ST5 vs Riese & Muller mid drive for hills

[bluecat]

The FS bike looks like a bike I would be interested in if it has the EP8 motor (85nm). That is the one I would call the sports car. Not the Stromer

I agree, you can call a plane to be a boat, a car to be a submarine or a bicycle to be a rocket. That's all covered by your freedom of speech. On the other end, which vehicle fits best for what transportation demand, is defined by the physics.

To make communication easier, I prefer the most common terms for all kind of vehicles.

 

[Alunare]

I was getting frustrated going up the steep hill back to my house on the ST5. It was so much harder to get up that hill on the ST5 than on my R&M Superdelite HS Rohloff. What confused me about this is the Strommer is much faster and has far better acceleration than the Superdelite, so why is it so weak on the steep hill? I read and re-read @bluecat's statement above and finally understood it. With the Superdelite, you can simply put it into a granny gear and pedal with little effort up the hill. That does *not* work well on the ST5. On the ST5 you need to get up off the seat and put your full weight into the pedaling, and then the bike *flies* up the hill, far faster and in a higher gear than the Superdelite. Now I understand. And it is indeed rewarding and awesome fun!

Thank you !!!! This is exactly what I've experienced as well. Your description is perfect.

 

[AbeK]

This is more of a marketing garbage than true scientific data.
If you are not starting from a dead stop, hub motors climb just as well without stressing the drive train.If you have some momentum going, hub motors work just as well.
Mid-drives shine only in technical mountain biking terrain.

I suggest you rent an R-M E-bike from this dealer you for a day and see how you like it.

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Then, go and test ride an ST5 or St2-S from dealer near you.

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

If you don't have lot of real world data, it's very easy to push you into any direction I want. Nothing really beats a good test ride. I suggest you rent it for a day.

I once did 24,000 ft of total elevation in a span of 24 hours. if I pushed any mid-drive into that kind of speed and climbing, I would end up replacing the chain or cassette every month. Also, most drives operate at 36V compared to most hub drivess at 48V or 52V. Once you a ride a powerful bike like a ST5 or Juiced CCX , you will find that most other mid-drives are anemic. I am not sure how fit you are. A 30's something, fit man could manage well on either drives.

Just watched this. Wow! 19,000 calories. I’m guessing you went through more batteries than meals on that journey.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

19,000 calories. I’m guessing you went through more batteries than meals on that journey.

I guess that number is incorrect!
it's more like ~12,000 calories. I was exhausted by the end of the ride and the tricky part is that you can't eat a lot when you are riding. It makes you heavy and sluggish.
It was my first ~300+ mile ride and I had used up 6 charges and was on 7th.
So, 814Whr pack for every 50 miles. So, 4700 KCal of battery. if it was a mid-drive, the drivetrain would be under tremendous stress. That is why when folks who have never ridden a good hub drive, start commenting on it, it makes me super annoyed. Hope you are enjoying your ST5.

 

[Insider]

I was getting frustrated going up the steep hill back to my house on the ST5. It was so much harder to get up that hill on the ST5 than on my R&M Superdelite HS Rohloff. What confused me about this is the Strommer is much faster and has far better acceleration than the Superdelite, so why is it so weak on the steep hill? I read and re-read @bluecat's statement above and finally understood it. With the Superdelite, you can simply put it into a granny gear and pedal with little effort up the hill. That does *not* work well on the ST5. On the ST5 you need to get up off the seat and put your full weight into the pedaling, and then the bike *flies* up the hill, far faster and in a higher gear than the Superdelite. Now I understand. And it is indeed rewarding and awesome fun!

It's a little bit counter intuitive. For me, when I want more assist on my ST5, I'd have drop 1 or 2 smaller cog.
I don't need to stand on the pedals, just learn to apply enough torque to singal the bike to offer full assist.

 

[bluecat]

f it was a mid-drive, the drivetrain would be under tremendous stress. That is why when folks who have never ridden a good hub drive, start commenting on it, it makes me super annoyed

I call this the "Ferrari-discussion"

You'll find it in the comment section of newspapers as well as in forums. People debating about the the performance, the tire consumption, the limit range in corners and more of a high end sports car. But non of theses experts owns a Ferrari or has ever driven one.

Sometimes, I oppose against it, sometimes I just watch the goings-on...

