ToSeven DM Series Mid Motors

JRA said:
I also can't stand any run on, especially in the lower assist modes and did all I could to program it out of my UART Bafang motor. I do find it interesting though that one of the big selling features in the EU spec motor genre that Bosch and Shimano are programing it into their systems now and touting it as a feature that allows for better control in uphill technical terrain?

I used to use the method EMGX describes when I had my first couple of TSDZ2 bikes with mechanical disc brake that were compatible with the levers that came with the kit also and it worked well enough but now that I use hydraulic brakes that method doesn't work for me any more. Although I have a throttle onboard I never use it over the same pedaling technique of reading the trail ahead and some artful crank timing along with dialing in instant engagement as possible via programming and a high engagement hub I can make it all work at least as well as I've been able to the last 40 yrs. of riding mtb.
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I have only experienced one Bosch unit on a Trek bike and it was pretty intuitive to pedal input and cut.. Hopefully when ToSeven programming goes open source someone can figure it out.

I can see the throttle as being pretty useful when crossing sections of rock and root areas to avoid pedal, motor and derailer strikes, if more progression can be added. The stock settings are ridiculous for this type of gentle crossing unless you are in too tall of a gear for the motor to go go go..

That reminds me- I need to construct a good skid plate to protect the motors case and stupidly exposed wiring that exists the bottom of the case. I have already hit it pretty hard on rocks and logs, as well as a few pretty hard hits from front tire kick-up of sticks and rocks. I cannot ride the trails that I want to ride with it because of this issue.
 
The DMO1 has those exposure issues. Over 100nm leads to all kinds of drive train problems. Some top MTBs have 250w.
 
Ken Shopken said:
I have only experienced one Bosch unit on a Trek bike and it was pretty intuitive to pedal input and cut.. Hopefully when ToSeven programming goes open source someone can figure it out.

I can see the throttle as being pretty useful when crossing sections of rock and root areas to avoid pedal, motor and derailer strikes, if more progression can be added. The stock settings are ridiculous for this type of gentle crossing unless you are in too tall of a gear for the motor to go go go..

That reminds me- I need to construct a good skid plate to protect the motors case and stupidly exposed wiring that exists the bottom of the case. I have already hit it pretty hard on rocks and logs, as well as a few pretty hard hits from front tire kick-up of sticks and rocks. I cannot ride the trails that I want to ride with it because of this issue.
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Actually the run on feature is baked into their latest software upgrades at certain assist levels for certain motors, I've just seen it mentioned on several platforms.

Problem is that although I have alot of off road motorcycle riding experience I still use the left brakelever for my rear brake and pedal like I always have on a bicycle and so reaching for the throttle while maneuvering underway I don't take time to think about using it and just react with my feet instead. YMMV of course as I know many do depend on the throttle more than I do.

I used to bang my TSDZ2 on logs sometimes also and cringed every time. Only once did it effect me negatively and even then luckily it resolved itself and I was able to continue on my way. But a skid plate is a good idea especially if the motor hangs below the chainring.
 
metanewbie said:
This thread has made me strongly consider avoiding mid-drive as an option. I appreciate all the warnings.
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What it should do is put you off of the ToSeven motors. Not mid drives.

Just for example, the Bafang motors (BBS02 and BBSHD) are renowned for rock solid reliability, and an enormous amount of 3rd party support on Youtube and elsewhere, both from the aftermarket and a myriad of user groups. The Bafangs are, really, standing alone atop their own mountain as if you want a plug and play add-on motor used by perhaps millions of riders all over the world, there's really nobody else in that league. The closest will be the Tongshengs but they are a pretty distant third place in terms of market penetration. After Tongsheng you are wayyyy down in the weeds.

My take on new motor platforms is always to wait two years and let the pioneers take the arrows in the back. Which is exactly whats happening here with ToSeven, and is also happening to the Cyc Photon owners.

The ToSeven and Cyc motors have gotten so much publicity because the the Bafangs are a little unexciting after being in the market so many years. So everyone has high hopes that we'll get some fancy new tech but then reality sets in and we see there's something to be said for the stodgy but dependable path.
 
m@Robertson said:
What it should do is put you off of the ToSeven motors. Not mid drives.

