ToSeven DM Series Mid Motors
- Thread starter JRA
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JRA
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Since getting my Z1 I haven't paid much attention to DIY options but bitd I did have some good experiences with the TSDZ2, I guess better than most did perhaps? Anyway I am a bit sad that the new TongShen is heavier and most of all still using a square taper bb spindle. Once in awhile I consider building up a hardtail project bike that would be substantially lighter than my current bike for riding in the hood as I did so for quite a few years to begin with, but I'll be passing on the ones mentioned here I guess.
I just put my unused TSDZ2 with the standard 42t 5mm dished chainring on a 20" folder that has 11-34 freewheel. As always the chainline was bad on the largest rear cog but having a 42t 10mm offset narrow-wide aftermarket chainring I replaced the OEM with that instead. The chainline significantly improved but on the 34t rear cog the NW chainring wanted to walk the chain and drop it off due to the short chain distance from the chainring to the rear cog. This didn't happen with the stamped OEM even though it only had 5mm offset because the narrow teeth didn't cause the chain to climb off. I made a chain guide out of some parts box stuff that I have sitting around. Now no chain drop and the guide only has very minimal contact with the chain, and only on the 34t cog - being stopped from climbing off the chainring as soon as it wants to start.
PedalUma
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- Petaluma, CA
The chain guide on a BBS02 build I did a tune on today was the battery. As soon as I saw the motor I checked the chain. Sure enough. It also had loops of wires and a lose motor that crushed the shift housing routed between the motor and downtube.
m@Robertson
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I've never broken a chain, either, across many bikes, miles, years etc. I do always carry a spare though. The whole chain not just a few links. And a breaker and a pair of pliers. I've spent too much time sitting roadside fixing things I never expected to break, to settle on half-measures.
I got a look at the Microshift H113 11s cluster and was pleased to see it is fully pinned together, and all steel except for the big 46T cog, which I can live with. The biggest cog is also piggybacked onto the next-biggest so its not as strong as a Sunrace CSMS7. BUT... I can't find a CSMS7 in its new 46T size so the Microshift will have to do.
I usually do a little better than 6 gears. My 10s Bullitt has 9 out of 10, with 7 being what I consider to be long-term acceptable. But it took a few tries.
I had settled on the top config, but switching to the Luna on the front shifted my sweet spot inboard which better suits my riding. The 11T went to a big maybe (that I never use) and the 48T became usable but I haven't felt a need to do so and put that kind of wear on the chain.
A lot of the room you have to work with is tied to your chainstay length. The Bullitt has short stays and sharp angles happen as a result. My Big Fat Dummy longtail, on the other hand, with a 180-link chain, can easily use all 11 cogs without issue, and I don't even need an offset chainring.
PedalUma
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- Petaluma, CA
I had to work on a Jetson 'bike' today. It was pre-billed $40 labor only as a rear tire change on a hub-drive bike. 1) There is no connector between the controller and the motor, so you need to work on the wheel upside down while it dangles by the wire. 2) The caliper sits behind the wheel so needs to be removed to pull the wheel from the rear horizontal dropouts. 3) The chainguard needs to be removed. 4) The right pedal needs to be removed because the crank is too short to fit a puller. 5) The crank and ring need to be removed to get off the chain because the stays are like 17 inches long with no play. 6) The chain with 20 months of WD-40 tar needs to be removed. 7) Then the tensioner can be loosened and the wheel dropped. 8) Then there is dealing with all the slime from a failed roadside attempt. 9) The new factory tube had a faulty valve, so replace the valve, and the stem is up against the disc so there is almost no logical way to pump it and also remove the frame pump from the valve before it re-deflates the third time. This particular one also had a highly warped rotor because someone tried and failed to remove the wheel without removing the caliper first. 10) The tensioner is on the right side only so it makes the disc go sideways. Oh, I have not heard back from To7 and may be out the money for a dud new motor.
Moral: Never throw your wallet at a steaming pile of dog crap. Get yourself a real bike. And just say, NO to a Jetson!
Moral: Never throw your wallet at a steaming pile of dog crap. Get yourself a real bike. And just say, NO to a Jetson!
Ken Shopken
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What a repair shop s*it storm.. This sort of circus happens on motorcycle and automotive repair tickets too, where you step on a grenade and trip on the pin, sometimes costing days of misery and gold. Oem, neglect / abuse or hacker causes.. angered tool gods or sunspots maybe.
It must cost Jetson a bit to deal with their own creations of unfortunate mechanical mayhem..
Hopefully JNO can help you out on the DM01. I am going to see if I can "rent" a programming cord for mine, as ToSeven is still not responding... So pathetic..
Images are an example of knowingly stepping on it... I repair a local pro hillclimbing groups bikes. Some of them are real messes, and I am called into action for issues they cannot solve themselves. This is the 3rd clutch on this R1 Yamaha powered monster, the last one liquified the aluminum plates when they used 2nd gear on a climb and sent aluminum and friction material into the oil pickup. They did manage the fastest pro climb of the day however...
Check out the rear brake line routing and connections... They have no fear of such things and no concern about it!
