Bafang Ultra "Smooth" tune by Mike at Frey

[JRA]

Got out for a ride, got rained on, my hands got really cold because I didn't have on warm enough gloves and quite frankly didn't have a great time. I copied the PZ tune to the number and right away I could tell it wasn't going to work for me. My route starts out of the driveway down hill and you run out of gear pretty fast. However before I did I could feel the motor surging on/off and the pedal feel was decidedly biased towards cadence sensing. I almost turned back because of it but decided to ride it out to see how the other aspects were.

After ripping up the road a mile which I usually do in 4/5 to get it out of the way, it is only the first 1/4 mile that is downhill, I turned onto the logging road entrance and that leads to a long uphill and once again in mode3 that I have been climbing this hill in the pedal feel was decidedly cadence sensing. I only did a small amount of trail ride, less than planned, because it just wasn't feeling right to me and so I stayed on the gravel. I am sorry Prophet but I will be going back to my most recent settings as so far they have felt the best to me in regards to natural pedal feel with no surging.

Throttle is set more powerful than I had mine but not as much as when stock but I'll go back to my old settings where I can mash the throttle all the way down from a standstill and have a nice take off speed/torque. I don't use the throttle for other than that and a walk assist so I don't have it set to operate at higher speed.

Still was getting a cutout at low speed /high torque (just when you need a bit of power) with the PZ tune and I think I know what to mess with there and will try that when putting back my other tune. It's not a big deal because a blip of the throttle keeps you going but shouldn't be there I know.

 

[Jon A]

For those wondering what people are talking about with my tune, see here: https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/luna-z1-first-impressions.46506/post-490118

I apologize for not posting it here for those who don't read the Luna section, I intended to cross post it but never got around to it. Anyway, it's there for anybody to use/see.

So then I found a one year old YouTube video of some guy in his garage showing his most recent tune here: I copied them line for line and went for a ride and found them to be really good "for me". No run on at all and modes 1/2 very good for trail work, mostly because of the lack of overrun.

Thanks for posting that, I'll check it out. Did this also get rid of overrun at high assist levels? That's the one thing I haven't been able to get rid of to my satisfaction. For me, it's really only objectionable climbing really steep technical hills in high assist levels (4-5 out of 5). The shift sensor takes care of any overrun issues when shifting obviously (one of the main reasons I put it on, with zero overrun I wouldn't need it).

I also had cut-out issues when trying to eliminate the overrun. There was a parameter I thought would take care of it, but if I reduced it beyond a certain level I had cutout issues.

If anybody figures out how to completely eliminate all the overrun (I know, some high end eMTB's brag about this as a "feature," but in every situation they claim it is my throttle works better), without causing other side effects, please do post it up.

Got out for a ride, got rained on, my hands got really cold because I didn't have on warm enough gloves and quite frankly didn't have a great time. I copied the PZ tune to the number and right away I could tell it wasn't going to work for me. My route starts out of the driveway down hill and you run out of gear pretty fast. However before I did I could feel the motor surging on/off and the pedal feel was decidedly biased towards cadence sensing.

This is a good example of how different people (or even the same people in different applications) may want different things from the bike. I don't doubt at all if I was using the bike as a road commuter on a daily basis, I'd want more of a cadence-sensing feel so I wouldn't show up to work all sweaty and tired. But for trail/offroad use my aim was to be able to ride all sorts of terrain with a bike that feels natural without thinking about it and without needing to constantly change assist levels.

The great thing about the UART Ultra is you can have different files saved and upload them quickly and easily if one's use or even mood changes--you're not locked in to a certain bike feel. I have a tune limited to 750W/20MPH/No Throttle for when I'm riding MTB trails limited to Class 1. I'm such a boyscout.

 

[Gionnirocket]

For those wondering what people are talking about with my tune, see here: https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/luna-z1-first-impressions.46506/post-490118

I apologize for not posting it here for those who don't read the Luna section, I intended to cross post it but never got around to it. Anyway, it's there for anybody to use/see.


