What's with the recent gain in popularity with the M600 mid drive?

[rtp]

I think in terms of right to repair, we are already screwed. I have heard whispers for example that parts availability long term is unlikely for the existing mid drive market. Although... the tear-downs I have seen on the new HD and 02 replacements suggest they are mechanically identical inside. So there's an aftermarket hope.

On their attempt to take in 'tiny' market share, thats a valid point but I bet the profit they make on an EU bike from people who think ebikes should cost ten times what they sell the same part for in APAC would go a long way to floating that boat. Bafang's primary market is zillions of household utility riders who look at their bike as a simple appliance to get to work, the store etc. But in the EU thanks to prevailing higher wages, there's more money to be made per unit. Even more in the USA I think (just a guess).

Fair points.

I am seeing Bullitt owners with older Shimano drive systems that they are wearing out, and their dealers are telling them Shimano has EOL'd their now discontinued motors, so not only are replacements not available, but the new motor being sold have different mount points, so thats the end of the usefulness of the whole bike. It raises the spectre of ebikes having say an 8-10 year lifespan if a manufacturer sticks to their guns on something like this. This potential for hostage taking at best and planned obsolescence at worst is why I have not dipped so much as a big toe into the built-in motor market. I can remove a BBSHD today and put in a Cyc - or a hub (gasp!) - tomorrow and still have a bike.

Yeah, something I've thought about as well (bolded part) and one way the 'DIY conversions' at least are to a standard vs manufacturers whim.
Bafang and others could 'do the right thing' as in have new motor generations (am thinking 500/600/620 + others) at least standardize on the mounts and not change them 'randomly.' Kind of waiting to see what happens on the next round of 'updated'/new Bafang motors. Sure, suspension/brakes etc. transfer, but we're at a point where the frame/motor/battery is 1/2+ of the investment/cost.

I know I've seen a few adapters out there, although maybe not (yet?) for commercial sale, e.g. Bafang into a Shimano mount, etc. Something like that may solve some of the future annoyances to come, perhaps. (Not expecting to ever fit an Ultra into an M500/600 frame mount, but there is always the lighter, faster, 'stronger' evolution so perhaps - something. I and probably many others could eat a motor replacement, although better a repair, now and then, but if it becomes a yearly whack-a-mole with 'new' motors not bolting up, it starts to become a much more expensive and frustrating proposition.

This goes to what I said earlier about controller hacks not being the future, but controller replacements being the way we might have to go.

Going to watch right now.

 

[Jon A]

Two that I know of are American Eagle that is based in the Netherlands and is Bart Brentjens, of Olympic gold medal/Red Bull commentator fame and Forestal Bikes based in Andorra and somewhat associated with Cedric Gracia an early WC DH and Free Ride legend.

Also Elife X from Norway:

I think it's funny how every company that sells an E10-based bike claims to have taken part in the design process.... How many cooks were really in that kitchen?

 

[rtp]

Watched the video, love the comments - 'are they letting lawyers do design work?' and basically 'the only difference of note is the controller bolt pattern is now different - wtf?' (paraphrased).
Just no words on the seeming silliness involved there.

 

[rtp]

Also Elife X from Norway:

I think it's funny how every company that sells an E10-based bike claims to have taken part in the design process.... How many cooks were really in that kitchen?

+ Volition + Tosa and others. Those aren't exactly larger OEMs, they're 'assemblers' IMO and somewhat smaller companies.
But yes, kind of hysterical how many are claiming 'design work' or 'working closely with Bafang' etc. etc.
Here's one I'm convinced is offering 'upgrades' which are just dealer programming via BESST tool: (also for M500 and BBHSD..)

Electric Bike Bafang M600 EBike | Volition E performance

volitionebike.com

 

[Jon A]

So for $300 they aren't even giving you a BESST tool and the file--they're just flashing the motor for you? Good work if you can get it I guess....

 

[JRA]

Glad I got your file for free before you got any ideas Jon. Now if I could just get ahold of a Windows computer I'd actually make use of it.

 

[tomjasz]

they just don't care about 'the smaller fish'

This. The American market is still the smallest. LighteningRods/Grin here I come. Well not but only because I don’t need speed. I guess I’m just being superfluous.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

I've been meaning to chime in on this thread as I'm aware that the concerns of many have led those to question which out of the bafang M-Series motors to consider, subject to application denoted to each respective motor. In addition, the 'soon to be released' M510 motor, may also confuse those who may simply look at motor specs compared to understand which motor is designed for a particular application within the broad scope of emtb/touring/cargo/commuting etc.

