TQ motor

[WillShootPhotos]

I only wonder if in the search of "the latest and greatest" we forget we have already got the greatest.
Connectivity of the TQ: Any information?
Reliability of the TQ: Any hard data?

Oh - on connectivity - someone already posted the connection page from the manual. I've yet to pair mine as I might only be interested in seeing the % battery remaining. I already get cadence and power from a set of Garmin power pedals.

I did read a FAQ that indicated that while the "power" number is broadcast, that it shouldn't be used as a "training" power for any sort of workouts, but it is more of a general number; they suggest using a different (pedal) power reading system to get accurate input from the rider numbers.

- Will

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Oh - on connectivity - someone already posted the connection page from the manual. I've yet to pair mine as I might only be interested in seeing the % battery remaining. I already get cadence and power from a set of Garmin power pedals.

The cruising speed (hence, the distance ridden), rider's cadence & power as well as battery % remaining should be available from the e-bike's sensors via LEV ANT+, as all the information is used by the mid-drive motor. I gladly hope that's the case with the TQ system.

I did read a FAQ that indicated that while the "power" number is broadcast, that it shouldn't be used as a "training" power for any sort of workouts, but it is more of a general number; they suggest using a different (pedal) power reading system to get accurate input from the rider numbers.

That is true but the cadence and rider's power are used by the mid-drive motor to calculate the assistance delivered by the motor, however the measured information inaccurate might be

 

[Stefan Mikes]

The TREK has 3 modes, of which I've monkeyed with the "eco" or first mode only. It has 3 parameters that you can adjust: Max Power, Assist, and Pedal Response. Max Power is how much (at most) the motor will assist, the Assist is the % of input power that the motor will provide (up to the max power); and Pedal Response is how emphatically (ramps in slowly, or full welly from the off) the power is engaged once the system gets some input that merits some power out.

Thank you for the excellent information!

 

[Captain Slow]

Some fair questions - they crossed my mind before I plunked down my $$ for a TREK Domane+ SLR7 with the 2x Ultegra Di2 spec. The company - while new to the e-bike motor space (yes, some puns intended as their motors have been in space) - isn't new to motors in general: industrial robots, space, etc.

I don't think they're that new to ebike motors. The TQ120 has been around for a while, though admittedly, not widely used. But this article suggests they've been in the ebike motor game since 2012. I think the TQ120 was available sometime around 2015 or 2016, but I can't quite remember. This article is from 2020 and talks about it, but I believe it was available for a few years before this article.

https://ebike-mtb.com/en/tq-hpr-120s-2020-review/

 

[WillShootPhotos]

The cruising speed (hence, the distance ridden), rider's cadence & power as well as battery % remaining should be available from the e-bike's sensors via LEV ANT+, as all the information is used by the mid-drive motor. I gladly hope that's the case with the TQ system.

Only three (see the page from the TREK manual that someone posted in the thread) are currently broadcast: Cadence, Power and % Batt Remaining. I understand why they wouldn't send speed, since you've a cycling computer that's (most likely) GPS based, you would already have that...

 

[Calcoaster]

Only three (see the page from the TREK manual that someone posted in the thread) are currently broadcast: Cadence, Power and % Batt Remaining. I understand why they wouldn't send speed, since you've a cycling computer that's (most likely) GPS based, you would already have that...

Is there a provision within the trek app to send yourself (or download) a csv file? Mission Control has that option and I can use a free csv file converter to see motor power and other data that the MC app itself doesn’t show.

 

[WillShootPhotos]

Is there a provision within the trek app to send yourself (or download) a csv file? Mission Control has that option and I can use a free csv file converter to see motor power and other data that the MC app itself doesn’t show.

Since I use a Garmin on my bike, I've yet to try (or, candidly, even think about) using the "TREK Central" app to track a ride. Since I've been riding home roads with my Domane+ SLR7, I've not used the route range and other features of the app. I have heard that some like the TQ app better than the TREK one, but I'm not sure why.

Guess I've a few more things to play with on my next frew rides!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Only three (see the page from the TREK manual that someone posted in the thread) are currently broadcast: Cadence, Power and % Batt Remaining. I understand why they wouldn't send speed, since you've a cycling computer that's (most likely) GPS based, you would already have that...