Thanks for posting that, I'll check it out. Did this also get rid of overrun at high assist levels? That's the one thing I haven't been able to get rid of to my satisfaction. For me, it's really only objectionable climbing really steep technical hills in high assist levels (4-5 out of 5). The shift sensor takes care of any overrun issues when shifting obviously (one of the main reasons I put it on, with zero overrun I wouldn't need it).

I also had cut-out issues when trying to eliminate the overrun. There was a parameter I thought would take care of it, but if I reduced it beyond a certain level I had cutout issues.

If anybody figures out how to completely eliminate all the overrun (I know, some high end eMTB's brag about this as a "feature," but in every situation they claim it is my throttle works better), without causing other side effects, please do post it up.


This is a good example of how different people (or even the same people in different applications) may want different things from the bike. I don't doubt at all if I was using the bike as a road commuter on a daily basis, I'd want more of a cadence-sensing feel so I wouldn't show up to work all sweaty and tired. But for trail/offroad use my aim was to be able to ride all sorts of terrain with a bike that feels natural without thinking about it and without needing to constantly change assist levels.

The great thing about the UART Ultra is you can have different files saved and upload them quickly and easily if one's use or even mood changes--you're not locked in to a certain bike feel. I have a tune limited to 750W/20MPH/No Throttle for when I'm riding MTB trails limited to Class 1. I'm such a boyscout.

I concur.. I even have different files for riding the same trails in the winter and summer.
In the cold I'm stiffer and just want to chug along getting some exercise whilst in the summer I'm a lot more foggy and want to race around and enjoy something a little more aggressive.

 

[JRA]

@JonA that YouTube tune does a really good job of getting rid of the overrun as you describe and I don't use a shift sensor, cause you can't really fit one on the E22 frame cause the der. cable housing that comes out of the chainstay to the der. is too short a distance for one.....Thing is I also think I'd like to have a bit of run on at higher speeds just cause there is less tension on the drivetrain and it can make the shift for you and not cause a pause in forward motion when you let off on the pedal pressure. If you listen to that guys take on overrun it makes sense although some of his logic is a bit hard to follow on other points.

Totally agree that there is a tune for everyone and their needs available within the programming software. It is just finding the right base to start from and making adjustments from there. As time goes on and more folks mess around with the tuning and understand how it all relates to each other and post their findings I think that others will benefit by trying out the different tunes to find the one that is closest for them.

I doubt I'll ever get to wanting to tune the bike for all occasions but it is useful to know it can be done. If I can ride tech trail, steep terrain and rip logging roads with the same tune then that is all I need and it seems that I am close to that with the exception of the pesky cut out which I am pretty sure that I'll hit on eventually. In the meantime like I said I can just tickle the throttle to get over it as soon as I feel it is acting that way and it only does it once in awhile.

 

[DavidRvR]

My wife's new CC is very smooth so not sure if they updated it or you guys are just picky... Maybe I should load it up and see how it compares to what you posted.. Also waiting for my BEAST to arrive.. soon as it get off the boat.. Hope to have it in the next week or so... 2 other CC are on another ship that is supposed to Dock today.. We will see how far behind they are..

 

[jomanaz]

New to the forum and it is good to find people working with the ultra programming. I have GT Avalanche Ultra DIY build about two years old with 2800 miles of riding on it. Looking to tame the beast so I can ride with analog friends and conserve battery. Have had some success but this thread looks very interesting.

 

[Merle Nelson]

"with the exception of the pesky cut out "

That sounds similar to what I was getting when I would let a finger drag across a brake handle and engage my very sensitive motor cut out switch.

 

[JRA]

That sounds similar to what I was getting when I would let a finger drag across a brake handle and engage my very sensitive motor cut out switch.

No brake cut outs on my bike....It has something to do with the pedal force necessary to keep the assist activated. I'll get it eventually! I suppose those with the non stock controllers really don't have the same access as the simple format the UART provides and have a different set of parameters that you can access?

