Bafang Ultra "Smooth" tune by Mike at Frey

[Ebiker33]

I was looking at the Bafang website today, and I think I know why the ultra comes with programing that most find needs to be tuned, Bafang programed this motor as an Ecargo motor not a Emtb motor; instead they recommend their less powerful M600 motor for that. Yet tons of Ebike companies have said lets get the most powerful motor Bafang makes and stick it on a Emtb style Ebike.
Then they tinker with the programing to make it better or stick another controller in there. If Bafang was smart they would make a V2 of this same motor programmed especially for Emtb.
I think Sondors and Luna got them to make custom changes to theirs, but then again they are buying a 100 motors or more so it makes it worth it for them.
I heard a rumor that they might be working on a generic version to sell to everybody in 2022.

 

[AHicks]

It really isn't that hard to program a UART motor. Way easier than pulling out your motor and sending it to Watt Wagons and reinstalling your motor. Trust me, I've done it twice, don't look forward to doing it again, lol. The win is you get a better controller, but not sure throttle jockeys benefit as much.

If you're afraid of PCs you could try this app instead, assuming you have an android phone. Just need a USB to OTG adapter which you can find cheap on amazon if you don't have one. While it isn't fully compatible with the ultra yet (doesn't have the torque sensing screens), it should allow you to program throttle from standstill.

Agreed you can soften that startup easily (UART bus), but it's with the thought that much of the "smooth" transformation magic comes from the changes made to the torque sensing. A "smooth" motor is MUCH more responsive to changes in torque than the OEM program ever thought of being......

I was looking at the Bafang website today, and I think I know why the ultra comes with programing that most find needs to be tuned, Bafang programed this motor as an Ecargo motor not a Emtb motor; instead they recommend their less powerful M600 motor for that. Yet tons of Ebike companies have said lets get the most powerful motor Bafang makes and stick it on a Emtb style Ebike.
Then they tinker with the programing to make it better or stick another controller in there. If Bafang was smart they would make a V2 of this same motor programmed especially for Emtb.
I think Sondors and Luna got them to make custom changes to theirs, but then again they are buying a 100 motors or more so it makes it worth it for them.
I heard a rumor that they might be working on a generic version to sell to everybody in 2022.

The Bafang promise early on was that dealers, or SOMEBODY, would be able to make tuning changes to the new CANBUS Ultra's as required. To my knowledge, that never happened. I don't know that ANYONE is able to change ANYTHING - yet. The CANBUS controller is really locked down well - for the moment.

 

[tomjasz]

The CANBUS controller is really locked down well - for the moment.

A mechanic I’m familiar with has been experimenting with a hardware programming solution. I’m under the impression it’s close to completed.

I’m completely disappointed in Bafang mid drives and Bafang support. Doug and I tried to get basic BBSxx series serial numbers linked to product changes. As far as I know ever the biggest resellers never got that support either. Likewise with warranty replacements. Bafang stuck resellers with the cost. I keep hoping someone else will produce competitive drives. So far the alternatives are disappointing. I do have a couple of friends running LighteningRods.

 

[Ebiker33]

In Luna's write up they are saying only the M600, are they wrong? Maybe they have older motors they are using?
Here is the quote from their website for their new Z1 Enduro

"This is essentially the same bike as our newly released X2, with the exception of the motor which is the Bafang Ultra (Magnesium version of m620) which is larger and considered a bit more stable than the m600 which we use on the X2. It also has the advantage of not having the crappy Bafang CANBus firmware which requires special box and special permission to program. This drive can be programmed as simply as the BBSHD or BBS02 using any Bafang programming cable. The m620 also has a significantly larger motor core which makes it more reliable at higher power levels."

 

[rtp]

In Luna's write up they are saying only the M600, are they wrong? Maybe they have older motors they are using?
Here is the quote from their website for their new Z1 Enduro

"This is essentially the same bike as our newly released X2, with the exception of the motor which is the Bafang Ultra (Magnesium version of m620) which is larger and considered a bit more stable than the m600 which we use on the X2. It also has the advantage of not having the crappy Bafang CANBus firmware which requires special box and special permission to program. This drive can be programmed as simply as the BBSHD or BBS02 using any Bafang programming cable. The m620 also has a significantly larger motor core which makes it more reliable at higher power levels."