Just for example, the Bafang motors (BBS02 and BBSHD) are renowned for rock solid reliability, and an enormous amount of 3rd party support on Youtube and elsewhere, both from the aftermarket and a myriad of user groups. The Bafangs are, really, standing alone atop their own mountain as if you want a plug and play add-on motor used by perhaps millions of riders all over the world, there's really nobody else in that league. The closest will be the Tongshengs but they are a pretty distant third place in terms of market penetration. After Tongsheng you are wayyyy down in the weeds.

My take on new motor platforms is always to wait two years and let the pioneers take the arrows in the back. Which is exactly whats happening here with ToSeven, and is also happening to the Cyc Photon owners.

The ToSeven and Cyc motors have gotten so much publicity because the the Bafangs are a little unexciting after being in the market so many years. So everyone has high hopes that we'll get some fancy new tech but then reality sets in and we see there's something to be said for the stodgy but dependable path.
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Fair point. Bafangs are great. Cadence feels like a moped, not a bicycle. Preference, I know.
 
Also, the problems being discussed here on the ToSeven motor programming are all long since sussed out on the BBSxx platform. I prefer my take which results in a pretty refined cyclist-centric ride

talesontwowheels.com

BBSHD Programming For The Pedaling Cyclist (2023 Update)

Explore enhanced BBSHD programming for pedal assist settings that don't let the bike run away from you, and throttle settings gentle on the drivetrain.
talesontwowheels.com talesontwowheels.com

But Jon Sully took an entirely different approach, which he documents in detail. Not my cup of tea personally but this illustrates how much refinement has gone into the platform over a period of years. None of that has happened on the ToSeven platform yet.

jonsully.net

Sully's BBSHD Programming (for people that like pedaling) | Jon Sully

How to program a Bafang BBSHD to ride WITH the motor!
jonsully.net jonsully.net
 
metanewbie said:
Fair point. Bafangs are great. Cadence feels like a moped, not a bicycle. Preference, I know.
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As a cyclist, I specifically attacked that issue and I think I solved it via the link above. Jon Sully is also a cyclist and he chose entirely different motor behavior.

The Bafang programming is flat out awful. Its impossible for it to not run away from you. But if you take a stick and beat on it, you can totally change the character of that motor to something you barely recognize.

My flat land config for instance, on pedal assist, gives PEAK assist at around 400-450w. On a motor still capable of pouring on 1750w - using the same set of settings - via throttle.
 
Ken Shopken said:
Good stuff.. My current Sram cluster is coming apart with loose rivets.. The DM01 is too much for it. I will give the Sunrace solid steel a go. I appreciate the cheaper chain too.
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Things have changed still further since I wrote that post in August. I had not yet installed the 11s Microshift pie plate. Since then it has become a staple. Its a head-and-shoulders upgrade over the Sunrace. Much wider range, costs less and every cog is steel (except the big 46T which is fine). Zero issues with the 11s Linkglide chain and SRAM derailleur, which I extended to be able to handle the big cogs with a Wolftooth Roadlink that isn't supposed to work if you read the product literature, but in fact works great.

20240831_123342.jpg


The Sunrace has steel spiders but the Microshift is 1-piece steel cogs. I get a lot of traffic on this page and I keep the hardware sections updated as I come across new winners. I updated last on October 11 with pics of that Microshift among other things.

talesontwowheels.com

How To Build a Mid Drive Ebike That Doesn’t Break

Mid drives up the ante on the required competence of the builder. Read this so your bike lasts without things breaking or wearing out early.
talesontwowheels.com talesontwowheels.com
 
My latest ToSeven build is almost done. I will show photos Friday night. I just need to chop down some wire lengths to make it clean. It is my nicest build so far. I have been working at an all electric bike shop 50 hours per week since May and have not have time for many conversions. If you want to check out the place see Petaluma Motor Wheel. Much of the programing can be done through the display, except updates. I had to create a dongle end for that because the original is a girl on girl connection to the controller and does not plug in.
 
Can I use my current drivetrain if I get the mid-drive DM02 (I see it on sale for $330)?

Current drivetrain: 1x9, Microshift Advent SuperShort RD, 11-38 cassette, RaceFace Narrow-wide 30T, Microshift Advent Thumbshifter (friction mode.)

