ToSeven DM Series Mid Motors

@knightrider,
I just got the new programing software. I so hope it works. This bike has been unusable for months and it is not mine, it is a clients. My first of these went off without a hitch.
 
The app shell wouldn't take the com port and save it. So it could not communicate and other problems and program addresses that were flawed. I will now need to install a new motor. I have a spare, or a barley used, road tested TSDZ2-B from another bike. I know that will work. It is at a friend's for storage and some of my special tools are at the downtown shop where I work. It will require multiple trips. That bike will not fit into my private shop's door, it is so wide.
 
Even expensive new bikes from well known brands have problems. One guy has had so many problems we are getting him a replacement bike for free with a $300 credit for assembly and moving over his accessories. We have replaced everything under the warranty following the mfg's instructions and his bike still has problems. He got it in early July. It is a Haul LT.
 
DM01 control and display issues have developed.

A controller issue (I believe) has developed. The kit was installed in July and has about 200 miles on it.

On its last ride, output was very limited so I knew a problem was developing. The speed sensor output reading became erratic when selecting pas modes as well.

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The next day the display showed a discharged battery right after fully charging it. I verified a fully charged battery with a volt meter.

I went into settings and did a factory reset, followed by selecting again the correct battery voltage and cut off voltage etc.

Riding about the shop, performance seems to have returned for now, but the display is still showing a discharged battery.

Putting the display in the test mode display shows that the controller is capable of the full range of display.

Problem still persists.

I contacted Johnny Nerd Out, he recommended doing a firmware update.

I sent another contact request as supplied on the ToSeven webpage, but they have not responded. I am not surprised as they have not answered the last 2 requests.

Absolutely NO customer response, How pathetic.

What a shame as I have been wanting to install multiple numbers of their kits, and really like the DM01, but I will have to go with the new Tongshen or Cyc.

I will post this on the Discord page for High Voltage and the Endless Sphere DIY... maybe someone from ToSeven will check out their non existent customer service... or perhaps it may serve at least as a warning to any other potential customers / "one shot dump sales" plunder victims.

Thanks for whatever you can help with here..
 
I replaced the dud motor with a new ToSeven DM02 and road tested it today. It works. With a new 48V battery fully charged to 54.4 volts the display recognized it as a not fully charged 52V battery. That is no biggie. Riding it down and turning it back on will self correct that. Even though enabled, it did not recognize the throttle. I probably should have run the diagnostic. Again, no biggie, it has a torque sensor, so I just removed the throttle and delivered the bike to my customer. John Lange may want the dud for parts or to install a new controller in it. I will see if then send a return label. They did offer a full refund. That is why I hung in there with To7. I would be happy just to get a replacement motor.

Off topic: A guy handed me a non-working battery on Tuesday. It works now. I gave it a USB in through the USB output for four hours. That safely woke the BMS and allowed me to give it a charge.
 
Ken,

I see that you have a DM01 installed on your bike.

Im curious what chainring you are using and how your chainline is

I just test fitted a DM01(with a 1mm bb spacer on the drive side) with 42t offset(to the inside) chainring last night (BBSHD previously) and the chainline ended up being 7mm further out than my BBSHD or CYC photon builds on the same frame (Surly Ogre). Given the cassette spacing, it appears the lowest two gears in this setup will be unusable.

Are you able to use all the gears on your cassette?
 
linklemming said:
Ken,

I see that you have a DM01 installed on your bike.

Im curious what chainring you are using and how your chainline is

I just test fitted a DM01(with a 1mm bb spacer on the drive side) with 42t offset(to the inside) chainring last night (BBSHD previously) and the chainline ended up being 7mm further out than my BBSHD or CYC photon builds on the same frame (Surly Ogre). Given the cassette spacing, it appears the lowest two gears in this setup will be unusable.

Are you able to use all the gears on your cassette?
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I am running the offset 46T sprocket. The chain is a bit tortured on my largest 2 rear sprockets, but I dont use them for very long.

I tried to run the offset 42T but it does not fit the DM01 without grinding on the motor (questionable) or spacing the sprocket away from motor contact. It would loose too much of the offset to run a 10 or 11 speed cog.
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I installed the KMC E11 chain. Not cheap but its holding up to the abuse so far..

Live and learn, I will use a hub transmission on the next one, as the DM01 has enough power without needing the 11 speeds and pulls hard in low gear with the offset 46T.

I dont know if the images help, but I snapped a few when I gave up on installing the offset 42T.
 
PedalUma said:
I replaced the dud motor with a new ToSeven DM02 and road tested it today. It works. With a new 48V battery fully charged to 54.4 volts the display recognized it as a not fully charged 52V battery. That is no biggie. Riding it down and turning it back on will self correct that. Even though enabled, it did not recognize the throttle. I probably should have run the diagnostic. Again, no biggie, it has a torque sensor, so I just removed the throttle and delivered the bike to my customer. John Lange may want the dud for parts or to install a new controller in it. I will see if then send a return label. They did offer a full refund. That is why I hung in there with To7. I would be happy just to get a replacement motor.

