ToSeven DM Series Mid Motors

[linklemming]

For years, I swore by KMC x9e and e9 chains. That or the e11. But in recent years, the market has given us new options. Many moons ago I did a whole SRAM EX1 drivetrain ($$$), which in 2024 I would never even consider.

For 9s clusters, Microshift Advent has an 11-46T that is solid, hardened steel cogs. Pinned together all over the place and even the 11T cog is steel. And its like $40. For 10s, Microshift Advent X is the same durable animal as the 9s in 11-48T and its about $45. For 11s clusters, the strongest is the Sunrace CSMS7 which is all steel again, and also pinned-together. Steel spiders. 11-42T but they just released an 11-46T. About $60. The BFD uses a Sunrace CSMS8 which is all steel except for the 51T cog, which I can live with. But now we've bumped up to about $105. But if you want ultra wide range and 11s thats the only one I'd trust with a BBSHD.

For my 9s setups I have been using the SRAM EX1 chain, which is compatible with 8s thru 10S and is $25 or less. Indestructible. For 10 and 11s I've been using just 11s chains. The narrower exterior of the 11s makes a 10s as quiet as a belt and an 11s chain's interior dimensions are the same as 10s so it works just as well.

For derailleurs I've used Box 2 and Microshift for 9s, Advent X for 10S. SRAM GX for 11s. I have to say the Advent X is my favorite of the bunch for cost and smoothness. But the Box 2 ultra wide long cage is the slickest. And the most expensive..

As far as I can see, Most of the Linkglide system is just Shimano offering what you can get elsewhere for less $. In particular their cassettes. But if I wanted a wide range 11s derailleur, I'd have to go Linkglide. SRAM maxes out at 42T.

As always thanks for all the info:

The Linkglide 9 speed is actually pretty reasonable

My two high power high mileage bikes (Surly Ogres with CYC photon and BBSHD) previously had KMC e9 chain($40), SRAM X5 9 speed shifter($32) and derailler($50) and HG400 11-36 cassette ($30) for a total of $152. A shimano Cues U4000 9 speed with 11-46 cassette is within 10 bucks
https://www.jensonusa.com/Shimano-CUES-U4000-9-SPEED-KIT

Replacement cassettes are pretty much the same between the HG400 and Linkglide and I get a lower gear on the linkglide which is needed for the CYC photon due to the reduced power compared to the BBSHD.

The two 11 speed linkglide setups I have are way much more money but they are for my dedicated offroad eMTBs which need all the gear range and resolution offered by the 11 speed setup(11-50) and dont have anywhere the mileage (40 miles a week between the two).

Since all my linkglide setups use the same 11s chain, I can carry a spare linkglide chain in my camelback for all my bikes(4 total, 2 9s, 2 11s)

I have heard alot of good things about the robustness of the BOX 9 speed setup. Specifically by Jones Bikes. Next time the Jones LWB HD/e frameset goes on sell, Im going to try one with a BBSHD, maybe even at 72V

 

[PedalUma]

As always thanks for all the info:

The Linkglide 9 speed is actually pretty reasonable

My two high power high mileage bikes (CYC photon and BBSHD) previously had KMC e9 chain($40), SRAM X5 9 speed shifter($32) and derailler($50) and HG400 11-36 cassette ($30) for a total of $152. A shimano Cues U4000 9 speed with 11-46 cassette is within 10 bucks
https://www.jensonusa.com/Shimano-CUES-U4000-9-SPEED-KIT

Replacement cassettes are pretty much the same between the HG400 and Linkglide and I get a lower gear on the linkglide which is needed for the CYC photon due to the reduced power compared to the BBSHD.

The two 11 speed linkglide setups I have are way much more money but they are for my dedicated offroad eMTBs which need all the gear range offered by the 11 speed setup and dont have anywhere the mileage (40 miles a week between the two).