The major appeal of DM02 is that I can use nearly any voltage, for example, I can use these batteries.
 
metanewbie said:
Can I use my current drivetrain if I get the mid-drive DM02 (I see it on sale for $330)?

Current drivetrain: 1x9, Microshift Advent SuperShort RD, 11-38 cassette, RaceFace Narrow-wide 30T, Microshift Advent Thumbshifter (friction mode.)

The major appeal of DM02 is that I can use nearly any voltage, for example, I can use these batteries.
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@metanewbie,
Your drivetrain will work. The default chainring is 42. If you were my brother I would say to stay away from used scooter batteries because of the fire hazard. A fire is expensive. Here are some things I look for in a battery. 1) On/Off switch. 2) USB port. 3) Ease of mounting. 4) Premium cells. 5) Premium BMS chip. 6) Aluminum case. 7) Locking.

I just test rode that bike. It does not have a thumb throttle. As it is, assist level 1 is faster than any bike I have ever ridden. At a mild pedaling cadence of less than 40 there is nothing much, it is just pleasant. About 50 is very nice. Spooling from 50 up to 90 it takes off like a Porsche. The higher the cadence (up to 90) the more power delivery. It is mapped like the power curve of a sports car that loves to rev. 80 is mostly what I was doing in a middle gear. It also depleted one bar in seven miles and the motor was hand washing temp warm to the touch after the ride. I think you will want to down tune it so that you can use all five power assist levels and conserve the battery for longer rides. You can set the parameters for each level. You might try dropping each by 70%. Power level 2 was scary fast at high cadences.

Programing through the display overview:
Press Power for four seconds.
At the start up screen press and hold for four seconds Power and Up to get to the main menu.
At the main menu press and hold for four seconds Up and Down to get to the advanced menu.
The default access code is 1234.
 
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PedalUma said:
@metanewbie,
Your drivetrain will work. The default chainring is 42. If you were my brother I would say to stay away from used scooter batteries because of the fire hazard. A fire is expensive. Here are some things I look for in a battery. 1) On/Off switch. 2) USB port. 3) Ease of mounting. 4) Premium cells. 5) Premium BMS chip. 6) Aluminum case. 7) Locking.

I just test rode that bike. It does not have a thumb throttle. As it is, assist level 1 is faster than any bike I have ever ridden. At a mild pedaling cadence of less than 40 there is nothing much, it is just pleasant. About 50 is very nice. Spooling from 50 up to 90 it takes off like a Porsche. The higher the cadence (up to 90) the more power delivery. It is mapped like the power curve of a sports car that loves to rev. 80 is mostly what I was doing in a middle gear. It also depleted one bar in seven miles and the motor was hand washing temp warm to the touch after the ride. I think you will want to down tune it so that you can use all the power assist levels and conserve the battery for longer rides. You can set the parameters for each level. You might try dropping each by 70%. Power level 2 was scary fast at high cadences.

Programing through the display overview:
Press Power for four seconds.
At the start up screen press and hold for four seconds Power and Up to get to the main menu.
At the main menu press and hold for four seconds Up and Down to get to the advanced menu.
The default access code is 1234.
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That's a good warning on the battery. Much appreciated. Do you mean you test-road a bike with a DM02?
 
metanewbie said:
That's a good warning on the battery. Much appreciated. Do you mean you test-road a bike with a DM02?
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Yes, today I test rode a Surley Straggler that I converted with a ToSeven DMO2. I finished chopping off extra wire lengths today, soldering and sealing them to clean it up, and did the through display programing. I have owned BBS02's, an HD Bafang, and a bunch of TSDZ2's of all sorts. I am also in the industry and work at an all eBike store that is a Specialized dealer among many others. This bike has as much 'feel' as a Specialized with more power delivery at cadence than any moped style bike, including Super 73 and Ride1Up. It is the fastest bike I have ever ridden as far as torque enhancement delivery from pedal power input. And that is at power level 1. Fastest.
Note: I normally chop off all connectors. I did not do that with this bike but just hid them because of firmware programing updates. Or if the owner wants a new display in 2026. The only connector I chopped was to the speed sensor because that is not programable through a connector and they never go bad.
 
