Bafang Ultra "Smooth" tune by Mike at Frey

[opimax]

On my WW UC my throttle is 1100 watts. When ever I hit the throttle it is 100% on for short distances my use. The throttle has priority over my PAS. If I am in the red power mode all 5 levels can produce more than 1100 watts so if I hit the throttle while leisure pedaling (bellow 1100 watts) the bike accelerates as it always does when using the throttle get a boost BUT if I am pedaling hard (using more than 1100 watts) and I use the throttle it has control and brings the watts to 1100 and I am have less power actually available even while pedaling… so I think of my throttle as 1100 watts of power when ever I use it. If I was using more watts as the throttle engages you can feel the power drop and can be detriment

my cruise in my Benz van activately slows the van down after using the acccelrator while cruising. it may think it is a hill and slow down since the cruise tries to keep you a set speed both from above and below the speed set

 

[daveybike]

Ha!, Sorry Al, but the entire point may have been missed. I don't use "speed" mode because it does cut off PAS assist when it engages, I use "current" mode and everything is fine. From day one, 2 years ago, It's always been that way on my Hardtail Ultra and my FS ultra with a DPC18 display and just reversed with the 500C display. I just wondered if others saw the same thing on their Ultra driven bikes. We can probably move on, sorry for all the confusion.

 

[AHicks]

So it's acting/CAPABLE of acting weird, but you don't care because it's a function you don't use now, and have no plans to use?

 

[Haystacks]

Ha!, Sorry Al, but the entire point may have been missed. I don't use "speed" mode because it does cut off PAS assist when it engages, I use "current" mode and everything is fine. From day one, 2 years ago, It's always been that way on my Hardtail Ultra and my FS ultra with a DPC18 display and just reversed with the 500C display. I just wondered if others saw the same thing on their Ultra driven bikes. We can probably move on, sorry for all the confusion.

Just forget it. As you know Current/Speed mode is Bafang programming 101 that's why you did it on day one, this guy doesn't do detail or reading but he does like to argue he's correct in the face of facts, just leave him to it and have a wry chuckle when he's talking bollocks or more revealing noting those who support his bollocks (jockstraps?)

 

[AHicks]

Just forget it. As you know Current/Speed mode is Bafang programming 101 that's why you did it on day one, this guy doesn't do detail or reading but he does like to argue he's correct in the face of facts, just leave him to it and have a wry chuckle when he's talking bollocks or more revealing noting those who support his bollocks (jockstraps?)

As usual, another contribution adding NOTHING but smack talk to the topic at hand. Thank you so much!

Hey, while I'm at it, you never bothered to respond when I asked you for PROOF that CANBUS Ultra parameters can be modified by an end user with no Linux CANBUS programming experience? More smack talk, or did you learn something/find out you were wrong?

 

[Haystacks]

As usual, another contribution adding NOTHING but smack talk to the topic at hand. Thank you so much!

Hey, while I'm at it, you never bothered to respond when I asked you for PROOF that CANBUS Ultra parameters can be modified by an end user with no Linux CANBUS programming experience? More smack talk, or did you learn something/find out you were wrong?

You're doing it again making a fool of yourself using terminology you aren't fluent in to try to look engaged. Linux? BESST and the local bafang server run on windows (could be run on linux) this is why i don't bother with you, you just don't understand the language or technology, then sit on here offering advice, pathetic.

This poor bloke has been trying to explain something real simple to you and as per usual you shove your fingers in your ears, lalalalala.

 

[AHicks]

Regarding the BESST tool, for anyone interested. Here's what Luna's add reads like (not very encouraging, but hey maybe I am wrong). Haystack has never used it, but HE says it works on CAN-BUS Ultra's! Go for it!

Luna:
This box allows you to change your m600 drive to a Bafang stock controller firmware or change to the Luna custom firmware and then back again.

It will come with 3 different versions of firmware you can try including Bafangs latest firmware 14.6.
(Note: sounds to me like individual parameters cannot be changed? Haystack thinks differently. Ask Him.)

This box will not allow you to customize your own settings at this point... not even dealers are given that ability yet. However if Bafang decides to offer in the future for their firmware to be customized this box would allow you to do it.

Right now it is only good for writing different firmwares on your drive which will change the performance characteristics of the drive slightly with either bafangs or lunas custom settings. For example the amount of power in each pedal assist level.

We are selling this box at our cost of $100.

Note:
This requires a windows computer.
(Note: the BESST tool uses Windows....)

