeds from over 80mph to under 8mph when backed up (happened regularly). I worked from home.
Most commuters I knew ate a deep fried fast food breakfast in their car while listening to Rush Limbaugh or some such "news" host, and knowing why they were going to be late. Again.
Start your day like that for a few years and see what happens to both mental and physical health. You don't need drugs to mess you up, the commute alone will do you in.
That being said I don't even know (or want to know) what an SSRI is. I do know that way too many people couln't eat at the breakfast table anyway because it is covered with dozens of prescription drug bottles .
None which is exactly relevant to ebikes, but is relevant to rethinking transport in the city.

Well said.

 

[kmccune]

I have suffered through several depressions( didn't know at the time what they were)Chemicals didn't cause them conditions did. These Days I choose to be happy and its not because I have an abundance of certain Chemicals( natural) in my brain, I have arrived at the place in my life where I understand "Man" is a 3 phase creature-mental, physical and spiritual.
If all crimes and such were caused by deficiencies or overabundance of certain "Brain chemicals" we would be guilty of nothing, cured by simply gobbling the prerequisite amount of certain shaped and colored pills.
I understand my time here is limited and striving to create some positive things around Me, its my sincerest hope when the "Book of Life" is opened my name is in there.

 

[ActionJackson]

I understand my time here is limited and striving to create some positive things around Me, its my sincerest hope when the "Book of Life" is opened my name is in there.

Hey I recognize the photo in your profile - USS Normandy alongside the pier in Norfolk. If I haven’t lost my memory haha.

 

[reed scott]

The premier idea of societal structure has waffled all over the place in Western Civilization for millennia. The Founders of the American Democratic Republic came up with some pretty good ideas but they knew the structure was tenuous at best. Franklin warned the woman who asked him, "What sort of government have you given us Mister Franklin". "A Republic" was the answer. "If you can keep it" was the caveat. Another great sage of the founding era ( John Adams I think ) Warned that our Constitution was very fragile indeed and would work only for a public of high moral, responsible character. That common greed, avarice and selfishness could rip it apart "as a whale goes through a net". ( paraphrased )

The situation discussed here with bike laws is part and parcel of all that besets America in our day. We can easily think of a dozen areas of public behavior that are out of kilter and literally life threatening. When a society loses, in large part, a sense of belonging, a sense of duty to the whole, literally of their national identity, we get the chaos we see all around us. There are not enough laws nor enough police to enforce them to render straight and true a people divided and at each others throats. I live in a deep rural part of Texas. There are more Hispanic citizens than anglo. We see very very little of the chaos we hear about in the big cities. We all get along pretty well. We discuss or differences with respect and work out our troubles. Few listen to the crazed voices preaching hate and division coming out of the media and much of academia. 'America' is losing its mind. I wish to remind all that the natural form of government of all human history is dictatorship. Every democracy of history devolved either into a dictatorship or was wiped out by their enemies.