Specialized and Giant e-bikes send the RPM from the speed sensor to bike computers such as Garmin or Wahoo via ANT+. You specify the Wheel Circumference for the bike GPS computer. As long as the e-bike is on, the speed (and hence, the distance) are derived from the e-bike. If the e-bike is off (or otherwise cannot send the speed info), the bike computer takes the speed and distance from the GPS.

I made sure about that the hard way. When my latest Wahoo ELEMNT, the Roam v2 was new in the market, it had issues with getting the GPS fix quickly after powering it on. It took the computer as many as 3-4 minutes to get the fix! (Now, it has been corrected by software updates). I could ride for 1 km without the GPS fix, and the speed and distance were recorded by Wahoo from the first second. Later, Strava reported the distance ridden by some 1 km shorter as Strava only takes the GPS track as the data source; the distance and average speed in Wahoo were correct.

My brother rides a Giant e-bike using a Garmin Edge and he is positive the LEV ANT+ speed and distance are derived from the rear wheel RPM there, too. Each of us had spent some time to determine the rear wheel actual circumference to get a perfect match with the GPS (we are changing tyres for winter, and winter tyres have a different circumference).

LEV ANT+ transmits the e-bike battery charge level, the Assistance Mode name, and even the Battery Range remaining (for e-bikes that can calculate that parameter).

 

[WillShootPhotos]

Specialized and Giant e-bikes send the RPM from the speed sensor to bike computers such as Garmin or Wahoo via ANT+. You specify the Wheel Circumference for the bike GPS computer. As long as the e-bike is on, the speed (and hence, the distance) are derived from the e-bike. If the e-bike is off (or otherwise cannot send the speed info), the bike computer takes the speed and distance from the GPS.

I made sure about that the hard way. When my latest Wahoo ELEMNT, the Roam v2 was new in the market, it had issues with getting the GPS fix quickly after powering it on. It took the computer as many as 3-4 minutes to get the fix! (Now, it has been corrected by software updates). I could ride for 1 km without the GPS fix, and the speed and distance were recorded by Wahoo from the first second. Later, Strava reported the distance ridden by some 1 km shorter as Strava only takes the GPS track as the data source; the distance and average speed in Wahoo were correct.

My brother rides a Giant e-bike using a Garmin Edge and he is positive the LEV ANT+ speed and distance are derived from the rear wheel RPM there, too. Each of us had spent some time to determine the rear wheel actual circumference to get a perfect match with the GPS (we are changing tyres for winter, and winter tyres have a different circumference).

LEV ANT+ transmits the e-bike battery charge level, the Assistance Mode name, and even the Battery Range remaining (for e-bikes that can calculate that parameter).

For clarity - my post is only about the TREK Domane+ SLR... YMMV for other manufacturers that utilize the TQ motor.

 

[WillShootPhotos]

Specialized and Giant e-bikes send the RPM from the speed sensor to bike computers such as Garmin or Wahoo via ANT+. You specify the Wheel Circumference for the bike GPS computer. As long as the e-bike is on, the speed (and hence, the distance) are derived from the e-bike. If the e-bike is off (or otherwise cannot send the speed info), the bike computer takes the speed and distance from the GPS.

I made sure about that the hard way. When my latest Wahoo ELEMNT, the Roam v2 was new in the market, it had issues with getting the GPS fix quickly after powering it on. It took the computer as many as 3-4 minutes to get the fix! (Now, it has been corrected by software updates). I could ride for 1 km without the GPS fix, and the speed and distance were recorded by Wahoo from the first second. Later, Strava reported the distance ridden by some 1 km shorter as Strava only takes the GPS track as the data source; the distance and average speed in Wahoo were correct.

My brother rides a Giant e-bike using a Garmin Edge and he is positive the LEV ANT+ speed and distance are derived from the rear wheel RPM there, too. Each of us had spent some time to determine the rear wheel actual circumference to get a perfect match with the GPS (we are changing tyres for winter, and winter tyres have a different circumference).

LEV ANT+ transmits the e-bike battery charge level, the Assistance Mode name, and even the Battery Range remaining (for e-bikes that can calculate that parameter).

Not sure how to tap into the raw feed coming out of the TQ head unit, but I did record a ride using the TREK app and sent the GPX file to myself and crawled around it a bit.