For the Z1, Luna either bought up the Ultra UART inventory or got an agreement to continue to receive UART Ultra motors instead of CANBUS... so yes, UART Ultras can use the Bafang programming cable and tool and are programmed like the BBHSD with the addition of an added tab for 'Torque.'

CANBUS Ultras, like the new Biktrix Monte and others - are SOL for programmability unless using something like the WW Archon or other replacement controller (of which there are...very few)...at least at the moment.

 

[Ebiker33]

For the Z1, Luna either bought up the Ultra UART inventory or got an agreement to continue to receive UART Ultra motors instead of CANBUS... so yes, UART Ultras can use the Bafang programming cable and tool and are programmed like the BBHSD with the addition of an added tab for 'Torque.'

CANBUS Ultras, like the new Biktrix Monte and others - are SOL for programmability unless using something like the WW Archon or other replacement controller (of which there are...very few)...at least at the moment.

Roshan from Biktrix says he is working on a solution for it, but nothing yet. He has a good relationship with Bafang he was allowed to access the hex coding on the last version, and that is next level, Bafang doesn't allow too many people that level of access, and they would need to know what they are doing as well.

 

[rtp]

Roshan from Biktrix says he is working on a solution for it, but nothing yet. He has a good relationship with Bafang he was allowed to access to the hex coding on the last version, and that is next level, Bafang doesn't allow too many people that level of access, and they would need to know what they are doing as well.

Yep - I think I asked him the same in his forum. Not sure what the 'solution' entails.. Luna has a viable VESC-based controller now for BBHSD and the M600 - it's not a stretch to see them make it available for Ultras (if they decide to), otherwise WattWagon/Innotrace/Excess - would be nice if there at least were another option on the table of some kind IMO.

 

[AHicks]

Roshan from Biktrix says he is working on a solution for it, but nothing yet. He has a good relationship with Bafang he was allowed to access the hex coding on the last version, and that is next level, Bafang doesn't allow too many people that level of access, and they would need to know what they are doing as well.

I'll believe it when I see it. Betting he's no further ahead on this than the folks at Frey.

 

[Ebiker33]

So is all this done so they can sell these into Europe and people can't tune them up?
If so it is such a waste, if they are programming it down to 250W and leaving it that, it's massive overkill for any Ebike in Europe.

 

[AHicks]

So is all this done so they can sell these into Europe and people can't tune them up?
If so it is such a waste, if they are programming it down to 250W and leaving it that, it's massive overkill for any Ebike in Europe.

Absolutely no idea on the logic behind the CanBus change. Reduced warranty costs? From what I've read here, the UART bus didn't generate that many complaints, other than those complaints generated by the crappy programming that came from Bafang.

 

[rtp]

So is all this done so they can sell these into Europe and people can't tune them up?
If so it is such a waste, if they are programming it down to 250W and leaving it that, it's massive overkill for any Ebike in Europe.

Yeah, I don't quite get this.
True, the market in Europe is larger - how much Bafang can make inroads = no idea. I can see them doing CANBUS on the M500 and M400 - the lower output motors..heck, didn't France pass some crazy high $$ penalty law for 'tuning' of ebike motors?

For the others - M600, Ultra, etc.. - it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Ironically, some of the typical EU bikes are starting to become more programmable...
It's possible Bafang thinks they'll allow <something> via their Bafang Go app at some point, and try to push more into 'a full Bafang system' for motor/battery etc... but it's going to wind up costing them $ in non-European countries and inevitably someone else will step in to fill the 'gap' or they'll step up..

 

[Ebiker33]

Yeah, I don't quite get this.
True, the market in Europe is larger - how much Bafang can make inroads = no idea. I can see them doing CANBUS on the M500 and M400 - the lower output motors..heck, didn't France pass some crazy high $$ penalty law for 'tuning' of ebike motors?

For the others - M600, Ultra, etc.. - it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Ironically, some of the typical EU bikes are starting to become more programmable...
It's possible Bafang thinks they'll allow <something> via their Bafang Go app at some point, and try to push more into 'a full Bafang system' for motor/battery etc... but it's going to wind up costing them $ in non-European countries and inevitably someone else will step in to fill the 'gap' or they'll step up..

Does that Bafang Go app allow some minor programing on their Canbus system?

 

[D. Stevenson]

Does that Bafang Go app allow some minor programing on their Canbus system?