Since all my linkglide setups use the same 11s chain, I can carry a spare linkglide chain in my camelback

I have heard alot of good things about the robustness of the BOX 9 speed setup. Specifically by Jones Bikes. Next time the Jones LWB HD/e frameset goes on sell, Im going to try one with a BBSHD

I have personally have had good fortune with the Box Prime 9 group set. It is like $200 for the shifter, cable housing, cable, derailleur, and chain with cassette. They all work together at 11-47 to 11-50. With mid-power a nine is fine. I have been tempted to shave off 4.5mm off the right of a wide MTB bb for the line to hit one with a motor. Note: The guy paid me labor for the battery save. He had given up and even tossed the charger. So, I sold him a new one today. When I was naïve, I jumped a pallet of Specialized dud batteries by using full power forced into the discharge to awaken their BMS to take a charge. Don't do that. USB further allows for safe gradual discharge.

 

[m@Robertson]

Box 2 Prime 9 Extra Wide was my favorite until I discovered the Microshift Advent was functionally just as good and much less expensive. Just not as pretty of a finish. Workmanlike vs. work of art. Here's a Box 2 Extra Wide 9s, with a SRAM EX1 chain and a Microshift Advent steel cluster. I use the Box 1 single-stage shifter because it has a hinged clamp for the handlebars, and a super slick cable and cable housing. Everyone says you have to buy their matching family clusters for compatibility but this is horse$hit. Throw on the cheap, pinned steel Microshift and it works like a champ.

At about the same time, I built up a couple of SRAM 11s and remembered why more gears are more better. If pedaling and cadence are your thing, there's no substitute for a couple more available options. I just didn't like the extra price. Particularly of the e11 chains.

Then I got an Advent X 10s derailleur, cluster and shifter on clearance from California Ebike. It turned out to be my absolute favorite. 10 gears is enough options, and Advent X is still cheap but perfectly effective. Its my drivetrain on my daily driver and is approaching 2200 miles with no adjustments.

I have a Microshift Advent H11 11-46T, 11s steel cassette arriving tomorrow. Am going to try and fit it to a SRAM GX drivetrain on my formerly-flatland green Bullitt. It has an 11-42T CSMS7 on it and I am doing whatever I can to get some gbigger gears in back now that it rides in hills only now.

 

[knightrider]

For years, I swore by KMC x9e and e9 chains. That or the e11. But in recent years, the market has given us new options. Many moons ago I did a whole SRAM EX1 drivetrain ($$$), which in 2024 I would never even consider.

For 9s clusters, Microshift Advent has an 11-46T that is solid, hardened steel cogs. Pinned together all over the place and even the 11T cog is steel. And its like $40. For 10s, Microshift Advent X is the same durable animal as the 9s in 11-48T and its about $45. For 11s clusters, the strongest is the Sunrace CSMS7 which is all steel again, and also pinned-together. Steel spiders. 11-42T but they just released an 11-46T. About $60. The BFD uses a Sunrace CSMS8 which is all steel except for the 51T cog, which I can live with. But now we've bumped up to about $105. But if you want ultra wide range and 11s thats the only one I'd trust with a BBSHD.

For my 9s setups I have been using the SRAM EX1 chain, which is compatible with 8s thru 10S and is $25 or less. Indestructible. For 10 and 11s I've been using just 11s chains. The narrower exterior of the 11s makes a 10s as quiet as a belt and an 11s chain's interior dimensions are the same as 10s so it works just as well.

For derailleurs I've used Box 2 and Microshift for 9s, Advent X for 10S. SRAM GX for 11s. I have to say the Advent X is my favorite of the bunch for cost and smoothness. But the Box 2 ultra wide long cage is the slickest. And the most expensive..

As far as I can see, Most of the Linkglide system is just Shimano offering what you can get elsewhere for less $. In particular their cassettes. But if I wanted a wide range 11s derailleur, I'd have to go Linkglide. SRAM maxes out at 42T.

I run the standard kmc chains on bbshd, x1 cyc, to seven and everthing else I build. Prefer the micro shift 9 with the sunrace cassette reconfigured for good chain lines. Never broken a chain. Chain line is the secret to reliability on diy bikes. The factory rigs are designed around the good chain lines. The home brew ones aren`t. This is the reason I give up the half stepping gears to obtain a clean chain line. I usually end up with 6 speeds. The cross chaining is what is breaking your chain not the straight line pull.