This is sold for using with our Bafang M600 motors. Maybe it will work with other bafang motors but this is not advertised or supported.

Bafang Besst Service Tool

Distributors and builders of life changing electric bikes.

lunacycle.com

Then, there's this, kind of a review regarding CANBUS, with some Ultra related info toward the bottom of the page. Of particular interest are notes by users "stancecoke" and "casainho" who are both brainiacs when it comes to this sort of thing. To save you some time - from Casainho - which I believe sums up current state of the art:

"You can buy a USB CAN device in EBay or AliExpress for 15 euros and then use the "cantools" software on Linux, were you can easily read, write or log can packages.

Also there are graphic utils for Linux to reverse engineer can packages data, just search "linux canbus reverse engineer".

Bafang M620/G510 (and all other Bafang motors) now on CAN-BUS (2021+) rather than UART (2018-2020)?

Hi, I just ordered a Bafang Ultra (aka M620 aka G510) and was surprised when Bafang specified on the invoice that the display would be a CAN-BUS version as opposed to being a UART version. They confirmed this morning to me that they have changed the manufacturing and that they are NOT producing...

endless-sphere.com

 

[eBikeaholic]

It's really disappointing that Bafang is going in this direction. Adding a c-note to a new project really sucks - but I'm glad to hear that Luna is trying to help us sort this out.

Ultimately at this point in the game Bafang (and the aftermarket controller developers) need to just give us more programming settings (or even just more mode options) via the display. I don't think car manufacturer's would be very popular if they required average users to hack their chips for basic adjustments.

 

[mxer]

Just finished my bike ordered the motor and frame in 2021 before I was aware of can bus. Thankfully it's UART!!.. and I'm programming away .. lol.

Thanks for the debate on "speed Vs current" much clearer changed to current going riding tomorrow .

 

[SlowRider76]

So recently I decided to scrap all of my original ideas, which all seemed to dead end, and try something completely new. I went back to all of the original settings, and when I test drove that, it reminded me how bad those setting really are. No point detailing, if you're reading this you likely already know....

So I spent an entire day working to improve them. Some stuff worked, some didn't. Some seemed like a move in the right direction, some the wrong.

So I started looking for a "my favorite" setup, the whole thing, that looked like it might work for me, with the idea I could trim it here and there. All that messing around did teach me enough to have some very general ideas of what I was looking for.

Enter the Frey "Smooth" programming, found here (using a Google search), towards the end of their very informative article (page 11 of 16).

Bafang Ultra Review. Most powerful Mid-Drive PAS motor just got better

The Bafand Ultra is here. You might not know it by looking at it, but this 48V mid-drive is packing 1,500W peak of power at 160Nm of torque, more than any other PAS e-bike motor on the market. Here we look at it in detail.

frey-bafang.patransformers.com

The early part of the article provides some of the latest thinking regarding each line item for all 4 of the pages, including the pages populated with the Bafang supplied settings used on recent motors - up to the point they employed the "pedal first" technology I believe.

Anyway, I installed the "Smooth" set up pretty much line for line. The entire thing, then I test rode it. BIG GRIN!!!!

I believe MANY guys will REALLY enjoy it. It is so civilized, very powerful, makes riding much more intuitive..... well, I could go on, but it would be easier to say I think it's worth a try to anyone looking to improve the stock Bafang setup without going over the top.

Seriously, start here.....

I did make one notable change, and that was to program PAS 0 like most would program PAS 1. So there is NO PAS 0 on my bike (with no throttle or PAS). I decided I would much rather have 6 PAS levels than 5. Personally, PAS 0 is something I never use! On the Base (1st) page you are given the chance to program PAS 0 though PAS 9. If you are using 5 PAS levels (as I believe many are), you would be interested in PAS 1, 3, 5, 7, and 9. Programming PAS 0 adds another to that list.

I lowered the value used in PAS 1 a hair for PAS 0, to 11, then adjusted PAS 1 to 16, PAS 3 to 23, and adjusted the rest (5,7 and 9) to bring the rest into alignment.

Works great.... At low speeds, I have a little better control now over how much power is being used. Prior, I rode mostly on PAS 1 with occasional 2, and 3 on big hills. Now, I can use 0, 1, 2, 3, and 4 on the big hills. I went from 3 PAS settings that I use frequently, to 5. If that makes any sense.....

