Watt Wagons Critical Product Availability Status

[Zachdds]

Tostring, I am not sure there are always tracking numbers. Your motor came in the fall. Wooks bike went into paint twice. Hell, even my Helios frame was “shipped” until it didn’t exist.


Have to wonder if the updates are worse then the news. I am sure ww monitors these forums. Even when they aren’t online they have to be getting emails that there is a new post. For the life of me I cannot figure out why they would want to head down this path illustrating their poor customer service over and over and over. Wooks posted days ago. A quick email or phone call would help prevent the backlash that always comes. Unless of course the truth is worse then the silence. Maybe they only need to sell 2 more bikes and then the motors will be ordered. Who knows but without the updates people are left to wonder.

 

[JRA]

It will be interesting to track their supply issues. I know that they restocked the x1 numerous times in the last 12 months.

Huh, not my take on that as I have been monitoring them for the last two years since I passed, luckily mostly, on the X1's when they were first listed for like $3250 and haven't seen them since? In fact emailed them several times to see if they had a timeline as long as they were tying up access to the frames and the boys across the pond were happily building away.

 

[TomD]

For sure Luna restocked the X1 multiple times last year. There's even a July blog post mentioning the galaxy paint X1 in stock with the matte version restocking later in the summer.

New Galaxy Paint On the Luna X1 Enduro

The new 2021 X1s are about ready for shipping and they now come standard with the Galaxy paint , which is a custom color that looks glossy black in the shade and glistens like a star lit night in the Sun Shine. We will have the older matte colored X1s in stock at some point this summer. Add your...

lunacycle.com

 

[TomD]

Also, pretty sure Luna bought out a significant amount of Dengfu's manufacturing capacity. I think that's the other reason why reason Pushkar is looking elsewhere to manufacture Helios and Hydra v2 frames (assuming they ever happen), in addition to the IP issues that arose with Dengfu and the Hydra frames.

 

[loamoaf]

I guess more what I'm getting at is if there are other companies working on upgraded controller solutions for these motors, that winds up with more competition for WW's North American Archon/Innotrace X1 exclusivity and kind of kills a big advantage WW currently has over other options. If the end result of the product is similar enough then it comes down to who has the better customer service & sales support (and stock) - which currently the bar is set incredibly low for. I simply used the Luna solution as it seems they're specifically vying for the Hydra's spot in the marketplace what with the near-identical frame & FOC.

Like Zach, I too was excited to learn about WW & the Archon/Innotrace motor, I liked what WW was doing and I thought that the media supporting the product was encouraging (basic programming setup video, Q&A, what I thought was regular activity in forums) - and I too was an advocate for them when asked for suggestions on 'the best' emtbs. I was pretty excited to link to their site and share what I had found. I wanted to order a Hydra frame along with my motor but I was trying to stick to a budget, and I was unsure if the Hydra fat frame had clearance for the tires I'll be running (it doesn't, sadly). But a few months ago I fell silent and learned not to hype anything I don't have in my hands. I could no longer be an advocate for them as Zach mentioned - though I wouldn't disparage them to people looking I did try to temper expectations with shipping times so they could avoid the same fate as me: getting overly excited then just feeling left in a rut.

I'm just hoping I don't regret my purchase in a year or 18 months if there will be multiple other FOCs out there at competitive price points with good CS behind them. Again as Zach mentioned ordering single unit motors seems to be absolutly no issue but apparently it's nearly impossible to procure a bulk order as a valuable B2B client? Doing the math on per unit cost shipped for 50+ motors, the markup for the Archon X1 is about double what Innotrace charges EU customers including the 20% EU VAT that North American customers aren't subject to. To justify that mark up I would expect a little better customer service and transparency (and effort towards securing motors).

I know there's been a great deal of BS surrounding the frames and painting of them in the past year(s), and great difficulty procuring other bike parts (delays I experienced myself but were only ever significant when placing a custom order) - but in the case of the motors this is an exceptionally frustrating point just because I have first hand experience as getting one and was incredibly surprised at how little effort and time it took, and my repeated requests to have a motor directly shipped to them were ignored. I'd just like for the extra expense to be justified so I can rest easy with my purchase. How much longer will the can be kicked down the road?

 

[WaxedWookie]

All,
Here is a quick status that most everyone shoudl see a formal update on this week.

Assembled waiting for motors: Motors showing ETA of Dec 4th. Hope to get these ready to ship by mid next week.