PedalUma said:
Yes, today I test rode a Surley Straggler that I converted with a ToSeven DMO2. I finished chopping off extra wire lengths today, soldering and sealing them to clean it up, and did the through display programing. I have owned BBS02's, an HD Bafang, and a bunch of TSDZ2's of all sorts. I am also in the industry and work at an all eBike store that is a Specialized dealer among many others. This bike has as much 'feel' as a Specialized with more power delivery at cadence than any moped style bike, including Super 73 and Ride1Up. It is the fastest bike I have ever ridden as far as torque enhancement delivery from pedal power input. And that is at power level 1. Fastest.
Note: I normally chop off all connectors. I did not do that with this bike but just hid them because of firmware programing updates. Or if the owner wants a new display in 2026. The only connector I chopped was to the speed sensor because that is not programable through a connector and they never go bad.
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So awesome! What brand/capacity/voltage batteries are you using for it? Does the ebike store have an online presence?
 
metanewbie said:
So awesome! What brand/capacity/voltage batteries are you using for it? Does the ebike store have an online presence?
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Thanks for asking. The bike store is in the alternate CA and is called Petaluma Motor Wheel. It has an online presence. But only sells to locals. That is what sets the place apart, the same price as online with local pro build set-up, service, and free follow-up. I have my batteries custom made for me one at a time to my specifications using 35e Samsung cells and super premium BMS. Even one from eBay would probably be fine. Look for local shipping from a place that is on google maps that has a physical location that is real. See that it has reviews that are verified and not on a site it controls. @m@Robertson can talk batteries. He knows.

That fast steel bike today has front and rear Tour/Bikepacking racks. It is 24.9 pounds in the rear and 20.0 in the front.
It is not really about top speed as most think, before tasting the wine, it is about acceleration, raw torque at rpm. Personally I do not wish to crash at over 24 mph with all the ER bills, dental work, physical therapy time, and cognitive therapy mess and loss of work time, that is a pain. I can get anywhere at 26 kph and still be happy everyday. I just rode it to 27.x mph (44.3+k) on a quarter mile. I was spinning out. It is not about the top, it is how you get there. On the same track my Vado will do 42 max. But it is more sedate even in level 5 when I was in level 2 on the eStraggler.
 
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metanewbie said:
Can I use my current drivetrain if I get the mid-drive DM02 (I see it on sale for $330)?

Current drivetrain: 1x9, Microshift Advent SuperShort RD, 11-38 cassette, RaceFace Narrow-wide 30T, Microshift Advent Thumbshifter (friction mode.)

The major appeal of DM02 is that I can use nearly any voltage, for example, I can use these batteries.
Click to expand...
I have a 1x11 Sram on a DM01 at 60v, but installed an ebike rated chain on it and a shift sensor. The drivetrain is holding up well for all but my cassette, which has loosening rivets. (soon to be replaced with a solid unit) I think I damaged the cassette by riding the bike when it was first assembled on its full sport assist mode and without an initial shift sensor to cut loads. I was very careful when shifting, but with so much power on tap, combined with programming that has too much trailing assist / power cut takes too long, (even on the 200ms minimal setting) it is easy to misjudge when power is still being applied.

I should have bought the DM02 as the DM01 is overkill for most of my riding on it. and spends its time in eco modes well under 500w so it can be ridden as an actual bicycle assist.

I plan on building a few more bikes, and will use the DM02 and maybe 72v and will install a shift sensor from the start.
 
Ken Shopken said:
I have a 1x11 Sram on a DM01 at 60v, but installed an ebike rated chain on it and a shift sensor. The drivetrain is holding up well for all but my cassette, which has loosening rivets. (soon to be replaced with a solid unit) I think I damaged the cassette by riding the bike when it was first assembled on its full sport assist mode and without an initial shift sensor to cut loads. I was very careful when shifting, but with so much power on tap, combined with programming that has too much trailing assist / power cut takes too long, (even on the 200ms minimal setting) it is easy to misjudge when power is still being applied.

I should have bought the DM02 as the DM01 is overkill for most of my riding on it. and spends its time in eco modes well under 500w so it can be ridden as an actual bicycle assist.

I plan on building a few more bikes, and will use the DM02 and maybe 72v and will install a shift sensor from the start.
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I will buy a microshift solid rear cassette..
 
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