What's with the recent gain in popularity with the M600 mid drive?

[tomjasz]

I wasn't going to get into that mess, but It sure is. I understand there ARE some different programs available for the 600, and a way of installing them. What I DON"T know is what rider priorities are for each of those programs. We know 10 riders, left to their own, will likely have 10 different sets of priorities (e.g. downhill, trail, commuting, riding around in a subdivision, etc.) and each of these priorities will have a different set of parameters in use/optimized for this rider. We learned that on the early M620's. The issue with loading preprogrammed packages, is rarely are the designer's priorities listed. ALL will claim to be "best". The question we're left with is, best at what?

Sooo, one of the beauties of the Uart based M620's was the fact they could be easily customized, and the rider could kind of pick and chose what he wanted to do. With the NEW M620, the ones that are now CANbus, that ability has been shut down by Bafang, supposedly in the name of warranty costs. That's the scuttlebutt anyway. I call BS on that reason..... -Al

To funny. Bafang has never honored a warranty for a reseller. I watched Doug eat every warranty claim for 6 years. Thank deity they weren’t an everyday event.

 

[rtp]

u

Having followed the M620/600 for a while, I would go M620 all day long. Especially if you want to hotrod it. Luna has had some of theirs in the X1 die on them or strip their internal gears running 2kw+ And its not a shock that this has happened. The 600 is just a smaller motor so we should expect it to like getting beat on less. Also some of the side by side reviews I have seen of the Ludi M600 vs. say a Specialized motor say the M600 is very choppy. Not smooth at all.

Ludi v1 was a shunt hack. Ludiv2 is a complete FOC VESC-BASED replacement controller. Swapping with my wife’s Bosch other than a bit sensitive on power application from a standstill, I’m not left wanting..it’s quite nice. This is not the as-comes-from-Bafang option though.

The PEEK gear is now wider and supposedly stronger as well.
I’m unsure how a stock Ultra might be reviewed by the same person but I’d expect much the same..

Once someone in the US can reliably ship Ultra FOC controllers or perhaps Innotrace will sell to the US in the future or Luna releases for the Ultra, I kind of agree - you gain a good amount of ‘abuse-abillty’ with the Ultra.

If I was Scrooge McDuck with a swimming pool full of gold coins, I would have socked away a couple-three of the original UART M620's and gotten hold of the updated settings interface with the torque control screen. But since I'm not... I'd go with a WW motor and an Archon controller.

And there's another route to look at entirely: I think Cyc has finally gotten their act together with the latest batch of X1's (there has been so much incremental improvement I don't think you can fairly call them Gen1 and Gen 2 since every month it seems something else gets improved). I would give it a few more months and I think they will incorporate into the big motor some of the neat bits they put into the smaller Stealth motor. Then you can start looking at that as a BBSHD replacement now that Bafang is busy pooping all over its DIY customer base. I have the first 'black' X1 gen1 - I didn't even bother with their controller at the time and went with a BAC800. It pumps out 4kw and the display will climb slowly to 40a before it starts cutting out which is its way of telling me to knock it off.

Note WW doesn’t even list motor/controllers for sale any longer and there’s been at least one waiting on a motor/controller for > 6 months, so … … …
The new cyc’s look neat but heavy, more suited for ‘electric motorcycles’ though, no? (versus actual workout..). The Ultras of corse, can be considered he same but can also be turned down..

 

[AHicks]

I guess that puts my theory of cargo bikes exploding chains to rest.....and am glad to do so.

IMHO, this is about choosing gears that will avoid super high chain loading - like the 11t we see often. With the big torque monsters, you just don't want to use a lot of power on them. Cruising down a hill is no issue.

 

[AHicks]

Having followed the M620/600 for a while, I would go M620 all day long. Especially if you want to hotrod it. Luna has had some of theirs in the X1 die on them or strip their internal gears running 2kw+ And its not a shock that this has happened. The 600 is just a smaller motor so we should expect it to like getting beat on less. Also some of the side by side reviews I have seen of the Ludi M600 vs. say a Specialized motor say the M600 is very choppy. Not smooth at all.

If I was Scrooge McDuck with a swimming pool full of gold coins, I would have socked away a couple-three of the original UART M620's and gotten hold of the updated settings interface with the torque control screen. But since I'm not... I'd go with a WW motor and an Archon controller.