@pushkar, this was 2+ weeks ago.
Am I correct in thinking that there was no update (I didn't see one), and the bikes haven't shipped?

Where are our bikes, what's the hold up this time, and why do we need to keep chasing you like this for the scarcest details after you break yet more comments?

I was asked to pay $460 by Amit to avoid further delays nearly 2 months ago, and he's ignored me since I paid. You've ignored us other than giving timeliness that have proved meaningless.

 

[loamoaf]

I was asked to pay $460 by Amit to avoid further delays nearly 2 months ago, and he's ignored me since I paid.

What. Is this in addition to the already agreed upon price you paid?

 

[WaxedWookie]

What. Is this in addition to the already agreed upon price you paid?

Yes - to be clear, it was for a suspension upgrade due to a parts shortage, which I was led to believe was the current hold-up. I was asked to pay for the upgrade to avoid further delay. I paid after being told the bike would otherwise ship in 2 weeks... 2 weeks after the previous committed ship date... 2 months ago.

I'll likely post the entirety of that ticket thread this week along with a timeline of my experience with Watt Wagons soon. If I'd known the level of communication I'd experience from Watt Wagons, I never would have trusted them with my money. Sharing the facts will allow people to make a more informed choice and hopefully not unwittingly repeat my mistake.

 

[loamoaf]

That's a relief. You really had me going there for a moment... So I got off the phone with Pushkar, he said he's trying to figure out a way to keep on top of order status while managing the volume of orders and the trickle of parts coming in. I suggested a check list on the shop floor as that gets worked on, and EOD update an internal spreadsheet of current orders. Just a few fields like frame, motor, assembly to keep it from becoming too much of a burden. Simple color-coded statuses easy to read at a glance, 'not started', 'started not complete' (this should only be applicable for a stage that can't be completed before EOD), 'complete', or 'delayed' - perhaps a status specifically for frame painting 'sent for painting' or 'returned from painting'. If a field gets updated, then an automatic email goes out to the email attached to the order "order #1234 frame status updated sent for painting" and a landing page where users could enter their order number and email address to see the status of their order as Team WW would see it on their internal sheet.

Dates can be attached to fields so if there is a delay on parts or the frame is off for painting, and they have an expected return date, they can attach the date to that status field and if the date passes without them updating that field, it will highlight it for them in a different color so that they know that the last ETA that customer was given has passed and they have not yet been updated. Something like the attached sheet on their end. The shop floor check list could be a more granular, simple paper & pencil check list for assembly so if assembly is started but incomplete, they can know at a glance what stage the assembly is on. This checklist could be visible to the customer when they look up their order as just a checklist with red or green boxes. Since most orders arrive in bulk (I would assume they are also going directly through QBP or other distributors for components) they could have the order status check landing page have important announcements in there. An example of this is if they are awaiting a critical component, show the cutoff order # for current outstanding orders that are covered by remaining stock & ETA - "Awaiting controllers, orders <#1234 are covered by current stock, next batch ETA 12/12"

Updating the important announcements would be again an EOD task for a crew member along with the order stasuses, more than likely not something that would need to be done daily, but as orders arrive or dates pass. This may be debatable but a log of the previous update would also be helpful for customers to see what changed and to show that WW is staying on top of regular updates.

WW view of order tracker @pushkar for visibility

Possible detail assembly checklist for customer's order lookup - this may be more than necessary but follows the spirit of what you'd see on the shop floor check list. Different rows just show different examples, whatever is written in the field for IN PROGRESS items is what is slated to be worked on next or is currently being worked on. A more easily manageable way to convery this information is just to have whoever does the EOD updates look at the shop floor checklist for the bike and add a short note of it's current state. Any delays or the overall stage of the bike would be conveyed from the above sheet, so notes would really only need "brake bleed, QA next" or "drive train alignment, brake bleed next" - in the event of something being delayed just note the next step the bike will go to once the delay is cleared "shock delay ETA 12/20, chain install/drivetrain adjustment next" (some things cannot be completed until others, which is where displaying a full check list to the customer can help convey that even though the bike is waiting on the shock for chain length & drivetrain adjustment, brakes are have already been installed and bled)

Also it seems that controllers are what they're waiting on, not motors. When I get back after this weekend from travelling I'm just going to mount my backup M620 and go riding while I bide my time, this is no way to burn calories. Felt good to vent though!