 

[Gionnirocket]

That sounds similar to what I was getting when I would let a finger drag across a brake handle and engage my very sensitive motor cut out switch.

Yeah I've done that... I rest my fingers on the levers to help with carpal tunnel and if not paying attention you can easily pull one in slightly going over bumps.

 

[theemartymac]

What brakes do you guys have? There should be some adjustment allowing you to introduce a tiny-to-fair bit of dead range before the cutout comes on. If it is a serious enough annoyance, here is the Tektro repair video that shows how a tech should properly set up the sensitivity in the second half.

And here is the redneck equivalent with no special tools, and an obvious 'use at your own risk' disclaimer from me:

Sorry for the hijack; Now back to your regularly scheduled programming already in progress...

 

[ProphetZarquon]

Got out for a ride, got rained on, my hands got really cold because I didn't have on warm enough gloves and quite frankly didn't have a great time. I copied the PZ tune to the number and right away I could tell it wasn't going to work for me. My route starts out of the driveway down hill and you run out of gear pretty fast. However before I did I could feel the motor surging on/off and the pedal feel was decidedly biased towards cadence sensing. I almost turned back because of it but decided to ride it out to see how the other aspects were.

After ripping up the road a mile which I usually do in 4/5 to get it out of the way, it is only the first 1/4 mile that is downhill, I turned onto the logging road entrance and that leads to a long uphill and once again in mode3 that I have been climbing this hill in the pedal feel was decidedly cadence sensing. I only did a small amount of trail ride, less than planned, because it just wasn't feeling right to me and so I stayed on the gravel. I am sorry Prophet but I will be going back to my most recent settings as so far they have felt the best to me in regards to natural pedal feel with no surging.

Throttle is set more powerful than I had mine but not as much as when stock but I'll go back to my old settings where I can mash the throttle all the way down from a standstill and have a nice take off speed/torque. I don't use the throttle for other than that and a walk assist so I don't have it set to operate at higher speed.

Still was getting a cutout at low speed /high torque (just when you need a bit of power) with the PZ tune and I think I know what to mess with there and will try that when putting back my other tune. It's not a big deal because a blip of the throttle keeps you going but shouldn't be there I know.

Fascinating info, thanks for the feedback!

I do not enjoy cadence-based response, so it's disappointing that's what feel you ended up with.

Is your speed limit set to 45 MPH?
11-speed, 11-tooth to 42 tooth cassette, with a 40 tooth chainring?
If so, skip ahead, because...

I strongly suspect we're running different gear ratios, which will radically offset what speeds to engage a given set of torque response settings:

All the fields modified under each "Spd0", "Spd20", "Spd40", "Spd80", & "Spd100" on the Torque tab; StartKg, FullKg, ReturnKg, MinCur, MaxCur, KeepCur, & CurDecay, are entirely dependent on the max speed limit setting (of the display, in this case). Any change in max speed limit, changes which speeds the controller will transition to each set of response levels.

Unless the gear ratios and speed limit are identical, the transition from one level of assist to another, will not occur at a speed appropriate for a gear shift.

Moreover, a large difference in speed limit can move the transition points to totally inappropriate speeds, causing drastically low or high speed onset of those torque response settings.

I'm running a 45 MPH speed limit, on the DPC18 display. The farther from 45 that limit is set, the worse my Torque tab settings are likely to feel.

Anything besides an 11-speed 11t-to-42t cassette with 40t chainring on 27.5" tires with display set to '27 inch' wheels & speed limit set to 45 MPH, will probably feel terrible (especially because I've set the assist levels relatively low, so changes are very noticeable).

The particular Frey AM1000 v5 using this 'Frood' config, came with an 11-speed SRAM Eagle NX shifter on an 11-tooth to 42-tooth cassette.

Unfortunately, I don't think it's possible for any one set of settings on the Torque tab, to accommodate multiple gear ratios or speed limit selections, very well. (Certainly more power can mask the variance a bit though.)

I think the most important thing for anyone seeking to setup a Bafang Ultra, before even trying any other config, is to calibrate the dang torque sensor's Base Voltage mV.