Only a few miles on the set up right now, but all I see is BIG improvements, with no downside. -Al

I was rolling this for months now, since they released initial configuration. Then they updated it, made it even better. Mine is a copy with twin magnet. Bike is mainly used at MTB, trails. It rocks.
They also posted new post, interesting read as bike they review have Bafang Ultra motor in it: Frey EX Pro long term review

 

[SlowRider76]

Sorry, but I'm not understanding. The sentence I quoted doesn't make sense to me, English-wise. I don't know what Delta Voltage is and that explanation was of absolutely zero help.

I do see that Frey's settings for Delta Voltage are different and more of a ramp, but they're also in the exact opposite direction as stock or other brands. I don't understand why, nor even what this means.

Here's the comparison of Frey to Luna:

DELTA VOLTAGE (MV)

	Smooth	Luna
0-5 Kg	900	200
5-10 Kg	500	200
10-15 Kg	300	200
15-20 Kg	200	200
20-30 Kg	200	400
30-40 Kg	200	400
40-50 Kg	100	400
50-60 Kg	100	400

So why do the "Smooth" setting start out high and go lower while the stock and other brand setting start low and go higher? I can understand why ramping might be smoother, but not why an opposite direction. And since the explanation for "Delta Voltage" is confusing I don't even know what the heck they're talking about.

The answer to your question about smooth tune in details.
Delta Voltage is voltage output by "Load Cell" or "torque sensor" minus base voltage. It's called Delta, because it's a fixed span. Say your load cell output 800mV as base line without load. With 10Kg load it will generate 1800mV. The Delta Voltage is 1000mV.
Delta Voltage VS KG table looks like this in order to make ride more natural. As you pedal light, it gives you more accurate/precise control over motor assist. As you press harder to get more power it become progressively more sensitive (more power per unit of pedal pressure). But, as you start to apply lot's of pressure on pedals, system become aggressive with smaller voltage variation generating a lot more power assist.
If you struggle to get the concept, just reprogram controller in reverse settings where 100mV Delta Voltage will be 0-5kg setting. You will get in idea, just wear helmet

This is actually similar to the car's accelerator pedals. OEM's tune them to be progressive, so car drive smoothly, less jerky on minor pedal input. Otherwise Porsche GTS will spin the wheels every time you accidently slightly tap accelerator

 

[Gionnirocket]

Gionnirocket, We all ride differently. Obviously, our bikes and setups are not the same. I don't use the throttle to ride any distance, its for a quick up an incline, up a rock step, through a snowbank or mud puddle. Other than a pedal strike situation, Why would I "STOP PEDALING"???. If I wanted to slow down I would not need the throttle and.... I'm not changing PAS for just 10 or 20ft of track. BTW: off-topic, the "smooth" programming adds greatly to this feature.
Because your bike works differently or you use it in a different way and/or you have never had a certain feature does not make that feature wrong. This is a discussion, not a debate. I was just sharing how my particular setup worked. Critique me all you want, but to criticize me for riding a different way is I assume not what this forum is set up for.
- Not sure what cruise control you have, but my Mazda stays locked in and allows me to add acceleration at will. My cruise control acceleration does not suddenly die when I hit my gas, it allows me to add then slows back down to the original setting when I release the throttle. That actually makes way more sense.
Thanks for your insight, but please let me ride how I enjoy without telling me why I shouldn't. Especially if your bike does not even have the option. I look forward to more Bafang discussions. Thx.

I really don't know what your malfunction is especially when my post states my experience with my bike and in my opinion in response to another post, not yours... but since you assumed and got your panties all in a bunch, let me elaborate.
The controller works the way it works. When I say stop pedaling I mean for the instant you need throttle. I use throttle much in the same manner you do, as a quick burst over increased resistance. Now if you want full range and full control over the throttle, you must stop pedaling for those few seconds. I have the coordination skills that allow me to do this without delay or loss of speed... actually I gain the speed/power desired. If it's more than just a few seconds... a quick toggle up then down the PAS scale allows me to do the same but continue to pedal as I don't ride lazy.
As far as your car cruise control it does the same exact thing... It disengages during gas pedal input and resumes when you lift your foot off. It is not taking both inputs and implementing some logic though it maybe smoother as a cars computer is a bit more sophisticated. Now you can do the same with your bike if you continue pedaling... But throttle control is not as accurate.
So do what you want, ride as you want but understand that I do not experience anything that is just rotten or drives me nuts.

 

[daveybike]

Just finished my bike ordered the motor and frame in 2021 before I was aware of can bus. Thankfully it's UART!!.. and I'm programming away .. lol.

Thanks for the debate on "speed Vs current" much clearer changed to current going riding tomorrow .