 

[WaxedWookie]

So if I understand correctly, this isn't just a supply chain + communication issue - it's also a production management issue? When we throw the fit and finish issues into the mix, can we say that there's anything (other than taking payment) Watt Wagons are doing well?

Are we really dealing with the level of incompetence where we need to provide instruction on how to pull together a simple spreadsheet-based order tracker?

What a shitshow.

@pushkar, if @loamoaf's help isn't enough, I'm willing to put in the time to build a publicly shared tracker/inventory management sheetfor you. There will still be work for you to populate it, but there's only so much of your job we can do for you.

 

[TomD]

Yeah, I don't get it, some pretty huge red flags here. I'm still holding out for Helios 2.0 but not sure how much longer.

 

[Acme]

So if I understand correctly, this isn't just a supply chain + communication issue - it's also a production management issue? When we throw the fit and finish issues into the mix, can we say that there's anything (other than taking payment) Watt Wagons are doing well?

Are we really dealing with the level of incompetence where we need to provide instruction on how to pull together a simple spreadsheet-based order tracker?

What a shitshow.

@pushkar, if @loamoaf's help isn't enough, I'm willing to put in the time to build a publicly shared tracker/inventory management sheetfor you. There will still be work for you to populate it, but there's only so much of your job we can do for you.

I’m thoroughly confused, you call his business as s*it show, level of incompetence etc. and then you throw in offer of help.?? Of course friend, come on over, give me a hand you sound like a reasonable guy I want to be involved with. WTF

 

[WaxedWookie]

I’m thoroughly confused, you call his business as s*it show, level of incompetence etc. and then you throw in offer of help.?? Of course friend, come on over, give me a hand you sound like a reasonable guy I want to be involved with. WTF

I think it's abundantly clear why I think it's a shitshow, and while I think we shouldn't need to help, I'm making the offer knowing that it might help get the bikes moving while giving us all the transparency we've been asking for.

I'm trying to contribute to a solution where I can.

Frankly, it would be preferable if Pushkar could manage it himself, so it's no skin off my nose if he declines the offer, but either way, I'll continue to expect the updates and bike I'm owed.

If you think that's unreasonable, so be it - I'd say the same of your continued approval of Watt Wagons while failing to acknowledge their business practices.

 

[loamoaf]

Shitshow may be mildly hyperbolic but I would say there's definitely the glaring issue of having a system to make order status more transparent so that people wouldn't need to contact a person at WW to check the status of an order - and the more obvious being able to give reasonable and accurate time frames. Managing stock and inventory to keep delivery times reasonable can be done by having orders be placed via a deposit system to reserve a ticket number, then when that ticket number's time comes a new order can be placed with a much more accurate & reasonable lead time given. 1UP USA did this when I was ordering a hitch rack but without a deposit - I signed up for a wait list with what I wanted to order selected (this is part is important so that they can know what incoming orders to expect), then within that estimate window they gave me I got an email with a link to place an order that had a 2-3 week estimated time to delivery. This doesn't really help those of us with currently outstanding orders though. Waltworks' waitlist page is a very simpliefied version of an order status page as described in my previous comment

To be honest the tracking feature is is probably a little more in depth than what you would expect the average bike or ebike place, and to be fair Luna & many others don't have it either as far as I know. Seems like Luna's solution is to offer 1 configuration and you have to catch the page when when the bike is in stock if you want to be able to place an order - but the lack of or sporadic communication & repeatedly pushed dates without proactively notifying customers who's orders are affected isn't something you'd expect. Gating orders the way Luna does can make inventory management super easy if it works like there are 100 slots open with a whatever lead time for that 'block' of orders, and the page goes out of stock once 100 units are ordered and that block is filled. Limited availablility and smaller order blocks I imagine would be how they can arrange for a delivery window that covers a wide enough span so that they don't have to order parts for the entire block of orders until it's full or almost full - but this is on the assumption that they don't have the capital to just maintain stock ready to ship and only have frames on hand, it may very well be that they only list bikes as in stock when they have them in hand and ready to roll out.

My main concern in all this (in how it affects my current outstanding order, and less about general QoS for customers) is the discrepency between motor & controller. I think the last thing I saw said motors were expected 10/30 & there were enough controllers to cover orders made before 9/1 - which would have covered mine, leading me to believe the component many of us waiting on were the Bafang motors. In the call I was told Innotrace was only recently able to secure more of the TI chips they need to make more controllers, and mid January is when they expect to have a shipment and be able to get installing controllers on motors. I'm just going to put on my tinfoil hat and chalk it up to the police department wanting their bikes ASAP, the bell tolled for the controller slated for my order, and there's nothing more I can do about it unless I want to get beat unconscious with phone books. It's the only way I can wrap my head around it.