And there's another route to look at entirely: I think Cyc has finally gotten their act together with the latest batch of X1's (there has been so much incremental improvement I don't think you can fairly call them Gen1 and Gen 2 since every month it seems something else gets improved). I would give it a few more months and I think they will incorporate into the big motor some of the neat bits they put into the smaller Stealth motor. Then you can start looking at that as a BBSHD replacement now that Bafang is busy pooping all over its DIY customer base. I have the first 'black' X1 gen1 - I didn't even bother with their controller at the time and went with a BAC800. It pumps out 4kw and the display will climb slowly to 40a before it starts cutting out which is its way of telling me to knock it off.

Been following the M620 obviously, and can't help but have an interest in the M600 and BBSHD. This "choppy" is about the damn software. If we had control of it on the level a UART based M620 has, that could EASILY be dialed out.

It will be SO COOL when they break this CANbus crap. So many of these issues will be handled easily - by comparative rookies. -Al

 

[m@Robertson]

u
Ludi v1 was a shunt hack. Ludiv2 is a complete FOC VESC-BASED replacement controller. Swapping with my wife’s Bosch other than a bit sensitive on power application from a standstill, I’m not left wanting..it’s quite nice. This is not the as-comes-from-Bafang option though.

The PEEK gear is now wider and supposedly stronger as well.
I’m unsure how a stock Ultra might be reviewed by the same person but I’d expect much the same..

Once someone in the US can reliably ship Ultra FOC controllers or perhaps Innotrace will sell to the US in the future or Luna releases for the Ultra, I kind of agree - you gain a good amount of ‘abuse-abillty’ with the Ultra.


Note WW doesn’t even list motor/controllers for sale any longer and there’s been at least one waiting on a motor/controller for > 6 months, so … … …
The new cyc’s look neat but heavy, more suited for ‘electric motorcycles’ though, no? (versus actual workout..). The Ultras of corse, can be considered he same but can also be turned down..

huh it does look as if WW is completely out of the component business. Not a shock given supply chain these days.

Yeah I'm not talking about any Ludi v2. Do they even do a v2 M600? I thought v2 was entirely BBSHD. The Luna X1 comparisons I was referring to would have all been v1. As you say v1 was the same thing people on E-S were doing, as I understand it. v2 on the other hand was a major effort with completely new hardware etc. etc.

The Cyc is not heavy. I just weighed my spare 120mm BBSHD and straight out of the box - no chainring or crankarms - its 5.85kg Cyc advertises 3.8kg for motor and controller only and 5.6kg with crankset and bottom bracket. So... no weight difference to speak of.

The negatives on the Cyc are its a noisy little bugger. I would add long term reliability but I think this is something they have finally dealt with across several parts. Mine is a v1 and still going strong but I am under no illusions. Chances are very good I have one of the sprocket wheels in the production batch that was not hardened properly, for instance.

Its also hanging off the bottom bracket so its not a built-in motor. Somehow people not looking for a motor don't see the BBSHD motor on a bike. The Cyc not so much. The new ones, again, seem to have the controller placement much better sorted. Especially with the aftermarket brackets that are spottily available. But its definitely a 'kit' look.

Bottom line for me is the BBSHD is still the best option for an add-on motor. Head and shoulders. But Bafang is actively trying to kill it off it seems. Their efforts at mainstream conformity (witness the pledge they just signed onto in the EU to prevent controller alterations) plus everything they've done over the last couple of years to their entire mid drive product line shows they are trying to exit the DIY market entirely

 

[voidedwarranty]

huh it does look as if WW is completely out of the component business. Not a shock given supply chain these days.

Yeah I'm not talking about any Ludi v2. Do they even do a v2 M600? I thought v2 was entirely BBSHD. The Luna X1 comparisons I was referring to would have all been v1. As you say v1 was the same thing people on E-S were doing, as I understand it. v2 on the other hand was a major effort with completely new hardware etc. etc.

The Cyc is not heavy. I just weighed my spare 120mm BBSHD and straight out of the box - no chainring or crankarms - its 5.85kg Cyc advertises 3.8kg for motor and controller only and 5.6kg with crankset and bottom bracket. So... no weight difference to speak of.

The negatives on the Cyc are its a noisy little bugger. I would add long term reliability but I think this is something they have finally dealt with across several parts. Mine is a v1 and still going strong but I am under no illusions. Chances are very good I have one of the sprocket wheels in the production batch that was not hardened properly, for instance.

