Alternative Display and Controller for NCM (DAS-KIT)

[PCeBiker]

 

[PCeBiker]

I had to cut a small yellow wire to give me some room.
It's going to the display. I think it's the control wire to turn the controller on.
I can reattach that wire with a splice, and the bike is still fully functional. (hopefully)

I'm going to detach the motor wires, and PAS sensor wires to attach them to my KT controller.

I want to use my motor connector so that I don't have to splice 9 wires into the cable after the connector.
I'm keeping the cadence sensor too and will wire that directly into the KT controller as well.

All the wires look right with proper colors and placement.

 

[PCeBiker]

I'm removing my Das-Kit Controller and Display as well as my cadence sensor/PAS sensor because it is connected directly to the controller with a 3 inch wire, and I don't want any sensors on my bike at all.
I'll delete my speedometer too or just let it read 72 kph for kicks.

I intend to sell everything including the headlight, throttle, PAS sensor and all connectors as a plug and play off-road kit for someone in Australia, New Zealand, or Europe.

So, that's not going to happen.
I was expecting my motor cable to fit.

I'm going to wire the cadence sensor as well as entire motor cable, including the connector, directly into my KT controller.

I now have access to all the wires and I can disconnect them from the Das-Kit and reconnect them to the KT controller.

 

[AHicks]

See if you can identify the firing order for the heavy red/green/blu wires on the original controller. It's important for a trouble free install!!! Each wire is generally identified as a, b, or c, or 1, 2, or 3 on the board right near where the wire is soldered to the board.

Counting on a color match has been pretty spotty in my experience (green to green, etc.) 50/50 at best. If you can identify the firing order on the original controller board, you can easily match that to the KT board that's always plainly marked. Holler for more help if needed AFTER you look to see how both boards are set up. If one side is marked a,b,c, and the other is 1,2,3, the "a" wire will go to "1", etc.

If the firing order the motor needs doesn't match the controller firing order, you will have the honor of trying all the various color combos until you get a match, so there's no screwing around here.....

In other words, if your green wire is going to "B" on the original controller, you want to hook that wire to the "2" or "B" on the KT board - REGARDLESS of what color wire KT is using in that position. DO NOTE what color that wire is, as you'll need that info to connect the green sensor wire!!

The sensor wires will install in the same order the big wires install.

 

[PCeBiker]

. If you can identify the firing order on the original controller board, you can easily match that to the KT board

I think blue and yellow are swapped?

 

[PCeBiker]

I remember from electronics class that a capacitor gives a 60° phase shift.
Two capacitors in series give a 120° phase shift.

120°, 240°, and 360°

 

[PCeBiker]

If the firing order the motor needs doesn't match the controller firing order, you will have the honor of trying all the various color combos until you get a match, so there's no screwing around here.....

I remember this from math class.
3 wires have 6 combinations.
6 wires have (6×5×4×3×2×1)= 720 combinations.

If there are 3 unidentified heavy wires and 6 unidentified sensor wires the total combinations are 6×720=4,320.

So, there is 4,320 different ways of hooking up three heavy wires and six sensor wires.

 

[PCeBiker]

See if you can identify the firing order for the heavy red/green/blu wires on the original controller. It's important for a trouble free install!!! Each wire is generally identified as a, b, or c, or 1, 2, or 3 on the board right near where the wire is soldered to the board.

I'll try to carefully dig away more potting to see if I can see what's printed on the board.

The potting material is more like window caulking. It picks away quite easily. It's not like ordinary silicone.

 

[PCeBiker]

@AHicks
Is there any kind of testing that I can do with my Das-Kit Controller to try and decipher the the wires?
I'm pretty sure it will operate if I reconnect the little yellow wire that I cut?
Or do I need an oscilloscope to do any testing?

When I start cutting wires off my Das-Kit Controller, I'll be sure to take lots of pictures first, and leave ¼" of wire on the circuit board so I can identify where each wire came from.

This all kinda sucks because I was expecting the motor cable to fit. I had all the other wires and connectors figured out, now I have to figure out the 9 pin motor cable.
Meanwhile, I'm going keep digging away at the Das-Kit Controller to check for lettering and numbers.



PS,.. I found a temperature sensor inside a battery pack. I might stick it on my motor.

 

[Tony54]

@AHicks
Is there any kind of testing that I can do with my Das-Kit Controller to try and decipher the the wires?
I'm pretty sure it will operate if I reconnect the little yellow wire that I cut?
Or do I need an oscilloscope to do any testing?

When I start cutting wires off my Das-Kit Controller, I'll be sure to take lots of pictures first, and leave ¼" of wire on the circuit board so I can identify where each wire came from.

This all kinda sucks because I was expecting the motor cable to fit. I had all the other wires and connectors figured out, now I have to figure out the 9 pin motor cable.
Meanwhile, I'm going keep digging away at the Das-Kit Controller to check for lettering and numbers.



PS,.. I found a temperature sensor inside a battery pack. I might stick it on my motor.

View attachment 145320

Hi pcebiker,
I'm just catching up on your exploits.
It looks like you are getting into a hornets nest, but appreciate your efforts. Its looking like there isn't much commonality with the cableing between
the different ncm and KTM.

 

[PCeBiker]

Hi pcebiker,
I'm just catching up on your exploits.
It looks like you are getting into a hornets nest, but appreciate your efforts. Its looking like there isn't much commonality with the cableing between
the different ncm and KTM.

Yeah, I wasn't expecting my motor cable to not fit.
That's led to a lot more to figure out.

Turns out that Das-Kit T&F series motors are different than the NCM motors.


PS,.. I don't mind hornets at all.
I think that they are rather handsome?
This is one in my backyard last summer,..

Yellow Jackets on the other hand can be down right nasty, but I've rescues a few of them that fell into my drink.