 

[greeno]

Spreadsheets/flowcharts are good to have for a quick reference on status but you guys know that's not the issue. Seems like he's working off of that old tried and true business model......send more $.

After Luna kinda fell on their face with service and having positive customer interaction a few years ago WW came in at a good point in time to capture a market share of people wanting a good product AND receiving better service. Starting a business deep in debt is IMO not a smart way to build your market share. Big risk, big reward I know I know learned that back in college business classes. Amazon, Tesla are still waiting to turn a profit but their pockets are kinda deep so there's that.

Probably one of the worst times in history to be a start-up with all the shipping logistical problems and parts sourcing. All the while promising a certain product configuration and then having to substitute a suitable replacement for more/less $. To keep costs manageable you need to buy in bulk or futures whichever you prefer to use and that will set you back quickly and the only solution to raise the capital is to sell ownership %, Borrow cash, or somehow rob Peter to pay Paul.
Once that starts to happen it never ends well. I have known companies that followed this pattern of conducting their business and their long gone now.

Once the music stops somebody stated earlier that they hope they get a seat, it looks to me like there won't be any chairs left.


You guys take my ramblings with a grain of salt. I have no dog in this fight or anything outstanding concerning WW. Hell I didn't even buy a bike from them just a frame they used to carry and of course the motor with upgraded controller. But guys getting strung along with incorrect info about the status of their orders really rubs me the wrong way when it's so easy to correct.
I am in no way affiliated with the boys up in El Sagundo. But I do know guys that know certain people in this industry and the name of WW has come up. So it's not just us taking note.

 

[WaxedWookie]

Shitshow may be mildly hyperbolic but I would say there's definitely the glaring issue of having a system to make order status more transparent so that people wouldn't need to contact a person at WW to check the status of an order - and the more obvious being able to give reasonable and accurate time frames.

I respectfully disagree that "shitshow" was hyperbolic knowing the number of delays we've encountered without explanation, knowing that @pushkar is actively ignoring us here while responding to other threads, knowing that I haven't had a response to my ticket requesting an update in almost 2 months (when Amit surfaced to take more of my money to avoid further delays), and now based on your post, it appears even Pushkar can't even keep track of our orders internally.

If Pushkar or Amit could be bothered to give updates and explanations on our orders, the delays wouldn't be that big a deal to me. Instead, we're left to speculate whether the delays are the motors, controllers, staffing, or solvency as we're treated with contempt by a company that owed us bikes or explanations months ago.

Where are our bikes Pushkar?

 

[Akview]

I will add this: I too am not pleased with the lack of communication from WW. I ordered a frame. Frame only. Just a frame. Updated shipping estimates keep getting extended. No reply to any communication attempts.
I will be surprised if I ever see the frame or my money back.

 

[WaxedWookie]

I ordered a frame.

Well that rules out motor and controller issues - was it painted (there was previously issues there), and what was your order number/date if you don't mind me asking?

 

[Zachdds]

Monitoring inventory is not the problem. Did you not see the last update. Their was literally 10 bikes being built. He knows exactly what he is waiting for. Motors, paint, controllers, frames, all that is bullshit. He is waiting on money. He can’t be honest with you for fear you will back out. Then you get in line behind the founders or maybe in front who knows, but the money isn’t there for refunds and in my opinion it isn’t there to finish bikes. So what does ww do? They give you just enough hope to string you along and they hope that they can keep a float until more orders come in.

They pulled that on the founders forum for close to 2 years. Same s*it different day. Just like everyone on here we implored them for updates and transparency. The updates were few and far between and in the end they were not true.

Example from 3 weeks ago.

Motors will hopefully be here 12/4, last piece. No update no nothing, nada. Date comes and goes. People start to get restless, now it is controller, let’s push it out a ways so we don’t have to hear from anyone. How does end of January sound? Does anyone actually believe that 2 weeks ago he was waiting on motors? Do you believe that there was a tracking number for 12/4? Now it is controllers? Told to you by another buyer, not the company. Does anyone believe that?

I do not know if it is musical chairs or the dance band playing on the titanic. Either way I hear some music playing.

 

[WaxedWookie]

I just got an email from @pushkar saying my bike will be ready to ship this week... Here's hoping.