 

[Johnny]

I guess that number is incorrect!
it's more like ~12,000 calories. I was exhausted by the end of the ride and the tricky part is that you can't eat a lot when you are riding. It makes you heavy and sluggish.
It was my first ~300+ mile ride and I had used up 6 charges and was on 7th.
So, 814Whr pack for every 50 miles. So, 4700 KCal of battery. if it was a mid-drive, the drivetrain would be under tremendous stress. That is why when folks who have never ridden a good hub drive, start commenting on it, it makes me super annoyed. Hope you are enjoying your ST5.

Your rides are inspiring Ravi.

For the past week, I have done 2 nice climbs with Stromer(and 5 smaller climbs).

I would like to talk about a 29mile circuit. Start around shoreline, climb and pass Monte Bella preserve then back. the elevation gain is around 2250feet.

I did this climb with a normal bike and my bosch cx mid drive previously. Of course I was slower on my regular bike but I have a 2x drivetrain that keeps me at a comfortable cadence. On my bosch CX I have installed a 20T chainring and my maximum cog is 36 hence it is quite limited. So on my cross I have to go a bit fast to keep a comfortable cadence hence I use tour , it is nice but I pretty much cap the motor so going above tour gives me no additional boost.
I should also state that for the past several months I have been riding only for fitness. I regularly take all my bikes, including Stromer, and do shorter %20 climbs everyday.

Back to the recent Stromer climbs,

-So the first climb was not fun. My quads hurt and I had to get out of the saddle. Although I was not gassed and I still managed to climb fast enough, it was not fun and I had to use setting 3 frequently.

Next day did a smaller climb, including a couple of shorter %20 percent grades(I had to use level 3). Well, I realized that at an average grade around %13 (it varies between %11 to %20), my speed was way lower than before. I am still feeling like I am putting in the effort (mind you, in those short climbs I can push around 350-400W).

Went home. I calculated my input, how much the motor will supply( I really like Grin's simulator), added weight penalty etc. and still something was off. Moreover I was much faster before on similar climbs. Needless to say I am frustrated.

Next day, did a smaller climb, this time used more support so that I was fresh when I came to the steep section. I tried not to push too hard, checking my breathing as a guide, once again I was way slower, 7-9mph. I stopped half way and decided to play with the settings to see if I can make a difference. When I checked Torque sensitivity I saw that it went back to %50 again!. I don't know why it dialed back to %50. Cranked it up to full. I completed the second half at 13mph!!! (And I think I can push more). This happened before but since I was doing on ok the lesser grades I always thought everything was fine hence didn't check...

Back to today's climb. Since I identified the problem, today I did the 2250 feet climb again. What a difference!!! I was in setting 2 (2 is custom set to Tour in the menu hence it is not very powerful, the standard setting is too much) I enjoyed every bit of the climb. This has got to be the one of the most fun climbs I have had on an ebike.

On the way back I was feeling great so did two smaller %20 climbs on top. I managed to do both climbs on mode 1 (Eco on Stromer)!!! I never thought I would be able to but well I did it. And it was not bad(I wouldn't call it easy, it is still a challenge, but it was not very hard, I was enjoying both of the climbs). I didn't need to get out of the saddle, I was not gassed at the top. Maybe because I had to push more in the past two weeks (because of the torque settings) my fitness level increased but still so nice to see that this is doable.

Some statistics,
total distance ~29 miles,
total ascent ~ 2400 feet
Total battery consumed ~ %34 (1kw battery)
Also I recouped %6 back on the descent (I think previously I got back %8 once) which is really nice.

That is not bad at all. I remember consuming around %80 on my Bosch CX (powerpack 400 ) for a similar ride which is very close to Stromer (maybe a little less consumption).

Overall I am very happy and this thing can climb. Another ride where my experience is similar to what Ravi said.

Unfortunately ebikes are not allowed on the trails.

.




Note: I am not saying one should buy a Stromer to climb %20, we have explained pros and cons countless number of times. If you need to constantly climb grades of %20+ get a mid drive and a wide cassette.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Back to today's climb. Since I identified the problem, today I did the 2250 feet climb again. What a difference!!! I was in setting 2 (2 is custom set to Tour in the menu hence it is not very powerful, the standard setting is too much) I enjoyed every bit of the climb. This has got to be the one of the most fun climbs I have had on an ebike.

That is great!
Tuning the Assist level 2 makes a marked difference. Glad you are enjoying the rides/climbs.
Did you also get the suspension fork installed?

 

[Johnny]

That is great!
Tuning the Assist level 2 makes a marked difference. Glad you are enjoying the rides/climbs.
Did you also get the suspension fork installed?

I did, You can somewhat see it in the picture. It is the best suspension fork for a speed oriented bike.