Its also hanging off the bottom bracket so its not a built-in motor. Somehow people not looking for a motor don't see the BBSHD motor on a bike. The Cyc not so much. The new ones, again, seem to have the controller placement much better sorted. Especially with the aftermarket brackets that are spottily available. But its definitely a 'kit' look.

Bottom line for me is the BBSHD is still the best option for an add-on motor. Head and shoulders. But Bafang is actively trying to kill it off it seems. Their efforts at mainstream conformity (witness the pledge they just signed onto in the EU to prevent controller alterations) plus everything they've done over the last couple of years to their entire mid drive product line shows they are trying to exit the DIY market entirely

Yes the Luna X2 is advertised as having an M600 with v2 ludicrous

 

[m@Robertson]

Been following the M620 obviously, and can't help but have an interest in the M600 and BBSHD. This "choppy" is about the damn software. If we had control of it on the level a UART based M620 has, that could EASILY be dialed out.

It will be SO COOL when they break this CANbus crap. So many of these issues will be handled easily - by comparative rookies. -Al

Yeah but that break is not going to happen. I've played this game with the 'controllers' within cars being hot-rodded that were built by DaimlerChrysler - After CAN and a specialized hardware interface, when that gets cracked and a tool becomes available, the next counter-move is a rotating encryption key. And more. The only real solution is to completely replace the controller like Luna did and then you are back in charge.

But then they have to be put on the market. Originally, Eric @ Luna wanted the BBSHD v2 - their first it seems - to be a widespread product, openly available. From the looks of it they are keeping it in-house, likely due to supply issues but probably also a big concern is legal liability.

 

[voidedwarranty]

Yeah but that break is not going to happen. I've played this game with the 'controllers' within cars being hot-rodded that were built by DaimlerChrysler - After CAN and a specialized hardware interface, when that gets cracked and a tool becomes available, the next counter-move is a rotating encryption key. And more. The only real solution is to completely replace the controller like Luna did and then you are back in charge.

Not to go too off topic here but have you experienced such a thing as a rotating encryption key when tuning CAN cars? If the car has a software level that does not have such encryption the only way for that to be implemented would be to go back to the dealership for a new software update or an OTA update where such encryption was part of the new software. Which means if you tune the car just don't get any factory updates. OTA is really only just starting to catch on and here at BMW we are constantly fixing cars that crash during OTA updates. And BMW knows the moment we connect to vehicles if there is modified coding and flags the car for warranty purposes.

 

[rtp]

To funny. Bafang has never honored a warranty for a reseller. I watched Doug eat every warranty claim for 6 years. Thank deity they weren’t an everyday event.

What's the reasoning on this one? I know I've seen you post similar, along with Bafang making quiet/unannounced changes, and certainly lack of real/complete technical and parts breakdown info doesn't help...anyone. Do they have some large OE contracts with manufacturers they just don't care about 'the smaller fish' or ?

 

[rtp]

huh it does look as if WW is completely out of the component business. Not a shock given supply chain these days.

Yes, made worse as Innotrace does have controllers and is selling them, just not to anyone in the US. Not saying they aren't component limited as well, but I'm not seeing this exclusive as good news to anyone at the moment. Hopefully this improves at some point in 2022, although most microcontroller/electronics will still be hit during 2022 in general...

Yeah I'm not talking about any Ludi v2. Do they even do a v2 M600? I thought v2 was entirely BBSHD. The Luna X1 comparisons I was referring to would have all been v1. As you say v1 was the same thing people on E-S were doing, as I understand it. v2 on the other hand was a major effort with completely new hardware etc. etc.

Yes. Ludi V2 was done by a few guys and it's predecessor was announced on ES, and I guess the lead developer has been working with VESC since 2015 or so on various projects.
Unlike what I've been able to find for the Archon (seems it's videos and docs are offline, at least from WW now? Someone pls correct me if wrong), the docs are freely available, and it's open source. BBHSD codebase was just merged to main, M600 codebase to come..