Hey MXER, Great!! Good luck with the new setup. Let us know what you find on the "Current" vs "Speed" choice. Also I myself really enjoying the new "smooth" settings, I'm curious if you tried or plan on trying.

 

[theonlythomasjohnson]

I understand this thread deals with modifying the Bafang Ultra mid-motor. Are there also threads that discuss modifying the settings for a Bafang Hub motor (I have a new Sondors Fold XS with a Bafang 750W rear hub motor (RM G060.750D 07) producing 80 Nm of torque. The battery is 48V x 14Ah L-ion with Panasonic cells, and gearing is 7-speed Shimano 14x28T.

This setup delivers a top speed of 25 mph (more than enough for my needs), but could use more hill-climbing torque.

 

[AHicks]

I understand this thread deals with modifying the Bafang Ultra mid-motor. Are there also threads that discuss modifying the settings for a Bafang Hub motor (I have a new Sondors Fold XS with a Bafang 750W rear hub motor (RM G060.750D 07) producing 80 Nm of torque. The battery is 48V x 14Ah L-ion with Panasonic cells, and gearing is 7-speed Shimano 14x28T.

This setup delivers a top speed of 25 mph (more than enough for my needs), but could use more hill-climbing torque.

On the bold, we all could! Unfortunately, Bafang's geared hub motors use 3rd party vendors for the controller/displays. They are not made by Bafang as Bafang's mid drive motors are. There's nearly as many of these 3rd party controller suppliers as there are brands of bikes. MOST of these controllers are locked down, with very little adjustment available. If you want an adjustable gear driven rear hub controller you need to go on the aftermarket, where the KT controllers are pretty popular - but they are NOT straight plug and play. You have to have a pretty good working knowlege of how an e-bike works - OR - be willing to take the time to learn.

 

[Bubba zanetti]

Just getting organized to do this tune on my M620. Question … has anyone used a chrome laptop for this or does it require a recent version of Windows ??

 

[theemartymac]

Just getting organized to do this tune on my M620. Question … has anyone used a chrome laptop for this or does it require a recent version of Windows ??

I initially had trouble getting the right USB driver for the app to work with the cable I had, and some others have reported similar results. You can certainly try, but just be aware there are potentially unique windows drivers that may be required...

 

[Bubba zanetti]

Thanks. I’ll try and borrow a windows device then. Hate doing battle with drivers.

 

[rtp]

I have tried it, and things aren't clearer. Maybe I'm dense. At times I felt I was having to pedal harder than before, but at the end of the ride I consumed more battery than I did previously on the same ride (and more than my wife on the Luna-stock settings - she has the same Apollo I do).

I did re-re-reread Michael's page, the final time top to bottom without skipping. Turns out he tries to explain Delta Voltage earlier in the page, before the "Smooth" settings section:


While clear in terms of English, I still don't understand it.
And if doing a ramp is preferable, why the 900-500-300-200-200-200-100-100 psuedo-ramp instead of something that doesn't replicate values?

Finally, a note about Luna's settings. Luna sells the Apollo and Apex as off-road single-track capable eBikes. They outfit them with off-road tires. So, I suspect Luna's settings may be geared for the more power needed at slower-speed and more abrupt changes in terrain than if you were programming for mostly on-road.

Sorry if this is answered later, am browsing Ultra and BBS* programming as I contemplate my next ebike…
The quoted part makes it sound like the Ultra torque sensor gives a voltage output in the mV (unsure of top voltage output) and the Delta Voltage as described then is basically doing a ’mapping’ over to the pre-defined torque ratings…so changing the Delta Voltage values would put you into a different ‘row’ of the Tq map….
?

 

[AHicks]

Sorry if this is answered later, am browsing Ultra and BBS* programming as I contemplate my next ebike…
The quoted part makes it sound like the Ultra torque sensor gives a voltage output in the mV (unsure of top voltage output) and the Delta Voltage as described then is basically doing a ’mapping’ over to the pre-defined torque ratings…so changing the Delta Voltage values would put you into a different ‘row’ of the Tq map….
?

This has nothing to do with your question, but-
Just a thought. I'm not REAL sure the CANBUS based programming used on 2021 and newer motor is going to look anything like the UART based stuff. They may have a whole new way of approaching things using "lessons learned" messing with the UART motors. I'm not saying that's going to happen or not, more along the lines of wishful thinking/best guess. It would sure be nice if we had the same control over what we're looking to do, while using a MUCH simpler/clearer format. More "dummy proof" if you will....

Unfortunately, we're stuck in "wait and see" mode. -Al