It only takes a moment (click ContinuousGet, & note the median of highest & lowest TqVoltate numbers seen; set your Base Voltage ≥ this median).

Once that's done, other Torque settings can be adjusted & other config files tried. (Your own Base Voltage should be used when loading another config; though not all configs have this calibrated at all...)

Sadly, each build will have different ideal pedal Torque response settings, even if every rider's preferences were the same; so, all we can really do is compare notes & experiment to find what works for each build+rider!

I'm especially interested to find out the cause of the cut-out you're getting (across multiple configs?), & to hear anyone's take on maximizing pedal force responsivenes.

Please do post what config settings you are liking, so I can compare?

And let me know what cassette & speed limit you're using???

(PS: Assuming you've got a Bafang DPC18 display & control buttons, you can switch between PAS 0-5 Eco modes & PAS 0-5 Sport modes, by holding down the + button. If you're trying to avoid excess power & run-on, you'll hate it! Holding + down again, will switch back to Eco.)

(PPS: That video guide you linked is one of the better ones (the textual guide at patransformers can help fill in the missing details), but still doesn't go over how to calibrate the Base Voltage of the torque sensor! And nobody explains well how to figure out, which speeds at which each Spd0\Spd20\etc set of fields will take effect! As I think you're discovering, those steps are kinda crucial, to tune for each specific build!)

 

[ProphetZarquon]

To anyone just discovering that their DPC18 display,
with "five" PAS levels, 0-thru-5,
has both 0-thru-5 Eco, & 0-thru-5 Sport modes,
and can be set to give assist in PAS 0...

Congratulations, you've effectively got 12 different levels of pedal assist!

 

[Jon A]

All the fields modified under each "Spd0", "Spd20", "Spd40", "Spd80", & "Spd100" on the Torque tab; StartKg, FullKg, ReturnKg, MinCur, MaxCur, KeepCur, & CurDecay, are entirely dependent on the max speed limit setting (of the display, in this case). Any change in max speed limit, changes which speeds the controller will transition to each set of response levels.

I'm pretty sure those refer to motor speed (RPM), not bike speed. My bike feels identical with the speed limit set to the max as it does when it's set to 20 MPH...until I hit 20 MPH obviously.

 

[AHicks]

Prophet-
My bike will have a way different setup as well. I'm also using whatever the max value is for max speed. I have an 11t bottom gear, though I hope/plan to avoid using it for reasons already discussed, and a 48t ring gear (in an attempt to avoid having to use the 11t gear). I don't have my head wrapped around the changes you're making, but now wonder if/how/where I could anticipate and correct for the difference in your setup vs. mine, as well as my very likely lower cruise speed (10-14mph).

Clearly I could be mistaken, but I also have the impression those spd(xx) settings were motor rpm.

And last, obtaining the "continuous get" calibration number that you are using for your start voltage. This is obtained with the bike just sitting there and clicking on "continuous get"?

Noteworthy maybe, is that currently I can get PAS 2 torque sensed assist values, while using an effort amount I'm OK with/can maintain, that vary from -0- to nearly 400w. This allows me to ride in most conditions using just 5th and 6th gear without having to constantly change gears and PAS levels. I'm a little nervous about screwing that up with attempts to make this Ultra work any better than it is currently. Thoughts? TIA -Al

 

[Gionnirocket]

Prophet-
My bike will have a way different setup as well. I'm also using whatever the max value is for max speed. I have an 11t bottom gear, though I hope/plan to avoid using it for reasons already discussed, and a 48t ring gear (in an attempt to avoid having to use the 11t gear). I don't have my head wrapped around the changes you're making, but now wonder if/how/where I could anticipate and correct for the difference in your setup vs. mine, as well as my very likely lower cruise speed (10-14mph).

Clearly I could be mistaken, but I also have the impression those spd(xx) settings were motor rpm.

And last, obtaining the "continuous get" calibration number that you are using for your start voltage. This is obtained with the bike just sitting there and clicking on "continuous get"?