Luna M600 Ludicrous V2 controller documentation - Electricbike.com Ebike Forum

Proud owner of the amazing M600 Ludicrous V2 controller? Here you will find all the info, software, documentation and support from the engineering team to get the best out of this extreme piece of tech. <<<< DOWNLOAD THE LATEST USER MANUAL...

electricbike.com

A pic of mine just for grins:

The Cyc is not heavy. I just weighed my spare 120mm BBSHD and straight out of the box - no chainring or crankarms - its 5.85kg Cyc advertises 3.8kg for motor and controller only and 5.6kg with crankset and bottom bracket. So... no weight difference to speak of.

The negatives on the Cyc are its a noisy little bugger. I would add long term reliability but I think this is something they have finally dealt with across several parts. Mine is a v1 and still going strong but I am under no illusions. Chances are very good I have one of the sprocket wheels in the production batch that was not hardened properly, for instance.

Its also hanging off the bottom bracket so its not a built-in motor. Somehow people not looking for a motor don't see the BBSHD motor on a bike. The Cyc not so much. The new ones, again, seem to have the controller placement much better sorted. Especially with the aftermarket brackets that are spottily available. But its definitely a 'kit' look.

Their motors are interesting. I think just by the mounting it excludes itself from being a solid eMTB contender, but if reliability is there, could be good for cargo, e-taxis, delivery vehicles, and the like - not too different than the BBHSD, or the Ultra to some extent.

Bottom line for me is the BBSHD is still the best option for an add-on motor. Head and shoulders. But Bafang is actively trying to kill it off it seems. Their efforts at mainstream conformity (witness the pledge they just signed onto in the EU to prevent controller alterations) plus everything they've done over the last couple of years to their entire mid drive product line shows they are trying to exit the DIY market entirely

Yeah, I don't quite get their strategy.
Do they have significant large OEM deals we're not aware of? I doubt it'll be with EU-spec known brands any time soon, but I guess it's possible they have some non-enthusiast OE brands in the works for cargo bikes or the like?
They should still support 'right to repair' laws and policy and make detailed part and technical information available regardless.

 

[rtp]

Yeah but that break is not going to happen. I've played this game with the 'controllers' within cars being hot-rodded that were built by DaimlerChrysler - After CAN and a specialized hardware interface, when that gets cracked and a tool becomes available, the next counter-move is a rotating encryption key. And more. The only real solution is to completely replace the controller like Luna did and then you are back in charge.

But then they have to be put on the market. Originally, Eric @ Luna wanted the BBSHD v2 - their first it seems - to be a widespread product, openly available. From the looks of it they are keeping it in-house, likely due to supply issues but probably also a big concern is legal liability.

Depends on the scale. There are already some basic CAN commands published on ES, although yeah, it's far from 'programmability' we're all wanting which an aftermarket controller uses.
At some levels it's conceivable for Bafang to simply not care... although it depends on how much they really want to emulate e.g. Bosch, with firmware detecting 'speed chips' and the like/signal alteration. An aftermarket controller remains an option until such a point as they embed the key or signature in the controller firmware, and then the 'leap-frogging' continues (e.g. someone eventually decodes or hacks their key algo, but there are enough strong open source encryption algos - that could take quite some time unless something leaks..).

God help everyone if some bonehead company assumes bikes should be able to connect to the Internet on startup (e.g. through their proprietary mobile app and your phone's data connection). Stupid idea, but so is ignoring what the purchasing public, or at least a good chunk of them, wants (tunability and parts availability and documentation).

 

[m@Robertson]

Not to go too off topic here but have you experienced such a thing as a rotating encryption key when tuning CAN cars? If the car has a software level that does not have such encryption the only way for that to be implemented would be to go back to the dealership for a new software update or an OTA update where such encryption was part of the new software. Which means if you tune the car just don't get any factory updates. OTA is really only just starting to catch on and here at BMW we are constantly fixing cars that crash during OTA updates. And BMW knows the moment we connect to vehicles if there is modified coding and flags the car for warranty purposes.

Yes its a sort of old story in the Mopar performance community and the source of a lot of grief vs. GM and Ford platforms that encourage aftermarket and leave systems open. The Mopar LX and LC platforms in particular went to a rotating encryption key in their systems in the late aughts, IIRC. I have an LX that precedes the rotating key and in addition to an engine swap I have custom tcm, pcm and ecm boxes in the car. LX is Charger/300/Magnum and LC is Challenger. LC is basically an LX that has a few inches sawed out of the middle to make it a 2-door. Same parts otherwise. This has drifted as the years have gone by but for many years the drivetrain/motor/suspension parts were entirely interchangeable. LC parts stressed for harder use (trackbars, half shafts etc.) can be retrofitted to LXs.