 

[EMGX]

The new TSDZ8 is reported to have an improved chainline with a deeper dished chainring. Tongsheng has apparently made several other improvements vs the original TSDZ2 and "B" version (which doesn't appear to me to have any significant advantage over the non-B version). AliExpress for less than $300 including shipping, somewhat more on ebay. Downside is that it is significantly heavier at ~13# including cranks and chainring vs 8.75# total (measured by me with a hanging scale) for the TSDZ2. I already have too much stuff so not interested, especially with the heavy weight, but it might be a good solution for someone looking for a torque sensing high powered mid drive DIY solution vs the much more expensive CYC and the reportedly buggy ToSeven.

TSDZ8 review and TSDZ2 OSF comparison (TSDZ8 vs TSDZ2 OSF)

ebikestuff.eu

Tongsheng TSDZ8 750W 48V teardown, disassembly

ebikestuff.eu

 

[harryS]

Seems like the odds of a working DM02, even purchased from a US seller is less than 50%. At least it was the peripheral stuff that didn't work, and you got them replaced quick, I don't mind rolling the dice on a DM02, but don't have a candidate bike, nor the room for it either, Maybe next year after I get rid of a few bikes.

We have put a lot of miles this year on our TSDZ2 conversions, but only because of the OSF firmware. With stock firmware, I had to go to Turbo mode to feel any assist, OSF moves the power band down to lower pedal pressure which transforms the riding for me. In turn, that got me into better condition, so I stay in Eco mode. My wife's bike is set up for cadence mode. The torque sense must still work because it starts fast, In any event, she likes her TSDZ2 better than her hub motor which had twice the power, because of its quick start.

I do dislike hooking up my laptop to my bikes and playing with settings. If it's a necessary evil, OK, but I'll be waiting on the DM02 if they're still in beta firmware,

 

[knightrider]

Seems like the odds of a working DM02, even purchased from a US seller is less than 50%. At least it was the peripheral stuff that didn't work, and you got them replaced quick, I don't mind rolling the dice on a DM02, but don't have a candidate bike, nor the room for it either, Maybe next year after I get rid of a few bikes.

We have put a lot of miles this year on our TSDZ2 conversions, but only because of the OSF firmware. With stock firmware, I had to go to Turbo mode to feel any assist, OSF moves the power band down to lower pedal pressure which transforms the riding for me. In turn, that got me into better condition, so I stay in Eco mode. My wife's bike is set up for cadence mode. The torque sense must still work because it starts fast, In any event, she likes her TSDZ2 better than her hub motor which had twice the power, because of its quick start.

I do dislike hooking up my laptop to my bikes and playing with settings. If it's a necessary evil, OK, but I'll be waiting on the DM02 if they're still in beta firmware,

Yea the 50% rating on the to seven might be about right. It is a shame as the competition is light yrs. ahead of the to seven in reliability. The biggest short coming for me is the lack of willingness on the part of manufacture to properly address problems. I was so optimistic as the price was right. Oh well ! I will say that Johnny N/O, whom I got mine from, has been good to send me replacement parts. Owner reaching out to manufacture is a joke. I think their reputation will be short lived if they don`t change.

 

[JRA]

Got Duped.....

 

[JRA]

Since getting my Z1 I haven't paid much attention to DIY options but bitd I did have some good experiences with the TSDZ2, I guess better than most did perhaps? Anyway I am a bit sad that the new TongShen is heavier and most of all still using a square taper bb spindle. Once in awhile I consider building up a hardtail project bike that would be substantially lighter than my current bike for riding in the hood as I did so for quite a few years to begin with, but I'll be passing on the ones mentioned here I guess.

 

[EMGX]

I just put my unused TSDZ2 with the standard 42t 5mm dished chainring on a 20" folder that has 11-34 freewheel. As always the chainline was bad on the largest rear cog but having a 42t 10mm offset narrow-wide aftermarket chainring I replaced the OEM with that instead. The chainline significantly improved but on the 34t rear cog the NW chainring wanted to walk the chain and drop it off due to the short chain distance from the chainring to the rear cog. This didn't happen with the stamped OEM even though it only had 5mm offset because the narrow teeth didn't cause the chain to climb off. I made a chain guide out of some parts box stuff that I have sitting around. Now no chain drop and the guide only has very minimal contact with the chain, and only on the 34t cog - being stopped from climbing off the chainring as soon as it wants to start.