Noteworthy maybe, is that currently I can get PAS 2 torque sensed assist values, while using an effort amount I'm OK with/can maintain, that vary from -0- to nearly 400w. This allows me to ride in most conditions using just 5th and 6th gear without having to constantly change gears and PAS levels. I'm a little nervous about screwing that up with attempts to make this Ultra work any better than it is currently. Thoughts? TIA -Al

The max speed limit referred to is in the DISPLAY, not the controller.. and as such it is mph.
And I wouldn't worry too much about loosing anything.. Just save your current file as your fall back.
If I didn't continue to experiment I would have never found the elevated Stop Decay setting that has made the BBSO2B a gentle giant.
Now get to tinkering!

 

[Gionnirocket]

What brakes do you guys have? There should be some adjustment allowing you to introduce a tiny-to-fair bit of dead range before the cutout comes on. If it is a serious enough annoyance, here is the Tektro repair video that shows how a tech should properly set up the sensitivity in the second half.

And here is the redneck equivalent with no special tools, and an obvious 'use at your own risk' disclaimer from me:

Sorry for the hijack; Now back to your regularly scheduled programming already in progress...

Thanks!
I'm rolling with the base Bafang levers and cable pull hydraulic calipers so the adjustments shown do not apply. There are two screws on the bottom of the lever and I assume it is to remove/replace the sensor but it doesn't look like it would provide adjustment. Possibly underneath the plate there maybe be some... but it's not broke enough at this juncture to warrant fixing.
And I've broken many a thing to know when to leave well enough alone.

 

[JRA]

@ProphetZarquon I don't have much computer time today but here is the short story:

Here are my settings as of 2/22/22 that I am reasonably happy with and have gotten rid of the low speed cutout, unfortunately @Jon A I am not 100% sure how....But I do suspect it was setting the Base Voltage mv via the Continuous Get button as describe by PZ above. Otherwise no run on and decent pedal feel just around the yard. I have a friend who also has a Z1 coming by in a bit to have me Corn Head grease his motor and dump this tune on so I will also get his feedback and we may mess around some more with the settings so call it still a work in progress?



As I said I am pretty much windows illiterate thus the crappy pics.....Oh, and I have a 36t/11-50 gear setup because I am more about high torque than speed for how and where I ride. Tops out at about 25mph on flat ground which is fine with me.

 

[AHicks]

Thanks! Looking like I have some major "tinkering" to do. I'll compare both sets to what I have, and if I feel my existing settings are worth anything compared to these, I'll post them for all to compare/consider.

 

[theemartymac]

@ProphetZarquon

As I said I am pretty much windows illiterate thus the crappy pics.....Oh, and I have a 36t/11-50 gear setup because I am more about high torque than speed for how and where I ride. Tops out at about 25mph on flat ground which is fine with me.

Pressing "Shift+WindowsKey+S" will allow you to drag a box across any part of your screen and then paste that clipping straight into a forum thread, email, or document just like I did below. You can also paste it into mspaint - included in any windows OS, and save it to make a really clean file for future reference without opening the Bafang software tool.

 

[JRA]

My friend just left a happy biker. The Corn Head grease job went fast and easy second time around and he was very happy about how it quieted his bike down. His had about twice as much grease in it than mine did, but still not much, and was a greenish color and mine was white. Although there was more it was not getting to where it needed to be where the gears actually mesh. Cleaned it out first of course.

Plugged him in and wrote in the new tune, note that the battery has to be in the bike with the down tube button on for it to connect, and we went of it line by line so that he had a bit of understanding about it. The tune suited him well and just needed to do a bit of adjustment on the throttle after his test ride. He thought that you could adjust the throttle to mirror the mode levels though which it can't and that took some explaining. Got it so he was happy with the way it comes on and so he can use it at all speeds because he does use the throttle more while riding. He was much happier with the pedal start up and mellower assist levels in modes 1/2 over the stock "Special Sauce" for sure as well as the lack of run on. I would call it a success all around.