And you are correct the rotating key locked all software and tuning to a dealer flash... which was the whole idea behind their doing it. "Just don't get any updates" is a minefield as there have been instances where someone goes into the dealership for something unrelated and the mechs plug in anyway as part of their normal by-the-numbers service... annnnd the car is bricked. I have taken mine in and placed all sorts of service flags on it as well as taping over the receptacle with a written note.

Also of course If you touch the pcm/tcm etc. they know as soon as they connect. This includes swapping physical modules in for the service and then back out again once it comes home.

 

[m@Robertson]

God help everyone if some bonehead company assumes bikes should be able to connect to the Internet on startup (e.g. through their proprietary mobile app and your phone's data connection). Stupid idea, but so is ignoring what the purchasing public, or at least a good chunk of them, wants (tunability and parts availability and documentation).

Eggrider is already halfway there with the need to log in to initialize their display. :-( I have one - a v2 - on my Cyc mated to my (aftermarket) BAC800 and I am NOT a fan of that concept.

Bafang has already publicly pledged to join an EU-based manufacturer/industry initiative to prevent motor alterations. Hard to blame them as they are going after the mass market and USA DIY is a niche thats not even a rounding error to their bottom line. Thats why I think this is not going to go anywhere positive for the DIY community and we'll have to rely on small-volume vendors to provide solutions for those who choose to go there.

I think a more promising direction is to just let the market do its thing. We have Frey, Wattwagons and a whole slew of vendors literally ignoring the 749w limits and putting out so many ebikes that use more realistic power levels that there is no going back even now. Legislation to accept market reality will follow. Its in the interests of the politicians to do it for a variety of reasons.

 

[voidedwarranty]

Yes its a sort of old story in the Mopar performance community and the source of a lot of grief vs. GM and Ford platforms that encourage aftermarket and leave systems open. The Mopar LX and LC platforms in particular went to a rotating encryption key in their systems in the late aughts, IIRC. I have an LX that precedes the rotating key and in addition to an engine swap I have custom tcm, pcm and ecm boxes in the car. LX is Charger/300/Magnum and LC is Challenger. LC is basically an LX that has a few inches sawed out of the middle to make it a 2-door. Same parts otherwise. This has drifted as the years have gone by but for many years the drivetrain/motor/suspension parts were entirely interchangeable. LC parts stressed for harder use (trackbars, half shafts etc.) can be retrofitted to LXs.

And you are correct the rotating key locked all software and tuning to a dealer flash... which was the whole idea behind their doing it. "Just don't get any updates" is a minefield as there have been instances where someone goes into the dealership for something unrelated and the mechs plug in anyway as part of their normal by-the-numbers service... annnnd the car is bricked. I have taken mine in and placed all sorts of service flags on it as well as taping over the receptacle with a written note.

Also of course If you touch the pcm/tcm etc. they know as soon as they connect. This includes swapping physical modules in for the service and then back out again once it comes home.

Did not know that about Mopar. Very interesting. I can't say I don't always scan cars when they reach my service bay but BMW is another animal. Every BMW has fault codes stored and that all gets stored in the key fob which means BMW already knows something is up when the car is written up in the service drive before I am even given a repair order to start working on. Key read data is wild.

Sorry for the tangent everyone

 

[JLost]

Wow that's a lot of interesting reading and some new stuff to look into. Is the VESC project app the same as the speeed app on android?

 

[rtp]

Eggrider is already halfway there with the need to log in to initialize their display. :-( I have one - a v2 - on my Cyc mated to my (aftermarket) BAC800 and I am NOT a fan of that concept.

Yes, but that's a one-time registration of sorts versus needing to do as part of a 'startup sequence' etc. Can tolerate a one-time registration (Innotrace/Archon seem to require this as well), but not runtime...or of course, 'phone home' info being sent outbound.

Bafang has already publicly pledged to join an EU-based manufacturer/industry initiative to prevent motor alterations. Hard to blame them as they are going after the mass market and USA DIY is a niche thats not even a rounding error to their bottom line. Thats why I think this is not going to go anywhere positive for the DIY community and we'll have to rely on small-volume vendors to provide solutions for those who choose to go there.

Do you know of any actual EU-based OEMs adopting Bafang?