The difference was the torque sensitivity setting, I think I have an idea on what is going on but I will think about it a bit more.

 

[AbeK]

I did, You can somewhat see it in the picture. It is the best suspension fork for a speed oriented bike.

The difference was the torque sensitivity setting, I think I have an idea on what is going on but I will think about it a bit more.

I cranked up the torque level all the way up on my ST5 also, though I wish there were a way to set custom torque levels independently for each assist mode (i.e. 1, 2, 3 and S). At the end of my rides, I have a steep hill that I must climb to get home where I really need the full max torque level on assist level S. But most of the rest of my rides are relatively flat where I use assist mode 2 and the added torque setting is overkill. It would be nice to have 2 with 70% torque, for example, and S with 100%. On the new Bosch motors you can set custom modes (there's a small onetime fee to enable it, $5.00 if I recall correctly), and they replace eco, sport, turbo, etc. The feature allows you to customize the assist level for each mode. It's pretty cool and would be a nice feature on the Stromer.

 

[Johnny]

I cranked up the torque level all the way up on my ST5 also, though I wish there were a way to set custom torque levels independently for each assist mode (i.e. 1, 2, 3 and S). At the end of my rides, I have a steep hill that I must climb to get home where I really need the full max torque level on assist level S. But most of the rest of my rides are relatively flat where I use assist mode 2 and the added torque setting is overkill. It would be nice to have 2 with 70% torque, for example, and S with 100%. On the new Bosch motors you can set custom modes (there's a small onetime fee to enable it, $5.00 if I recall correctly), and they replace eco, sport, turbo, etc. The feature allows you to customize the assist level for each mode. It's pretty cool and would be a nice feature on the Stromer.

I agree that they could have made several custom levels like 2. I don't know why they limit you to only one custom setting.
Moreover they don't really explain what agility, torque, etc. actually mean. Torque in the custom modes refers to the assistance level but this is not the right way of putting it in.

In my post I was talking about the Sensitivity setting(it is under the sensor). Have you actually cranked it up? If not I highly recommend you to do so.

It seems to control the how much the sensor input smoothed(It is not about the assistance level). At %100 the motor seem to react instantly to pedal input. (I am planning to open a thread on this since it drastically affects the rides on uphills)

Bosch for example only let's you adjust assistance percentage wrt speed (Actually Stromer is more configurable on setting 2 since it has separate torque and agility settings). You can not do any other adjustments such as sensor sentivity or put a power bound on maximum power/torque supplied. Specialized and Shimano actually have better custom modes where you can play with those values too.

 

[bluecat]

At the end of my rides, I have a steep hill that I must climb to get home where I really need the full max torque level on assist level S. But most of the rest of my rides are relatively flat where I use assist mode 2 and the added torque setting is overkill.

The name "torque" in the setting for (2) is a bad choice- as torque and power are bound to each other and cannot be separately changed.

Your experience showed the weakness of the sensor setting concept. Its value is an overall value, so as you said, just for climbing the hill, you need the 100% setting. But for all other parts of your ride, 50% or 75% setting might be sufficient. With the 100% setting, you get an unseless high energy consumption - which limits the range.

I suggested to the Stromer engineers, to keep the overall concept for assist levels 1,2 and 3 but programming the level S as an "all in" with 100% settings on al values. They see the point, but not giving priority to develop it...

 

[AbeK]

I agree that they could have made several custom levels like 2. I don't know why they limit you to only one custom setting.
Moreover they don't really explain what agility, torque, etc. actually mean. Torque in the custom modes refers to the assistance level but this is not the right way of putting it in.

In my post I was talking about the Sensitivity setting(it is under the sensor). Have you actually cranked it up? If not I highly recommend you to do so.

It seems to control the how much the sensor input smoothed(It is not about the assistance level). At %100 the motor seem to react instantly to pedal input. (I am planning to open a thread on this since it drastically affects the rides on uphills)

Bosch for example only let's you adjust assistance percentage wrt speed (Actually Stromer is more configurable on setting 2 since it has separate torque and agility settings). You can not do any other adjustments such as sensor sentivity or put a power bound on maximum power/torque supplied. Specialized and Shimano actually have better custom modes where you can play with those values too.

Johnny, yes, I have the sensitivity setting cranked up all the way. As a new Stromer rider, however, it’s confusing to understand the tuning options. The user guide is only somewhat helpful, and outside of these forums there is no technical documentation that explains the principles of what these settings actually mean and do.