Off topic: A guy handed me a non-working battery on Tuesday. It works now. I gave it a USB in through the USB output for four hours. That safely woke the BMS and allowed me to give it a charge.
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Glad you worked out a solution for your customers bike with John.

also- Good tip on potential recovery of an overly discharged battery through the usb port!
 
Ken Shopken said:
I am running the offset 46T sprocket. The chain is a bit tortured on my largest 2 rear sprockets, but I dont use them for very long.

I tried to run the offset 42T but it does not fit the DM01 without grinding on the motor (questionable) or spacing the sprocket away from motor contact. It would loose too much of the offset to run a 10 or 11 speed cog.
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Interesting....I dont have any fitment issues with my offset 42t other then the horrendous chainline

Im curious if the 42t chainring you have is mounted on the inside or the outside of the chainring spider(the center part the chainring bolts to). On mine, its mounted on the outside but looks like I just might be able to get it to work on the inside, giving me 5mm or so better chainline. If I did this it looks like it just may rub where you are showing.

While I dont use the 2 biggest gears on the cassette that often in relation to the miles I ride, I definately use them at last once per ride so not being able to use them would be a no go. I have lived with an 11-36 9 speed for years with 42t front and if anything I would like an 11-42t. I could go with an (11-50)11 speed linkglide cassette and not use the two biggest gears and still have a max 36t rear cog but that cassette is arond $130 (the 9 speed version is around $30)
 
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linklemming said:
Interesting....I dont have any fitment issues with my offset 42t other then the horrendous chainline

Im curious if the 42t chainring you have is mounted on the inside or the outside of the chainring spider(the center part the chainring bolts to). On mine, its mounted on the outside but looks like I just might be able to get it to work on the inside, giving me 5mm or so better chainline. If I did this it looks like it just may rub where you are showing.

While I dont use the 2 biggest gears on the cassette that often in relation to the miles I ride, I definately use them at last once per ride so not being able to use them would be a no go. I have lived with an 11-36 9 speed for years with 42t front and if anything I would like an 11-42t. I could go with an (11-50)11 speed linkglide cassette and not use the two biggest gears and still have a max 36t rear cog but that cassette is arond $130 (the 9 speed version is around $30)
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Sorry- I was at error and you are correct- I tried to fit the 38T which I could not practically fit, and ended up with the 42T on the bike.

I am currently running an 11-42 9 Sram cassette. I thought that I may have needed a larger rear cog for very steep climbs when I could not fit the 38T, but low gear has already surpassed what I expected for climbing capabilities on fairly steep hillclimbs on dirt bike trails. As long as my tires can get enough bite, I can climb it.

I have the sprocket mounted to the inside of the spider. There is quite a bit of room to move the sprocket towards the larger rear sprocket chainline with the use of spacers under the spider, but my compromise seems to work okay even with quite a bit of misalignment in 9th and 42 sprockets.
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Ken Shopken said:
I installed the KMC E11 chain. Not cheap but its holding up to the abuse so far..
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I have had excellent results with the KMC e11 myself. My Surly Big Fat Dummy uses two of them connected together to make an 180-link chain with a high torque setup (28T in front and 11-51T in the back) and one of my Bullitts has a KMC e11 running at 4100 miles and counting, although its a 2wd bike so I am cheating on the stress it receives.

But they are something like $55 a pop which does sting. I bought five Connex 11SE's when Jenson USA had them on sale for $25 each (versus the usual $105). Thats clearly not a long term solution since it was a one-off sale.

But the whole reason I'm posting at all is because there does now seem to be an 10s/11s mid drive chain that doesn't break the bank. The Shimano Linkglide 11s chain is about $25, and Shimano at least pays good lip service to it being mid drive stressed. I have a couple of them destined for the BFD when it finally wears its chain out (jumping ahead of the line to take the place of a couple of Connex'). Everything I have heard from DIY types is it is a winner for a higher powered motor.
 
I have used KMC e specific chains in 9/10/11s exclusively and have never had an issue for likely 20k miles. But yes, they are $$$

I am now transitioning to the Linkglide system on all my bikes. All 9/10/11s are compatible in that cog spacing is basically 11s. In addition the cassettes have a solid spider for the larger gears. My higher power higher mileage ebikes (CYC photon/BBSHD) are using the 9s cassette and shifter do to the low cost of the 9s cassette ($30). My true MTBs(Turbo Levo and Luna X2) are using the 11 speed cassettes for the additional larger rear gears (unfortunately $130 but I could swap in a $80 10 speed easily just by adjusting the limit screws on the rear derailler)
 
For years, I swore by KMC x9e and e9 chains. That or the e11. But in recent years, the market has given us new options. Many moons ago I did a whole SRAM EX1 drivetrain ($$$), which in 2024 I would never even consider.