I think a more promising direction is to just let the market do its thing. We have Frey, Wattwagons and a whole slew of vendors literally ignoring the 749w limits and putting out so many ebikes that use more realistic power levels that there is no going back even now. Legislation to accept market reality will follow. Its in the interests of the politicians to do it for a variety of reasons.

Sure, the problem there in reality is the timeliness of it all. EU has been stuck in middle-ages power and speed restrictions, and not like US politicians in general are 'smart' or know what they're talking about when it comes to tech (Net Neutrality, just so soooo many things). I'm expecting a long 'limbo time' if e.g. Bafang doesn't consider other consumer/market wants while wanting to become 'baby Bosch' - we're ok as long as aftermarket controllers will work, but look at Bafang's 'systems' where they're obviously trying to supply everything including the battery - it wouldn't be a leap for them to lock out aftermarket controllers. Hope it doesn't happen, but - it could.

 

[m@Robertson]

Yes, but that's a one-time registration of sorts versus needing to do as part of a 'startup sequence' etc. Can tolerate a one-time registration (Innotrace/Archon seem to require this as well), but not runtime...or of course, 'phone home' info being sent outbound.

Do you know of any actual EU-based OEMs adopting Bafang?

Yeah but if ER has a one-time phone based registration app, that bluetooth-links to the display to enable it, those are all the puzzle pieces necessary to misuse into your worst fears. Frankly I would not be even the least bit surprised if a major manufacturer already has this in place under the radar. Doesn't Specialized already provide Strava-like functionality?

I know of no EU partners as of yet but you can bet they are coming. Over on the home page of Bike Europe today, two of the three top highlighted job openings are Bafang - One in Italy and one in Denmark. Both are After Sales Service Techs. Ever since the EU tariffs went into effect Bafang has been not-so-quietly setting up EU-native infrastructure that makes them a domestic manufacturer within the EU. And don't forget their position in the Far East market means they are the leader in a market that is an order of magnitude larger than the rest of the world combined. Bafang is not aspiring to be a mini-Bosch. Bosch just has all the eyeballs in a small marketplace that is much more visible to us Westerners.

Even so... in 2019 Bafang had already captured 16% of the EU market. I hadn't realized they had come so far by that time.

None of this action on the part of Bafang is good for consumers, as you noted.

ExtraEnergy maps the market share of the e-Bike Biz

A map of the current market share of the e-Bike Biz has been developed by ExtraEnergy, who have carried out a trio of surveys.

cyclingindustry.news

This chart is out of date, but even if there are big shifts... they won't be big enough to change the story much. Image stolen from this very old article.

 

[rtp]

Yeah but if ER has a one-time phone based registration app, that bluetooth-links to the display to enable it, those are all the puzzle pieces necessary to misuse into your worst fears. Frankly I would not be even the least bit surprised if a major manufacturer already has this in place under the radar. Doesn't Specialized already provide Strava-like functionality?

RE: Specialized, probably - but GDPR/consumer data protection rights are pretty strong in the EU. I'm sadly well aware of the ways companies will try to steal and abuse (right words for it IMO) all kinds of data they aren't entitled to, from unenforceable EULAs, social media, even Android (to keep up with Facebook in ad targeting space..), Microsoft, Dell/EMC, Lenovo 'phone home' apps over the years, etc.

I guess when it comes to ebikes, I have more concern over them disabling our ability to repair and adjust as there would be an uproar if they went the way of e.g. 'active near-real-time' tracking (of bikes, users, data, ...), but may need to think on it a bit, as where $ is involved, there are seemingly never-ending ways of abuse.

That chart is telling. Great link and chart, although I'm wondering on any 'interpretation' done in market studies in general. So yeah, it's entirely possible there are entire 'fleets' of Bafang-powered ebikes out there <somewhere in APAC> we just don't have visibility into, although if the chart is at all accurate, would make you wonder why they're looking to make inroads into the EU honestly.. ? 16% of <tiny percentage> is still, well - relatively small, even if larger than the NA market as represented in the chart.

I suspect it will be an interesting up coming 5-10 years, as it usually is in newer but growing markets. Both from the standpoint of what Bafang does, but also EU regulation and 'the usual players,' as well as if anyone else of note/size enters the market to 'fill in the gaps.' Would be interesting if EU raised their limits and years from now Yamaha, Brose or <??> actually offered what we've been looking for in Bafang to now. At least they're going down the road of more user-configuration anyways, so - we'll see.