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Ken Shopken
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Additional issues with my DM01- when pushing the crankset a bit hard in a taller gear and or on a standing climb, the deflection of the chainwheel drive is a bit concerning. Noise is generated in the chain to sprocket as it wobbles a bit out of true. The sprag clutch will also do momentary skips on changes in crank load and make some unpleasant noises.
I realize that there are some significant engineering challenges with a single support bearing design, but this seems a bit excessive.
A peek inside...
I realize that there are some significant engineering challenges with a single support bearing design, but this seems a bit excessive.
A peek inside...
m@Robertson
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My experience with a Cyc X1 Pro told me I would not touch the Photon until its had two years in the market, and it turns out that was a good move. I said the same thing with ToSeven and sadly it doesn't look like we will need anywhere near that long to judge them.
Ken Shopken
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Good advice.
The complete lack of available service parts or even a digital owners / shop manual were warnings as well.
I knew better, but bit anyway.
PedalUma
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- Petaluma, CA
They contacted me with an overnight email. They gave me three reasonable options including a refund. I will field disable and document that with the photos and the serial number bar or qr. I knew @m@Robertson's perspective going in and respect it. Yet I was willing to get out front on this learning curve. Leaders are not necessarily victors when taking a hill. They are the earlier ones. I also kept to the lower power motor on purpose. We are in for ten hours working on one guy's new bike and his dud warranty replacement bike. Specialized is paying, but he has had the bike for 5 weeks with only two days out of the shop. He will demand a refund from the dealer, $4500. I packed a Velotric Discover today to ship to the factory for replacement. It is two years old but never worked and was direct to consumer with no support. So, the brand new Discover 2 arrives for him next week.
linklemming
Well-Known Member
I was aware of such issues being an early adopter of the DM01 and was willing to take the risk, whats the fun of blindly following someone else, that would make you a lemming
. I really didnt see the bad chainline thing coming though, totally caught me offguard. I was in the final stages of mounting it when I decided to try the chainring and was sure I had done something wrong. IMHO, if your willing to loose the lowest two gears it might work for you for chainrings of 42t or lower. There is a nub on the housing for the pinion gear (small gear that drives the larger gear) that rubs. This would be an issue even with a lekkie 42t setup if its ever produced. 44t+ might be fine but wont work on my Surly Ogres(42t max on a 1x setup) as I require the complete gear range. I will sell it locally.I have never used a BBSHD without the lekkie 42t chainring so maybe the BBSHD with stock chainring has a bad chainline as well.
I was also an early adopter of the CYC photon and this worked out well for me. Its by far the best DIY setup as far as overall quality and torque sensing feel although the BBSHD beats it on overall power. As good as the BBSHD is, its not torque sensing. My first DIY setup was a Grin GMAC with torque sensor followed by a BBSHD. At one point I converted the GMAC to a BBSHD and had two BBSHD bikes for about 4 months. While this was doable I converted one of them back to the torque sensing(erider) GMAC and it was like night and day feelwise compared to the BBSHD. Despite all the bad press by the 'high voltage channel' on youtube, I decided to try the CYC photon.
Its obvious to me that the 'high voltage channel' on youtube has a grudge against CYC and the photon. As can be seen from his videos, he likes to ride around on throttle only and sells BBSHD 72V kits so thats his perspective. The CYC photon was never designed for that(20mph+ up 10% grades on throttle only), it was designed to be a DIY equivalent to factory mid-drives like bosch, brose etc. Im a huge brose fan (all my factory ebikes(2 at the moment, 4 total) have been brose). At one point he 'tried' to compare the CYC photon the the DM02 and his bottom line was the DM02 was 90% of the Photon as far as torque feel (which I completely disagree with) and that ToSeven was 'willing' to work with modders (whatever that means).
In my case, I replaced my 52V GMAC 10T/phaserunner setup with a CYC photon and get better performance with the CYC both in overall efficiency, average speed and thermal characteristics. Overall over hundreds of rides the CYC is better/more efficient and lighter than the GMAC which is an AWESOME setup around here. i have not ridden one mile on my GMAC setup after going to the CYC photon and I rode the GMAC setup for over two years (10k miles +, typically 25 miles with 1500+ elevation gain))
While I agree the photon is probably not best for mr robertson, I dont understand how he is so negative on something he has no experience with directly
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Ken Shopken
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Good stuff.. My current Sram cluster is coming apart with loose rivets.. The DM01 is too much for it. I will give the Sunrace solid steel a go. I appreciate the cheaper chain too.
m@Robertson
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Yup it sure does. I am currently trying out a Gustavo chainring, which is a US$35 clone of the Lekkie. Just to see how it behaves. Its powder-coated vs. anodized so it appears to wear immediately, but thats just the powder coating wearing off. It also has a little less offset, but only a little. I've got a slew of Lekkie rings ranging from 52T all the way down to 28T, so I'm a big fan... but $35 versus about US$150 now on some of the sizes makes for a powerful argument to go cheap and just buy 5 of them as they wear out.
On the other hand, I just bought another Luna Eclipse and two more 42T replacement sprockets. I'm using them on two bikes now. I depend on their 22.2mm offset to be able to get as good of a chainline as I can on big cogs.