For 9s clusters, Microshift Advent has an 11-46T that is solid, hardened steel cogs. Pinned together all over the place and even the 11T cog is steel. And its like $40. For 10s, Microshift Advent X is the same durable animal as the 9s in 11-48T and its about $45. For 11s clusters, the strongest is the Sunrace CSMS7 which is all steel again, and also pinned-together. Steel spiders. 11-42T but they just released an 11-46T. About $60. The BFD uses a Sunrace CSMS8 which is all steel except for the 51T cog, which I can live with. But now we've bumped up to about $105. But if you want ultra wide range and 11s thats the only one I'd trust with a BBSHD.

For my 9s setups I have been using the SRAM EX1 chain, which is compatible with 8s thru 10S and is $25 or less. Indestructible. For 10 and 11s I've been using just 11s chains. The narrower exterior of the 11s makes a 10s as quiet as a belt and an 11s chain's interior dimensions are the same as 10s so it works just as well.

For derailleurs I've used Box 2 and Microshift for 9s, Advent X for 10S. SRAM GX for 11s. I have to say the Advent X is my favorite of the bunch for cost and smoothness. But the Box 2 ultra wide long cage is the slickest. And the most expensive..

As far as I can see, Most of the Linkglide system is just Shimano offering what you can get elsewhere for less $. In particular their cassettes. But if I wanted a wide range 11s derailleur, I'd have to go Linkglide. SRAM maxes out at 42T.
 
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m@Robertson said:
For years, I swore by KMC x9e and e9 chains. That or the e11. But in recent years, the market has given us new options. Many moons ago I did a whole SRAM EX1 drivetrain ($$$), which in 2024 I would never even consider.

For 9s clusters, Microshift Advent has an 11-46T that is solid, hardened steel cogs. Pinned together all over the place and even the 11T cog is steel. And its like $40. For 10s, Microshift Advent X is the same durable animal as the 9s in 11-48T and its about $45. For 11s clusters, the strongest is the Sunrace CSMS7 which is all steel again, and also pinned-together. Steel spiders. 11-42T but they just released an 11-46T. About $60. The BFD uses a Sunrace CSMS8 which is all steel except for the 51T cog, which I can live with. But now we've bumped up to about $105. But if you want ultra wide range and 11s thats the only one I'd trust with a BBSHD.

For my 9s setups I have been using the SRAM EX1 chain, which is compatible with 8s thru 10S and is $25 or less. Indestructible. For 10 and 11s I've been using just 11s chains. The narrower exterior of the 11s makes a 10s as quiet as a belt and an 11s chain's interior dimensions are the same as 10s so it works just as well.

For derailleurs I've used Box 2 and Microshift for 9s, Advent X for 10S. SRAM GX for 11s. I have to say the Advent X is my favorite of the bunch for cost and smoothness. But the Box 2 ultra wide long cage is the slickest. And the most expensive..

As far as I can see, Most of the Linkglide system is just Shimano offering what you can get elsewhere for less $. In particular their cassettes. But if I wanted a wide range 11s derailleur, I'd have to go Linkglide. SRAM maxes out at 42T.
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As always thanks for all the info:

The Linkglide 9 speed is actually pretty reasonable

My two high power high mileage bikes (Surly Ogres with CYC photon and BBSHD) previously had KMC e9 chain($40), SRAM X5 9 speed shifter($32) and derailler($50) and HG400 11-36 cassette ($30) for a total of $152. A shimano Cues U4000 9 speed with 11-46 cassette is within 10 bucks
https://www.jensonusa.com/Shimano-CUES-U4000-9-SPEED-KIT

Replacement cassettes are pretty much the same between the HG400 and Linkglide and I get a lower gear on the linkglide which is needed for the CYC photon due to the reduced power compared to the BBSHD.

The two 11 speed linkglide setups I have are way much more money but they are for my dedicated offroad eMTBs which need all the gear range and resolution offered by the 11 speed setup(11-50) and dont have anywhere the mileage (40 miles a week between the two).

Since all my linkglide setups use the same 11s chain, I can carry a spare linkglide chain in my camelback for all my bikes(4 total, 2 9s, 2 11s)

I have heard alot of good things about the robustness of the BOX 9 speed setup. Specifically by Jones Bikes. Next time the Jones LWB HD/e frameset goes on sell, Im going to try one with a BBSHD, maybe even at 72V😀
 
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linklemming said:
As always thanks for all the info:

The Linkglide 9 speed is actually pretty reasonable

My two high power high mileage bikes (CYC photon and BBSHD) previously had KMC e9 chain($40), SRAM X5 9 speed shifter($32) and derailler($50) and HG400 11-36 cassette ($30) for a total of $152. A shimano Cues U4000 9 speed with 11-46 cassette is within 10 bucks
https://www.jensonusa.com/Shimano-CUES-U4000-9-SPEED-KIT

Replacement cassettes are pretty much the same between the HG400 and Linkglide and I get a lower gear on the linkglide which is needed for the CYC photon due to the reduced power compared to the BBSHD.