I know of no EU partners as of yet but you can bet they are coming. Over on the home page of Bike Europe today, two of the three top highlighted job openings are Bafang - One in Italy and one in Denmark. Both are After Sales Service Techs. Ever since the EU tariffs went into effect Bafang has been not-so-quietly setting up EU-native infrastructure that makes them a domestic manufacturer within the EU. And don't forget their position in the Far East market means they are the leader in a market that is an order of magnitude larger than the rest of the world combined. Bafang is not aspiring to be a mini-Bosch. Bosch just has all the eyeballs in a small marketplace that is much more visible to us Westerners.

Even so... in 2019 Bafang had already captured 16% of the EU market. I hadn't realized they had come so far by that time.

None of this action on the part of Bafang is good for consumers, as you noted.

ExtraEnergy maps the market share of the e-Bike Biz

A map of the current market share of the e-Bike Biz has been developed by ExtraEnergy, who have carried out a trio of surveys.

cyclingindustry.news

This chart is out of date, but even if there are big shifts... they won't be big enough to change the story much. Image stolen from this very old article.

View attachment 110981

 

[JRA]

"Do you know of any actual EU-based OEMs adopting Bafang?"

Two that I know of are American Eagle that is based in the Netherlands and is Bart Brentjens, of Olympic gold medal/Red Bull commentator fame and Forestal Bikes based in Andorra and somewhat associated with Cedric Gracia an early WC DH and Free Ride legend.

In fact on the American Eagle jersey worn at WC XCO, and I am sure other, races by his squad Bafang is listed on their jersey's even though they aren't eBikes. However they do have a rider on the e circuit that does well also. It is a M500/600 based FS.

Forestal has an interesting long travel/lightish weight (due to a small battery and custom Bafang motor I believe that is based off the M800) that they are starting to finally ship. It is a good looking bike with good reviews to date from those that have ridden it. Close competition to the Kenevo SL I think?

I think that sales of hub motor type bikes, which are Bafangs bread and butter, far outweigh in all regions mid drive sales. That is the market I believe Bafang is after.

 

[m@Robertson]

That chart is telling. Great link and chart, although I'm wondering on any 'interpretation' done in market studies in general. So yeah, it's entirely possible there are entire 'fleets' of Bafang-powered ebikes out there <somewhere in APAC> we just don't have visibility into, although if the chart is at all accurate, would make you wonder why they're looking to make inroads into the EU honestly.. ? 16% of <tiny percentage> is still, well - relatively small, even if larger than the NA market as represented in the chart.

I suspect it will be an interesting up coming 5-10 years, as it usually is in newer but growing markets. Both from the standpoint of what Bafang does, but also EU regulation and 'the usual players,' as well as if anyone else of note/size enters the market to 'fill in the gaps.' Would be interesting if EU raised their limits and years from now Yamaha, Brose or <??> actually offered what we've been looking for in Bafang to now. At least they're going down the road of more user-configuration anyways, so - we'll see.

I think in terms of right to repair, we are already screwed. I have heard whispers for example that parts availability long term is unlikely for the existing mid drive market. Although... the tear-downs I have seen on the new HD and 02 replacements suggest they are mechanically identical inside. So there's an aftermarket hope.

On their attempt to take in 'tiny' market share, thats a valid point but I bet the profit they make on an EU bike from people who think ebikes should cost ten times what they sell the same part for in APAC would go a long way to floating that boat. Bafang's primary market is zillions of household utility riders who look at their bike as a simple appliance to get to work, the store etc. But in the EU thanks to prevailing higher wages, there's more money to be made per unit. Even more in the USA I think (just a guess).

I am seeing Bullitt owners with older Shimano drive systems that they are wearing out, and their dealers are telling them Shimano has EOL'd their now discontinued motors, so not only are replacements not available, but the new motor being sold have different mount points, so thats the end of the usefulness of the whole bike. It raises the spectre of ebikes having say an 8-10 year lifespan if a manufacturer sticks to their guns on something like this. This potential for hostage taking at best and planned obsolescence at worst is why I have not dipped so much as a big toe into the built-in motor market. I can remove a BBSHD today and put in a Cyc - or a hub (gasp!) - tomorrow and still have a bike.

This goes to what I said earlier about controller hacks not being the future, but controller replacements being the way we might have to go.