 

[PedalUma]

I just put my unused TSDZ2 with the standard 42t 5mm dished chainring on a 20" folder that has 11-34 freewheel. As always the chainline was bad on the largest rear cog but having a 42t 10mm offset narrow-wide aftermarket chainring I replaced the OEM with that instead. The chainline significantly improved but on the 34t rear cog the NW chainring wanted to walk the chain and drop it off due to the short chain distance from the chainring to the rear cog. This didn't happen with the stamped OEM even though it only had 5mm offset because the narrow teeth didn't cause the chain to climb off. I made a chain guide out of some parts box stuff that I have sitting around. Now no chain drop and the guide only has very minimal contact with the chain, and only on the 34t cog - being stopped from climbing off the chainring as soon as it wants to start.

The chain guide on a BBS02 build I did a tune on today was the battery. As soon as I saw the motor I checked the chain. Sure enough. It also had loops of wires and a lose motor that crushed the shift housing routed between the motor and downtube.

 

[m@Robertson]

I run the standard kmc chains on bbshd, x1 cyc, to seven and everthing else I build. Prefer the micro shift 9 with the sunrace cassette reconfigured for good chain lines. Never broken a chain. Chain line is the secret to reliability on diy bikes. The factory rigs are designed around the good chain lines. The home brew ones aren`t. This is the reason I give up the half stepping gears to obtain a clean chain line. I usually end up with 6 speeds. The cross chaining is what is breaking your chain not the straight line pull.

I've never broken a chain, either, across many bikes, miles, years etc. I do always carry a spare though. The whole chain not just a few links. And a breaker and a pair of pliers. I've spent too much time sitting roadside fixing things I never expected to break, to settle on half-measures.

I got a look at the Microshift H113 11s cluster and was pleased to see it is fully pinned together, and all steel except for the big 46T cog, which I can live with. The biggest cog is also piggybacked onto the next-biggest so its not as strong as a Sunrace CSMS7. BUT... I can't find a CSMS7 in its new 46T size so the Microshift will have to do.

I usually do a little better than 6 gears. My 10s Bullitt has 9 out of 10, with 7 being what I consider to be long-term acceptable. But it took a few tries.

I had settled on the top config, but switching to the Luna on the front shifted my sweet spot inboard which better suits my riding. The 11T went to a big maybe (that I never use) and the 48T became usable but I haven't felt a need to do so and put that kind of wear on the chain.

A lot of the room you have to work with is tied to your chainstay length. The Bullitt has short stays and sharp angles happen as a result. My Big Fat Dummy longtail, on the other hand, with a 180-link chain, can easily use all 11 cogs without issue, and I don't even need an offset chainring.

 

[knightrider]

Yea I can run 11& 12 speeds on long stay bikes with no problem. My cargo mid tail has no issues with big cassettes. The chain line issues seem to give some of these guys fits until they figure it out. I run 6 cogs on my full sys. bike with the cyc x1 pro. Plenty of power and never a chaining problem. Now the open drive is another issue with sticks getting in the chains up front. 10-4 on the spares and tools. Up in the mtns. with a broken part is no fun.

 

[PedalUma]

I had to work on a Jetson 'bike' today. It was pre-billed $40 labor only as a rear tire change on a hub-drive bike. 1) There is no connector between the controller and the motor, so you need to work on the wheel upside down while it dangles by the wire. 2) The caliper sits behind the wheel so needs to be removed to pull the wheel from the rear horizontal dropouts. 3) The chainguard needs to be removed. 4) The right pedal needs to be removed because the crank is too short to fit a puller. 5) The crank and ring need to be removed to get off the chain because the stays are like 17 inches long with no play. 6) The chain with 20 months of WD-40 tar needs to be removed. 7) Then the tensioner can be loosened and the wheel dropped. 8) Then there is dealing with all the slime from a failed roadside attempt. 9) The new factory tube had a faulty valve, so replace the valve, and the stem is up against the disc so there is almost no logical way to pump it and also remove the frame pump from the valve before it re-deflates the third time. This particular one also had a highly warped rotor because someone tried and failed to remove the wheel without removing the caliper first. 10) The tensioner is on the right side only so it makes the disc go sideways. Oh, I have not heard back from To7 and may be out the money for a dud new motor.