The two 11 speed linkglide setups I have are way much more money but they are for my dedicated offroad eMTBs which need all the gear range offered by the 11 speed setup and dont have anywhere the mileage (40 miles a week between the two).

Since all my linkglide setups use the same 11s chain, I can carry a spare linkglide chain in my camelback

I have heard alot of good things about the robustness of the BOX 9 speed setup. Specifically by Jones Bikes. Next time the Jones LWB HD/e frameset goes on sell, Im going to try one with a BBSHD
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I have personally have had good fortune with the Box Prime 9 group set. It is like $200 for the shifter, cable housing, cable, derailleur, and chain with cassette. They all work together at 11-47 to 11-50. With mid-power a nine is fine. I have been tempted to shave off 4.5mm off the right of a wide MTB bb for the line to hit one with a motor. Note: The guy paid me labor for the battery save. He had given up and even tossed the charger. So, I sold him a new one today. When I was naïve, I jumped a pallet of Specialized dud batteries by using full power forced into the discharge to awaken their BMS to take a charge. Don't do that. USB further allows for safe gradual discharge.
 
Box 2 Prime 9 Extra Wide was my favorite until I discovered the Microshift Advent was functionally just as good and much less expensive. Just not as pretty of a finish. Workmanlike vs. work of art. Here's a Box 2 Extra Wide 9s, with a SRAM EX1 chain and a Microshift Advent steel cluster. I use the Box 1 single-stage shifter because it has a hinged clamp for the handlebars, and a super slick cable and cable housing. Everyone says you have to buy their matching family clusters for compatibility but this is horse$hit. Throw on the cheap, pinned steel Microshift and it works like a champ.

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At about the same time, I built up a couple of SRAM 11s and remembered why more gears are more better. If pedaling and cadence are your thing, there's no substitute for a couple more available options. I just didn't like the extra price. Particularly of the e11 chains.

Then I got an Advent X 10s derailleur, cluster and shifter on clearance from California Ebike. It turned out to be my absolute favorite. 10 gears is enough options, and Advent X is still cheap but perfectly effective. Its my drivetrain on my daily driver and is approaching 2200 miles with no adjustments.

I have a Microshift Advent H11 11-46T, 11s steel cassette arriving tomorrow. Am going to try and fit it to a SRAM GX drivetrain on my formerly-flatland green Bullitt. It has an 11-42T CSMS7 on it and I am doing whatever I can to get some gbigger gears in back now that it rides in hills only now.
 
The new TSDZ8 is reported to have an improved chainline with a deeper dished chainring. Tongsheng has apparently made several other improvements vs the original TSDZ2 and "B" version (which doesn't appear to me to have any significant advantage over the non-B version). AliExpress for less than $300 including shipping, somewhat more on ebay. Downside is that it is significantly heavier at ~13# including cranks and chainring vs 8.75# total (measured by me with a hanging scale) for the TSDZ2. I already have too much stuff so not interested, especially with the heavy weight, but it might be a good solution for someone looking for a torque sensing high powered mid drive DIY solution vs the much more expensive CYC and the reportedly buggy ToSeven.

TSDZ8 review and TSDZ2 OSF comparison (TSDZ8 vs TSDZ2 OSF)

ebikestuff.eu ebikestuff.eu

Tongsheng TSDZ8 750W 48V teardown, disassembly

ebikestuff.eu ebikestuff.eu
 
Seems like the odds of a working DM02, even purchased from a US seller is less than 50%. At least it was the peripheral stuff that didn't work, and you got them replaced quick, I don't mind rolling the dice on a DM02, but don't have a candidate bike, nor the room for it either, Maybe next year after I get rid of a few bikes.

We have put a lot of miles this year on our TSDZ2 conversions, but only because of the OSF firmware. With stock firmware, I had to go to Turbo mode to feel any assist, OSF moves the power band down to lower pedal pressure which transforms the riding for me. In turn, that got me into better condition, so I stay in Eco mode. My wife's bike is set up for cadence mode. The torque sense must still work because it starts fast, In any event, she likes her TSDZ2 better than her hub motor which had twice the power, because of its quick start.

I do dislike hooking up my laptop to my bikes and playing with settings. If it's a necessary evil, OK, but I'll be waiting on the DM02 if they're still in beta firmware,
 
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