I've had a fair bit of personal communication with him and what I got was he had great hopes for the Cyc, but if you dig a little into his experiences, his wife was using the Photon for a pedelec commuter and it failed on her. Then he had to send the motor back to Cyc for a few weeks turnaround because there were no user-serviceable parts. He got the motor back, but an experience like that is the sort of thing that sours you on something you have to depend on for transportation. Especially when you see that Cyc is moving towards a dealer-service model.
I have seen literally countless user group reports of similar reliability issues going back to the Cyc X1 Pro v1.0, where it was pretty clear that Cyc was great on doing paid returns, and sending out replacement parts, but they were also clearly using their production customers as beta testers, and this went down very poorly in the Cyc user groups at the time (for instance, not using hardened steel on the main gear for the kart chain... oops. They replaced the worn out ones but still... you had to find that one the hard way and live with the down time). I know they tried to reverse that with the Photon, but its not just that High Voltage guy who still suffered. Lets remember the Proton was supposed to follow the Photon, but it still hasn't seen the light of day, and nagging issues with the Photon design are likely the reason why
Because I can see other people reporting their experiences, and they sound entirely familiar in terms of the nature of the problem. I've also had the opportunity to talk directly with people who have experience trying to sell them. I take it you've heard the publicly acknowledged return rate on these motors? All you have to do is scroll up and you'll see another one here in this thread. And this is a motor that sells for $950. I expect premium reliability for a premium price like that. And its pretty clear you don't get that. I think its great that you had good experience. But I can't close my eyes to problems that are clearly more common among Cyc product owners than they should be.
And if that is not enough, the Photon requires an internal re-grease after a few thousand miles and this service must be handled by a dealer. The motor has to be removed, sent in for service and your bike is disabled until that motor comes back to you. I don't need to own one to understand the negative ramifications of that.
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m@Robertson
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Take a peek at the Microshift too. Now that I have it in hand, it looks pretty good. Installing it this weekend. Can be had for right at the same price as the Sunrace. Neither Sunrace or Microshift clusters have given me even the slightest bit of trouble.
Ken Shopken
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Does anyone know which setting can shorten / shut off the trailing motor assist? I am doing too many loop outs on hard climbs, when I momentarily quit pedaling for front wheel lift, but the motor keeps assisting. Riding a wheelie or carrying the front wheel over holes is not possible with the stock settings! I found the settings for assist delay and set it to assist immediately upon pedal pressure (much better for off road control and balance with pedal input) but this can amplify the trailing assist issue. The other day when starting a ride, I hopped on and gave one pedal a good crank to get moving while in a lower gear, and did a near wipe out as trailing assist boosted the low gear bike almost past the balance point. I was not expecting that! Off road needs immediate response and immediate assist cut similar to a motorcycle. I have the LCD135C if that matters for settings menu.
Ken Shopken
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I set run time on the "PAS - Keep Time" to its lowest time of 200ms. The adjustment is a BIG improvement to the annoying trailing assist, but there is still a bit too much trailing assist to ride wheelies or carry the front tire over anything with any confidence. As it was mentioned earlier, it also reduced assist on takeoff and lower input cadence in a negative way. If I let cadence falls below 60 or if I continued in a higher gear, assist would abruptly stop or refuse to begin assisting. It would also shut off assist intermittently when climbing at anything below 5mph. I fell off the bike 2 times while doing low speed maneuvers. The stock settings would only have this fault if I were going very slow in a tall gear while in a standing, hard pedal climb. I will unfortunately have to raise the trailing assist time and wait for the firmware cable and update to hopefully address this issue.
A simple fix might be to add a motor cuttoff to one or both of your brake levers. Tap the brake to instantly shut off the motor. I did this to a TSDZ2 that I had converted to be coaster brake compatible with a solid main gear. The run on wasn't that bad but it interfered for an instant when backpedaling for braking.
JRA
Well-Known Member
I also can't stand any run on, especially in the lower assist modes and did all I could to program it out of my UART Bafang motor. I do find it interesting though that one of the big selling features in the EU spec motor genre that Bosch and Shimano are programing it into their systems now and touting it as a feature that allows for better control in uphill technical terrain?
I used to use the method EMGX describes when I had my first couple of TSDZ2 bikes with mechanical disc brake that were compatible with the levers that came with the kit also and it worked well enough but now that I use hydraulic brakes that method doesn't work for me any more. Although I have a throttle onboard I never use it over the same pedaling technique of reading the trail ahead and some artful crank timing along with dialing in instant engagement as possible via programming and a high engagement hub I can make it all work at least as well as I've been able to the last 40 yrs. of riding mtb.
Ken Shopken
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Good call on that. Years of technical dirt bike riding have permanently taught me to use the front brake on the right hand side and the foot brake for traction control, front end loft drop on jumps and vertical wheelie management. It is so learned that I must move my mountain bicycle front brake to the right hand side, and although I have used an aux rear brake hand leaver on the left on motorcycles, its not intuitive for me to apply it there to lower a wheelie or to lower the rear wheel on a jump from that leaver.. That split second of hesitation endlessly gets me in trouble. I will keep working on it!