There’s the “sensitivity” setting on the bike, and there are “sensors” and “motor tuning“ settings in the OMNI app (which are presumably only for assist mode 2). There are pedal and brake sensors, and there is speed, torque and agility tuning. I have them all cranked up to the maximum, because, well, I want my bike to be fast and responsive But I’m also getting less range than I expected.

Riding in mode 1 feels like I’m pedaling with the brakes on, so I nearly always ride in mode 2, and only switch to 3 and S on steep hills. With everything cranked up all the way on mode 2, I still feel a difference when I switch to mode 3, though I can’t say I notice much if any difference between 3 and S. I think that I could extend the battery/range by pulling back on some settings in the Omni app’s sensor or tuning parameters, but which ones? Pedal sensor? Speed? Torque? Agility?

What I’d ideally like is for mode 2, on relatively flat roads, to require a bit more effort on my part, but still be able to ride at maximum speed and have rapid acceleration on restart after coming to a stop. Do I adjust torque, speed, agility? Pedal sensor?

 

[AbeK]

The name "torque" in the setting for (2) is a bad choice- as torque and power are bound to each other and cannot be separately changed.

Your experience showed the weakness of the sensor setting concept. Its value is an overall value, so as you said, just for climbing the hill, you need the 100% setting. But for all other parts of your ride, 50% or 75% setting might be sufficient. With the 100% setting, you get an unseless high energy consumption - which limits the range.

I suggested to the Stromer engineers, to keep the overall concept for assist levels 1,2 and 3 but programming the level S as an "all in" with 100% settings on al values. They see the point, but not giving priority to develop it...

Yes, your suggestion makes sense
And it could all be done with a firmware or software update, I would presume.

 

[Johnny]

Riding in mode 1 feels like I’m pedaling with the brakes on, so I nearly always ride in mode 2, and only switch to 3 and S on steep hills. With everything cranked up all the way on mode 2, I still feel a difference when I switch to mode 3, though I can’t say I notice much if any difference between 3 and S. I think that I could extend the battery/range by pulling back on some settings in the Omni app’s sensor or tuning parameters, but which ones? Pedal sensor? Speed? Torque? Agility?

That feeling you describe may be a result of riding on higher support levels most of the time, when you are used to those, turning down the support will feel as if you are riding against a wind or braking. You can try it on your RM too, if you always use tour or sport , once you turn down to eco you will feel like it is dragging.
I think the sensitivity setting is the same as pedal sensor setting in the app(I should check). That seems to control the response to the pedal input. High sensitivity gave me immediate response , when I lowered it the response builds up smoothly but slowly.
Maybe in one of your rides you can also play with the sensitivity setting and tell how you feel?

I ride in mode 1 a lot. Finally yesterday I rode up a %20 hill in mode 1!. That is quite steep and if I was not getting support , making up on that hill would have been a very big challenge, if possible at all. I turned the support off to feel the difference and it is very significant even in mode 1.

 

[Alanzo]

Stromer is quite the beautiful bike. There is dealer in Naperville and I am always tempted to take a test ride but I am afraid of making a purchase beyond my financial capacity. I currently ride a R&M Delite dual suspension.

I ride on the roads with vehicle traffic. At times I have to do a hard brake. With dual suspension on the Delite I've not had loss of traction or rear tire slide. As if the dual suspension absorbs the force of a hard brake at speed.

I am curious about control of a ST5 during a hard brake situation. Hoping to hear from Stromer riders with their experience when control was critical.

 

[AbeK]

Stromer is quite the beautiful bike. There is dealer in Naperville and I am always tempted to take a test ride but I am afraid of making a purchase beyond my financial capacity. I currently ride a R&M Delite dual suspension.

I ride on the roads with vehicle traffic. At times I have to do a hard brake. With dual suspension on the Delite I've not had loss of traction or rear tire slide. As if the dual suspension absorbs the force of a hard brake at speed.

I am curious about control of a ST5 during a hard brake situation. Hoping to hear from Stromer riders with their experience when control was critical.

I have both of those bikes (ST5 and Superdelite). I generally ride on similar, traffic-laden types of streets like you, and hard stops are pretty common. On a hard stop, the ST5 sometimes locks up the rear wheel and it does a bit of a sideways slide, but I’ve never felt or feared a loss of control. The ST5 stops really fast and generally by time I sense the slide I’ve already started to let up on the brakes.