Each data node looks like this: (curious to see if this site supports posting of code blocks )

    <trkpt lat="36.113029" lon="-115.314766">
        <ele>874.608826</ele>
        <time>2023-07-07T17:09:38Z</time>
        <extensions>
        <distance>21458.138701</distance>
        <speed>9.972222</speed>
        <course>359</course>
        <acceleration>0.298211</acceleration>
        <calories>0.219476</calories>
        <speed_from_sensor>true</speed_from_sensor>
        <cadence>91</cadence>
        <ebike_mode>2</ebike_mode>
        <ebike_battery>80</ebike_battery>
        <power>236.000000</power>
        <motor_power>150</motor_power>
        </extensions>
    </trkpt>

Looks like I was in the middle power mode, max output is 150W (so that's pegged) for how I have mid mode setup, I'm putting 236W in, think I may have been starting back up from a traffic light... So you can get some of the nitty gritty out of the GPX file if you write your own parser.

It looks like there is an undocumented additional "pairing" that the TQ unit supports with (at least) the Garmin head units - "eBike" as a single parameter. The documentation says you can pair individual values for Power (input from rider, I think), Cadence, and % Battery Remaining. When I added "eBike" as another sensor pairing - I got a few new screens which showed: %battery remaining, which support mode (tho I see 8 blocks, mode 1 shows 2 lit, mode 2 shows 4 lit, and mode 3 shows all lit), and both predicted distance and time left in the battery.

After I paired "eBike" - new data showed within Garmin Connect (the Garmin app for your phone) - I now have a section of stats for "eBike Performance" which shows a graph of my battery level over time (100 at the start, gradually lowering as time goes on), as well as which assist mode I was in over time (stair stepped).

Hope this helps the other data diggers...

- Will

 

[kevinmccune]

236 WATTS IN! thats impressive, I think I can do .08 KW(or close to 80 watts for a short period.)

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Not sure how to tap into the raw feed coming out of the TQ head unit, but I did record a ride using the TREK app and sent the GPX file to myself and crawled around it a bit.

TYPE=0 NAME=record NUMBER=20
--- timestamp=1057908299=2023-07-10T07:24:59Z
--- position_lat=622255220=52.1568300 deg
--- position_long=247337928=20.7316256 deg
--- gps_accuracy=1=1 m
--- altitude=2945=89.0 m
--- grade=0=0.00 %
--- distance=1600064=16000.64 m
--- calories=170=170 kcal
--- cadence=73=73 rpm
--- speed=6719=24.188 km/h
--- power=89=89 watts
--- temperature=22=22 deg.C
--- 12_0_ascent=14=14
--- 0_4_descent=10=10

Here is RAW code extracted from a .FIT file from a Wahoo computer connected to a Specialized e-bike. Some parameters such ambient temperature come from the device.
The independent BLEvo app can extract more than 50 parameters as a history file from a Specialized e-bike via Bluetooth. BLEvo will not work for newer Mastermind e-bikes.

 

[AntonioAlfaro]

TYPE=0 NAME=record NUMBER=20
--- timestamp=1057908299=2023-07-10T07:24:59Z
--- position_lat=622255220=52.1568300 deg
--- position_long=247337928=20.7316256 deg
--- gps_accuracy=1=1 m
--- altitude=2945=89.0 m
--- grade=0=0.00 %
--- distance=1600064=16000.64 m
--- calories=170=170 kcal
--- cadence=73=73 rpm
--- speed=6719=24.188 km/h
--- power=89=89 watts
--- temperature=22=22 deg.C
--- 12_0_ascent=14=14
--- 0_4_descent=10=10

Here is RAW code extracted from a .FIT file from a Wahoo computer connected to a Specialized e-bike. Some parameters such ambient temperature come from the device.
The independent BLEvo app can extract more than 50 parameters as a history file from a Specialized e-bike via Bluetooth. BLEvo will not work for newer Mastermind e-bikes.

Stefan, could you get the same information but for TQ motor ?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Stefan, could you get the same information but for TQ motor ?

Unfortunately not, Antonio. I do not own any TQ motor e-bike.

Now, I wonder how much information could be retrieved to a Wahoo ELEMNT or Garmin Edge via LEV ANT+ of the TQ Motor. For instance, the LEV ANT+ protocol knows nothing of the motor performance. It is the Bluetooth link of the TREK app that can extract such information from the motor!

 

[WillShootPhotos]

Unfortunately not, Antonio. I do not own any TQ motor e-bike.