I pulled them out, dried them off and they flew away.
They don't bug me anymore.

And then there's dragonflies.
They're just fricken Cool !!!

 

[Tony54]

I love the little creatures, always try to rescue them too.
Fortunately I have converted my decathlon hydrid bike with a bafang 500 middrive, going strong after 3 years of mainly 2 or 3 hour along the canals and minor roads in spain, so I've got plenty of go in that but the Moscow is for semi rough trails. 30 km an hour is plenty fast enough on trails but on roads painfully slow.
Good luck on your endeavors, I find it very interesting. I used to dabble with circuit boards in the past, built a radio decoder system using uarts but its not pretty resoldering on used cct boards.

 

[PCeBiker]

30 km an hour is plenty fast enough on trails but on roads painfully slow.

An American C7 Display is probably all you need?

Good luck on your endeavors, I find it very interesting. I used to dabble with circuit boards in the past, built a radio decoder system using uarts but its not pretty resoldering on used cct boards.

Thanks
It's turned into a lot more than I was expecting.
I'm hoping to do all the soldering/splicing inside the box to make it a bit cleaner looking.
Soldering/splicing 9 wires along the motor cable would make a mess.

I removed more of the potting material to see what's printed on the circuit board, so now I know my firing order.

Phase wire A

Phase wire B

And what must be phase wire C, although I can't see a label.

 

[Fred]

but the Moscow is for semi rough trails. 30 km an hour is plenty fast enough on trails but on roads painfully slow.

Something you might try. Set both Max Speed Under Throttle and Max Speed Under PAS both to 0. Yes zero! On my bike which has the smaller L7 display, it seems to unlock both - under throttle I can get to 42 Kph and in PAS 6 the same. Definitely not intuitive, but that's what it does. I doubt it will work on your display, but it's easy enough to do a simple test.

 

[Fred]

I came across this post on Facebook and thought it might be of interest for this thread. The poster successfully did this mod on a Hyper ebike, not an NCM bike. However, seems to me the technique would be more or less the same.
HOW I ADDED A THROTTLE (gives anything from 0% to 100% power to motor) TO MY HYPER MOUNTAIN BIKE ; PLUS, I GOT PEDAL ASSIST WHERE THE 1st SPEED IS SLOW (6 mph). EVERYTHING WORKS !!!
In case anyone can't access FB, I'm attaching the attachment he provided with the details.

 

[PCeBiker]

It's Working !!!

I hooked up all the wires and swapped the both pairs of blue and yellow wires, but it didn't work.
The motor just buzzed and barely moved, so I hooked up all the wires matching up all the colors, and it worked.

So now it's just a matter of installing everything and trying to make it look as clean as possible.

My 1T5 cable turned out to be about 2 feet longer than I need, and I don't know what I'm going to do with it?

I might be able to loop it back and forth inside the hollow half round down tube, but it's pretty tight in there and I don't know how tightly I can bend the cable?
The other option would be to shorten the cable and cut out the excess, but that's a PITA and I'd have to splice 9 wires back together.

 

[PCeBiker]

but the Moscow is for semi rough trails. 30 km an hour is plenty fast enough on trails but on roads painfully slow.

If you were to install a KT controller, it would not only allow you to reach the maximum speed of your ebike, but it would make your throttle work like it should.
Give a little bit of throttle, and you get a little bit of power.
Give it full throttle, and you get full power.

You will be in control of the power not the programing built into the Das-Kit controller.
The same goes for PAS modes.
 You pick the amount of power for each PAS level.

They call it "Imitation Torque Control".

It's actually just simple power control, just like a throttle on a car or motorcycle.


If your motor cable connector looks like the one on the left in this picture, then the KT motor cable will plug right into you motor.

I'm almost positive that your motor cable will look like the one on the left.
It should be the standard for NCM ebikes.

My ebike turned out to be an oddball with its bigger motor connector (connector on the right) probably due to the fact that my motor is actually a 750 Watt motor?

At least I finally got it up and running, so now I just have to complete the install.
I'm not going to hook up my PAS sensor. I'm just going to use cruise control (set by power, not speed) and pedal along when I feel like it or my bike is struggling.

 

[PCeBiker]

See if you can identify the firing order for the heavy red/green/blu wires on the original controller. It's important for a trouble free install!!! Each wire is generally identified as a, b, or c, or 1, 2, or 3 on the board right near where the wire is soldered to the board.

Counting on a color match has been pretty spotty in my experience (green to green, etc.) 50/50 at best. If you can identify the firing order on the original controller board, you can easily match that to the KT board that's always plainly marked. Holler for more help if needed AFTER you look to see how both boards are set up. If one side is marked a,b,c, and the other is 1,2,3, the "a" wire will go to "1", etc.

If the firing order the motor needs doesn't match the controller firing order, you will have the honor of trying all the various color combos until you get a match, so there's no screwing around here.....

In other words, if your green wire is going to "B" on the original controller, you want to hook that wire to the "2" or "B" on the KT board - REGARDLESS of what color wire KT is using in that position. DO NOTE what color that wire is, as you'll need that info to connect the green sensor wire!!

The sensor wires will install in the same order the big wires install.

I was thinking about how and why my Das-Kit Controller appeared to have the firing order reversed.

I found out that most rear hub motors have the motor cable coming out the right side of the motor but my Das-Kit motor has the cable on the left.

Perhaps the armature is flipped inside the motor so the firing order got reversed?

 

[AHicks]

Less thinking, more riding!

 

[PCeBiker]

Less thinking, more riding!

I think while I ride.
The roads around here are really boring.

I'm going out again today.
My battery is all charged up.

Maybe I'll crank up the power and see if I can do a wheelie or a burnout.
I gotta make it fun somehow.