I wont lie to you all, I was somewhat reluctant to mess around with either the M500 & M600. This is due to those motors supporting the Canbus protocol rather than the UART protocol. However following from my interventions for aiding and assisting in those who encountered problems (or who wanted more out of their motors), I was able to wrangle from my supplier the programming tool for the Canbus protocol.

To that end (and recognising that many in 2022 will be looking further afield for ebikes compared to their local bike shop), I have opted to prioritize in bringing about awareness on each respective M-Series bafang motor.
This includes,
M400
M500
M620
M600
M510
M800 (this will be later on in the year)
M200
M420

In addition (although I am awaiting for confirmation of this), word has reached my ears of a potential way of a convertion to swap from Canbus to uart and vise versa. If this is true and I can verify that it works (without the need of doing anything mad or beyond that which many of you would ordinarily consider), I will spread the word.

Anywho, I'm going to monitor this thread as it will allow me to answer questions (visually through my YouTube channel) and hopefully shed clarity on which motor is appropriate for which end user.

If any of you wish me to look into anything specific about the M-Series motors, don't hesitate to tag me into any post or PM me.

I'll say one thing, 2022 is going to be expensive!!! . But it's best for one person to spend, learn and pass on. Instead of everyone spending and left asking "so, what am I actually paying paying for?".

I'll keep you all posted and I'm proud to be a member of the EBR forum

 

[rtp]

I've been meaning to chime in on this thread as I'm aware that the concerns of many have led those to question which out of the bafang M-Series motors to consider, subject to application denoted to each respective motor. In addition, the 'soon to be released' M510 motor, may also confuse those who may simply look at motor specs compared to understand which motor is designed for a particular application within the broad scope of emtb/touring/cargo/commuting etc.

If any of you wish me to look into anything specific about the M-Series motors, don't hesitate to tag me into any post or PM me.

Sure, technical diagrams with wiring and part numbers or service manuals for the M600 would be great - preferably not in video form...
(I've got a partial collection of scrapings from emtb forum, ES, etc. - but Bafang sure likes to make people's lives difficult with published info...)

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Sure, technical diagrams with wiring and part numbers or service manuals for the M600 would be great - preferably not in video form...
(I've got a partial collection of scrapings from emtb forum, ES, etc. - but Bafang sure likes to make people's lives difficult with published info...)

I'll do my utmost but publications from Bafang (I.e. Bafang, not an affiliate), are somewhat notorious to obtain deep searches on the net.
But a comprehensive wiring schematic of the M600 (and other bafang motor) shouldn't be too difficult (its a good thing I know how to use Adobe illustrator ).
I'll keep you posted

 

[tomjasz]

But a comprehensive wiring schematic of the M600 (and other bafang motor) shouldn't be too difficult

That would be incredible, but when Luna the claimed biggest dealer in the USA with products direct from Bafang, buying the container load hasn't been successful...

Wonstar and their newest USA agent haven't been forthcoming. The shop I helped and is now sold, tried for years. Nada! Doug even hired a heavy hitter and Chinese-speaking consultant. NADA.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

That would be incredible, but when Luna the claimed biggest dealer in the USA with products direct from Bafang, buying the container load hasn't been successful...

Wonstar and their newest USA agent haven't been forthcoming. The shop I helped and is now sold, tried for years. Nada! Doug even hired a heavy hitter and Chinese-speaking consultant. NADA.

I see you point @tomjasz. To be fair, Luna have done very well with understanding the Bafang system (they are a credit to a lot of us Bafang fans). But I do acknowledge that a lot of third party developers who have cracked the bafang systems to create their products, must have had input from sources direct from Bafang. In addition, we must recognize that the sudden shift of Bafang using the Canbus protocol was their attempt to prevent third party developers from messing with their products (it hasn't, only delayed us ).

Nevertheless, I'll do what I can to help.

 

[tomjasz]

I see you point @tomjasz. To be fair, Luna have done very well with understanding the Bafang system (they are a credit to a lot of us Bafang fans). But I do acknowledge that a lot of third party developers who have cracked the bafang systems to create their products, must have had input from sources direct from Bafang. In addition, we must recognize that the sudden shift of Bafang using the Canbus protocol was their attempt to prevent third party developers from messing with their products (it hasn't, only delayed us ).

Nevertheless, I'll do what I can to help.

I have a far different view. Some of which comes from being on the inside in the early Luna days. Regardless of what they accomplished the critical data has NEVER been shared. Go back on ES and read the BBS02B fiasco. And they ordered by the sea container. Sorry but I'm becoming a Bafang cynic. BUT! Will always have a BBSxx series mid-drive. I love my 36V 250-500W.

At least until the dirt nap...

 

[tomjasz]

mechanically identical

So were BBSxx A and B. But parts weren't interchangeable. This is deeply disappointing to me.