Moral: Never throw your wallet at a steaming pile of dog crap. Get yourself a real bike. And just say, NO to a Jetson!

 

[Ken Shopken]

I had to work on a Jetson 'bike' today. It was pre-billed $40 labor only as a rear tire change on a hub-drive bike. 1) There is no connector between the controller and the motor, so you need to work on the wheel upside down while it dangles by the wire. 2) The caliper sits behind the wheel so needs to be removed to pull the wheel from the rear horizontal dropouts. 3) The chainguard needs to be removed. 4) The right pedal needs to be removed because the crank is too short to fit a puller. 5) The crank and ring need to be removed to get off the chain because the stays are like 17 inches long with no play. 6) The chain with 20 months of WD-40 tar needs to be removed. 7) Then the tensioner can be loosened and the wheel dropped. 8) Then there is dealing with all the slime from a failed roadside attempt. 9) The new factory tube had a faulty valve, so replace the valve, and the stem is up against the disc so there is almost no logical way to pump it and also remove the frame pump from the valve before it re-deflates the third time. This particular one also had a highly warped rotor because someone tried and failed to remove the wheel without removing the caliper first. 10) The tensioner is on the right side only so it makes the disc go sideways. Oh, I have not heard back from To7 and may be out the money for a dud new motor.

Moral: Never throw your wallet at a steaming pile of dog crap. Get yourself a real bike. And just say, NO to a Jetson!
View attachment 181153 View attachment 181154

What a repair shop s*it storm.. This sort of circus happens on motorcycle and automotive repair tickets too, where you step on a grenade and trip on the pin, sometimes costing days of misery and gold. Oem, neglect / abuse or hacker causes.. angered tool gods or sunspots maybe.

It must cost Jetson a bit to deal with their own creations of unfortunate mechanical mayhem..

Hopefully JNO can help you out on the DM01. I am going to see if I can "rent" a programming cord for mine, as ToSeven is still not responding... So pathetic..

Images are an example of knowingly stepping on it... I repair a local pro hillclimbing groups bikes. Some of them are real messes, and I am called into action for issues they cannot solve themselves. This is the 3rd clutch on this R1 Yamaha powered monster, the last one liquified the aluminum plates when they used 2nd gear on a climb and sent aluminum and friction material into the oil pickup. They did manage the fastest pro climb of the day however...

Check out the rear brake line routing and connections... They have no fear of such things and no concern about it!

 

[Ken Shopken]

Additional issues with my DM01- when pushing the crankset a bit hard in a taller gear and or on a standing climb, the deflection of the chainwheel drive is a bit concerning. Noise is generated in the chain to sprocket as it wobbles a bit out of true. The sprag clutch will also do momentary skips on changes in crank load and make some unpleasant noises.

I realize that there are some significant engineering challenges with a single support bearing design, but this seems a bit excessive.

A peek inside...

 

[m@Robertson]

I think their reputation will be short lived if they don`t change.

I realize that there are some significant engineering challenges with a single support bearing design, but this seems a bit excessive.

Oh, I have not heard back from To7 and may be out the money for a dud new motor.

My experience with a Cyc X1 Pro told me I would not touch the Photon until its had two years in the market, and it turns out that was a good move. I said the same thing with ToSeven and sadly it doesn't look like we will need anywhere near that long to judge them.

 

[Ken Shopken]

I had to work on a Jetson 'bike' today. It was pre-billed $40 labor only as a rear tire change on a hub-drive bike. 1) There is no connector between the controller and the motor, so you need to work on the wheel upside down while it dangles by the wire. 2) The caliper sits behind the wheel so needs to be removed to pull the wheel from the rear horizontal dropouts. 3) The chainguard needs to be removed. 4) The right pedal needs to be removed because the crank is too short to fit a puller. 5) The crank and ring need to be removed to get off the chain because the stays are like 17 inches long with no play. 6) The chain with 20 months of WD-40 tar needs to be removed. 7) Then the tensioner can be loosened and the wheel dropped. 8) Then there is dealing with all the slime from a failed roadside attempt. 9) The new factory tube had a faulty valve, so replace the valve, and the stem is up against the disc so there is almost no logical way to pump it and also remove the frame pump from the valve before it re-deflates the third time. This particular one also had a highly warped rotor because someone tried and failed to remove the wheel without removing the caliper first. 10) The tensioner is on the right side only so it makes the disc go sideways. Oh, I have not heard back from To7 and may be out the money for a dud new motor.