Now, I wonder how much information could be retrieved to a Wahoo ELEMNT or Garmin Edge via LEV ANT+ of the TQ Motor. For instance, the LEV ANT+ protocol knows nothing of the motor performance. It is the Bluetooth link of the TREK app that can extract such information from the motor!

So far, I've found the GPX file from the TREK App has the most data. I did try sleuthing around the Garmin FIT file - but it has very minimal info in the file itself, much more in the GPX file. No clue if the wahoo picks up and saves more than the Garmin does. Wonder if I know someone I can borrow their head unit for a few rides...

But from your sample above, I don't think the Wahoo is saving much more (and maybe less) than the Garmin does.

Garmin does save "ebike_travel_range (looks to be in KM), "ebike_battery_level" (percent remaining), "ebike_assist_mode" (some odd numeric value of 0=off, 2=level 1, 4=level 2, and 7= level 3 - the garmin displays 7 "segments" for the bike power display, so I'm guessing that's how these relate); and "ebike_assist_level_percent (which appears to be garbage, it shows "255" for the whole file). There are HEAPS of other data points that seem to span any/all fields that any Garmin device might utilize... so lots of empties, and lots of the "expected" power, cadence, lat/lon, etc.

- Will

 

[Stefan Mikes]

But from your sample above, I don't think the Wahoo is saving much more (and maybe less) than the Garmin does.

As long as any of these devices is connected to a compatible e-bike via LEV ANT+, they will deliver exactly the same information. Only Garmin does not understand (yet) that an e-bike can have a Range Extender battery connected.

Proprietary Bluetooth apps can extract more information from respective e-bikes. The point is the information I get from my Specialized e-bikes via ANT+ is exactly what I need. If I need to know more, I can connect BLEvo or Mission Control to any of my e-bikes. That information is useful and enlightening but once I learned how my e-bikes really worked, I only use BLEvo to determine the real status of my batteries

 

[AntonioAlfaro]

Unfortunately not, Antonio. I do not own any TQ motor e-bike.

Now, I wonder how much information could be retrieved to a Wahoo ELEMNT or Garmin Edge via LEV ANT+ of the TQ Motor. For instance, the LEV ANT+ protocol knows nothing of the motor performance. It is the Bluetooth link of the TREK app that can extract such information from the motor!

Hi Stefan, unfortunately neither Garmin nor Karoo Hammerhead collect relevant information from the Domane+. You can't even see the power of the engine. It seems that the only way to access relevant information for further analysis is via the TREK app GPX file. At least Will has made it! I have tried every possible way without success. I have used GPX to JSON, to CSV, to XLSX conversions without success.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Hi Stefan, unfortunately neither Garmin nor Karoo Hammerhead collect relevant information from the Domane+. You can't even see the power of the engine. It seems that the only way to access relevant information for further analysis is via the TREK app GPX file. At least Will has made it! I have tried every possible way without success. I have used GPX to JSON, to CSV, to XLSX conversions without success.

This is what I said. LEV ANT+ transfers:

• Rear wheel RPM (speed, distance)
• Cadence
• Rider's power
• E-Bike Assist Mode
• E-Bike battery %
• E-Bike battery range (if the e-bike can calculate it) .

Anything else can only be collected by a proprietary OEM app using Bluetooth.

Still... A nice e-bike display, this Wahoo, isn't it.

 

[AntonioAlfaro]

This is what I said. LEV ANT+ transfers:

• Rear wheel RPM (speed, distance)
• Cadence
• Rider's power
• E-Bike Assist Mode
• E-Bike battery %
• E-Bike battery range (if the e-bike can calculate it) .

Anything else can only be collected by a proprietary OEM app using Bluetooth.

Still... A nice e-bike display, this Wahoo, isn't it.

marvelous! That's what I'm looking for, but it seems that the TQ system does not pair via LEV ANT+.
I'm not giving up, I'll keep investigating.
Thank you for your comments

 

[AntonioAlfaro]

Please find my data analysis:

Methodology proposal to establish the assistance levels in an E Bike

I was able to sideload the Ki2 workaround (highlighted by DC Rainmaker and Shane Miller) onto the Karoo 2. It shows the front and rear chain positioning very nicely. Not sure of the origin, but I also get a nice two beep alert when the next rear gear would trigger a concurrent Synchro 2 front...

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