 

[m@Robertson]

Watched the video, love the comments - 'are they letting lawyers do design work?' and basically 'the only difference of note is the controller bolt pattern is now different - wtf?' (paraphrased).
Just no words on the seeming silliness involved there.

Dunno if you checked but this is not his first vid on these new motors. Check out his channel.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

So this is interesting

Monte Capro Lite

Experience the perfect balance of power and agility with our Carbon Fiber Full Suspension Electric Bike. Crafted with a stiff carbon fiber frame and powered by the Bafang M600 motor, this bike delivers unparalleled performance and versatility for riders of all levels. Features: Powerful Motor...

uk.biktrix.com

So I imagine that their is a separate thread regarding the new Biktrix Monte Capro lite. However my fascination is more concerning the fact that its using the M600 motor and using the DCP18 display

Now for those of you who aren't in the know, the Bafang DCP18 remains a UART protocol display (not Canbus). Here, we can see that it has been paired to their new Monte Capro with the M600.

Now before all of you suddenly say, "it looks like a stock photo as they use that same image when depicting their ebikes with colour displays". Let's give Biktrix the benefit of doubt and presume, that it is possible to run the M600 (and indeed the M500 & M510) with the UART protocol.

I'll say this, it maybe a Dengfu E10 frame. But I'm curious to see whether Biktrix have pulled it off and found a way to do what many of us have been asking for.

 

[rtp]

So this is interesting

Monte Capro Lite

Experience the perfect balance of power and agility with our Carbon Fiber Full Suspension Electric Bike. Crafted with a stiff carbon fiber frame and powered by the Bafang M600 motor, this bike delivers unparalleled performance and versatility for riders of all levels. Features: Powerful Motor...

uk.biktrix.com

View attachment 111649
So I imagine that their is a separate thread regarding the new Biktrix Monte Capro lite. However my fascination is more concerning the fact that its using the M600 motor and using the DCP18 display
View attachment 111650View attachment 111651
Now for those of you who aren't in the know, the Bafang DCP18 remains a UART protocol display (not Canbus). Here, we can see that it has been paired to their new Monte Capro with the M600.

Now before all of you suddenly say, "it looks like a stock photo as they use that same image when depicting their ebikes with colour displays". Let's give Biktrix the benefit of doubt and presume, that it is possible to run the M600 (and indeed the M500 & M510) with the UART protocol.

I'll say this, it maybe a Dengfu E10 frame. But I'm curious to see whether Biktrix have pulled it off and found a way to do what many of us have been asking for.

Good catch, however DP C18 also comes in CAN:

零部件

Bafang description

bafang-e.com

We can all hope though. I'd take my Ludi/VESC X2 over the Monte lite as specced, but am hoping there are more options for programmability on both the M600 and Ultras going forward..

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Good catch, however DP C18 also comes in CAN:

零部件

Bafang description

bafang-e.com

We can all hope though. I'd take my Ludi/VESC X2 over the Monte lite as specced, but am hoping there are more options for programmability on both the M600 and Ultras going forward..

Well, what do you know!! You can get the DPC-18 display in Canbus.

I wonder if the 500c will be given a Canbus protocol as well?

 

[rtp]

Well, what do you know!! You can get the DPC-18 display in Canbus.

I wonder if the 500c will be given a Canbus protocol as well?

If you look at the newer Bafang displays, I'm honestly not sure what the heck they're doing. There's one that's kinda like the SW102/Eggrider in CAN, but the +/- is touchscreen. Dunno about you but the last thing I want riding off-road, or even in traffic, is 'am I pressing the right spot?'/touchscreen.

I'm kind of hoping for a separate display and control pad with a display sized roughly like 500C but sits below the bars, with a saner control pad than the DP-C240.
Meanwhile I'm just not impressed by any of their newer displays, it's more like an 'add tech' versus 'this will be better for people actually riding' etc. :-/
e.g. the below (looks 'neat' but no tactile feedback even before pressing/locating the control button, looks like another 'above the bars' display, etc..)

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Apologies for not updating this thread. I've been somewhat preoccupied with work commitments, day-to-day stuff etc.
But I'm slowly understanding this M600 motor and familiarising myself with its intricacies.

My initial impressions and experiences are mixed. I do appreciate the weight reduction compared to the M620. However, I'm somewhat reluctant to say that the M600 is a better motor overall. Perhaps upgrading the motor internally and software changes will yield different results. But it's early days so far.
I'll say this, I'm not a fan of how you activate walk mode on these newer motors. It's more of a hindrance than a practical feature in my opinion (especially compared to how Bafang implemented walk mode on their earlier motors).