Moral: Never throw your wallet at a steaming pile of dog crap. Get yourself a real bike. And just say, NO to a Jetson!
View attachment 181153 View attachment 181154

My experience with a Cyc X1 Pro told me I would not touch the Photon until its had two years in the market, and it turns out that was a good move. I said the same thing with ToSeven and sadly it doesn't look like we will need anywhere near that long to judge them.

Good advice.

The complete lack of available service parts or even a digital owners / shop manual were warnings as well.

I knew better, but bit anyway.

 

[PedalUma]

They contacted me with an overnight email. They gave me three reasonable options including a refund. I will field disable and document that with the photos and the serial number bar or qr. I knew @m@Robertson's perspective going in and respect it. Yet I was willing to get out front on this learning curve. Leaders are not necessarily victors when taking a hill. They are the earlier ones. I also kept to the lower power motor on purpose. We are in for ten hours working on one guy's new bike and his dud warranty replacement bike. Specialized is paying, but he has had the bike for 5 weeks with only two days out of the shop. He will demand a refund from the dealer, $4500. I packed a Velotric Discover today to ship to the factory for replacement. It is two years old but never worked and was direct to consumer with no support. So, the brand new Discover 2 arrives for him next week.

 

[linklemming]

I knew @m@Robertson's perspective going in and respect it. Yet I was willing to get out front on this learning curve. Leaders are not necessarily victors when taking a hill.

I was aware of such issues being an early adopter of the DM01 and was willing to take the risk, whats the fun of blindly following someone else, that would make you a lemming . I really didnt see the bad chainline thing coming though, totally caught me offguard. I was in the final stages of mounting it when I decided to try the chainring and was sure I had done something wrong. IMHO, if your willing to loose the lowest two gears it might work for you for chainrings of 42t or lower. There is a nub on the housing for the pinion gear (small gear that drives the larger gear) that rubs. This would be an issue even with a lekkie 42t setup if its ever produced. 44t+ might be fine but wont work on my Surly Ogres(42t max on a 1x setup) as I require the complete gear range. I will sell it locally.

I have never used a BBSHD without the lekkie 42t chainring so maybe the BBSHD with stock chainring has a bad chainline as well.

I was also an early adopter of the CYC photon and this worked out well for me. Its by far the best DIY setup as far as overall quality and torque sensing feel although the BBSHD beats it on overall power. As good as the BBSHD is, its not torque sensing. My first DIY setup was a Grin GMAC with torque sensor followed by a BBSHD. At one point I converted the GMAC to a BBSHD and had two BBSHD bikes for about 4 months. While this was doable I converted one of them back to the torque sensing(erider) GMAC and it was like night and day feelwise compared to the BBSHD. Despite all the bad press by the 'high voltage channel' on youtube, I decided to try the CYC photon.

Its obvious to me that the 'high voltage channel' on youtube has a grudge against CYC and the photon. As can be seen from his videos, he likes to ride around on throttle only and sells BBSHD 72V kits so thats his perspective. The CYC photon was never designed for that(20mph+ up 10% grades on throttle only), it was designed to be a DIY equivalent to factory mid-drives like bosch, brose etc. Im a huge brose fan (all my factory ebikes(2 at the moment, 4 total) have been brose). At one point he 'tried' to compare the CYC photon the the DM02 and his bottom line was the DM02 was 90% of the Photon as far as torque feel (which I completely disagree with) and that ToSeven was 'willing' to work with modders (whatever that means).

In my case, I replaced my 52V GMAC 10T/phaserunner setup with a CYC photon and get better performance with the CYC both in overall efficiency, average speed and thermal characteristics. Overall over hundreds of rides the CYC is better/more efficient and lighter than the GMAC which is an AWESOME setup around here. i have not ridden one mile on my GMAC setup after going to the CYC photon and I rode the GMAC setup for over two years (10k miles +, typically 25 miles with 1500+ elevation gain))

While I agree the photon is probably not best for mr robertson, I dont understand how he is so negative on something he has no experience with directly