I tuned my Frey CC with the Ultra motor to the Smooth Tune and have never regretted it. When I first got the bike about a year ago, It was really to fast at the lower PAS settings. It was a real blowtorch. I'm 81 and it was a little too much to handle. I felt unsafe even though I am very used to flying aircraft upside down or hang gliding. The Smooth settings really make a positive difference for me. I understand everyone has a different requirement on what they believe their bike should feel like but this Smooth tune is something I am happy with. It very is controllable at low speeds now and I feel much safer. Last week, a 25 mile jaunt.

 

[Bubba zanetti]

Does that Bafang Go app allow some minor programing on their Canbus system?

I have read conflicting info on that. Would love to know some genuine experience of doing so.

 

[D. Stevenson]

I have read conflicting info on that. Would love to know some genuine experience of doing so.

My bike has the original Uart Buss. My only problem in configuring the motor was finding the com ports. I ended up using com 3. Other than that it was a walk in the park to tune it.. Next want to try and change some of the Motor Settings using the Android Program Speeed. Some Guy (brilliant programmer) named Marcin Koppa made the program but I don't know if I will screw up the ULtra by changing some of my present settings. I do know his program works wonderfully on Bafang BBS01 to the BBSHD but it does not do torque serrings. Maybe this gentleman will make something for the Bafang Can buss at a later date, or at least make his present program work with the Ultra, Uart motor.

 

[rtp]

Does that Bafang Go app allow some minor programing on their Canbus system?

At the moment, not that I can tell. Seems to work with UART or CANBUS systems looking at the Changelog, but also seemingly poor quality and unfinished from reviews. It seems to connect to GPS and fitness apps, claims to be able to record ride data, and at least shows some bike configuration.

They ‘could’ do something with it - if the decided to… although my experience in tech with most Chinese software… has not been great quality in general.
We’ll see…

 

[Taylor57]

I requested throttle from 0 as well and it was agreed upon. I did not receive it. I am older and not very computer Savy. Doubt i could upgrade the controller even with instructions. i will be getting the Watt Wagon controller. I really need the throttle from zero to get me moving, particularly on hills.

I tuned my Frey CC with the Ultra motor to the Smooth Tune and have never regretted it. When I first got the bike about a year ago, It was really to fast at the lower PAS settings. It was a real blowtorch. I'm 81 and it was a little too much to handle. I felt unsafe even though I am very used to flying aircraft upside down or hang gliding. The Smooth settings really make a positive difference for me. I understand everyone has a different requirement on what they believe their bike should feel like but this Smooth tune is something I am happy with. It very is controllable at low speeds now and I feel much safer. Last week, a 25 mile jaunt.
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Does your bike have throttle from a dead stop?

 

[D. Stevenson]

Does your bike have throttle from a dead stop?

No, I could have programmed it in but I felt that it was powerful enough to start from PAS 1 and 1/4 Pedal rotation.

 

[theemartymac]

I'm certainly not a programmer, but as I understand it the move to Can bus makes total sense and should be a benefit down the road as more third-party manufacturers build with Bafang components and integrate other smart parts. Can bus needs no central controller (Host) as each Canbus device on the network is it's own boss. Therefore Bafang doesn't need to provide the controller or create the software for each unique manufacturer. Can bus was developed for complex automotive systems as it is much better at managing multiple devices and automatically managing the priority of messages sent on the network to make sure the important ones don't get dropped (which in e-bike land means errors and faults). This also means less wires used in the build, and easier integration of new or third party components once Bafang shares the protocol with them (or it's hacked if they don't choose to go as open-source as they have in the past). It should natively work better over wifi, and allow the entire bike to become a true 'smart' device. Bosch actually developed the CAN Bus system for automotive, so it makes sense that it is running it already in Ebike systems and that's partly why so many 3rd party manufacturers can integrate Bosch into their own bikes so seamlessly with complex systems.

Today's simpler builds probably don't NEED it quite yet, but as more and more complex toys are developed and integrated on our rides, it should allow Bafang systems to be far more complex and integrated like say those Bosch builds. Adding things like 2-way detailed battery management, wireless displays, phone integration, wifi updates, multiple sensors, etc, all gets easier on a Can bus network.

 

[JRA]

I'm sure you are probably right but it gives me a headache to think about it.