I’ve never had a locked-up wheel experience with the Superdelite, but without question, I prefer my ST5 when I’m riding for transportation (to get from point A to point B), and choose the Superdelite when I’m riding for leisure. The Superdelite has a cushy, slow and steady ride experience that’s perfect for comfortable, leisurely rides. The ST5 has incredible agility and speed that is perfect for riding where fast response handling is important. It’s more like a sports car, while the Superdelite is like an SUV. The ST5‘s suspension is much tighter than the Superdelite’s, but still provides enough comfort without sacrificing responsiveness.

My wife rides an R&M Homage, and when I ride with her I usually take my Superdelite because the ST5 would leave her far behind. The ST5 just wants to go fast and hard. When I ride alone, I always take my ST5 because it is a thrill to ride and much more fun than the Superdelite.

You won’t go wrong with either bike, you just have to decide what style of ride you prefer as they are quite different. In my case, if I had to live with one bike, it would be, without question, the ST5. For a guy already into my 60’s, I still enjoy the thrill that the ST5 delivers.

 

[AbeK]

There’s finally a good explanation from Stromer of the ST5 sensor settings in the Omni app and what they actually do.

 

[Johnny]

I have both of those bikes (ST5 and Superdelite). I generally ride on similar, traffic-laden types of streets like you, and hard stops are pretty common. On a hard stop, the ST5 sometimes locks up the rear wheel and it does a bit of a sideways slide, but I’ve never felt or feared a loss of control. The ST5 stops really fast and generally by time I sense the slide I’ve already started to let up on the brakes.

I’ve never had a locked-up wheel experience with the Superdelite, but without question, I prefer my ST5 when I’m riding for transportation (to get from point A to point B), and choose the Superdelite when I’m riding for leisure. The Superdelite has a cushy, slow and steady ride experience that’s perfect for comfortable, leisurely rides. The ST5 has incredible agility and speed that is perfect for riding where fast response handling is important. It’s more like a sports car, while the Superdelite is like an SUV. The ST5‘s suspension is much tighter than the Superdelite’s, but still provides enough comfort without sacrificing responsiveness.

My wife rides an R&M Homage, and when I ride with her I usually take my Superdelite because the ST5 would leave her far behind. The ST5 just wants to go fast and hard. When I ride alone, I always take my ST5 because it is a thrill to ride and much more fun than the Superdelite.

You won’t go wrong with either bike, you just have to decide what style of ride you prefer as they are quite different. In my case, if I had to live with one bike, it would be, without question, the ST5. For a guy already into my 60’s, I still enjoy the thrill that the ST5 delivers.

Completely agree with all of these.

On very hard braking rear wheel can slide. It happened to me too(a car coming on the opposite direction turned left on me), but each one of those I never lost control. That being said I think it can be prevented by getting used to the brakes and adjusting the modulation. While Pirelli tires are amazing on the pavement, on loose ground it doesn't have much traction.

I am not sure if dual suspension is a big factor in preventing sliding at hard brakes. I think tires make a bigger difference.

Which tires do you have on your Delite?

 

[Alanzo]

I have both of those bikes (ST5 and Superdelite). I generally ride on similar, traffic-laden types of streets like you, and hard stops are pretty common. On a hard stop, the ST5 sometimes locks up the rear wheel and it does a bit of a sideways slide, but I’ve never felt or feared a loss of control. The ST5 stops really fast and generally by time I sense the slide I’ve already started to let up on the brakes.

I’ve never had a locked-up wheel experience with the Superdelite, but without question, I prefer my ST5 when I’m riding for transportation (to get from point A to point B), and choose the Superdelite when I’m riding for leisure. The Superdelite has a cushy, slow and steady ride experience that’s perfect for comfortable, leisurely rides. The ST5 has incredible agility and speed that is perfect for riding where fast response handling is important. It’s more like a sports car, while the Superdelite is like an SUV. The ST5‘s suspension is much tighter than the Superdelite’s, but still provides enough comfort without sacrificing responsiveness.

My wife rides an R&M Homage, and when I ride with her I usually take my Superdelite because the ST5 would leave her far behind. The ST5 just wants to go fast and hard. When I ride alone, I always take my ST5 because it is a thrill to ride and much more fun than the Superdelite.

You won’t go wrong with either bike, you just have to decide what style of ride you prefer as they are quite different. In my case, if I had to live with one bike, it would be, without question, the ST5. For a guy already into my 60’s, I still enjoy the thrill that the ST5 delivers.

Thanks for your feedback. I have a question with your ST5. When you pedal at a 28+ mph pace do you notice much resistance with the crank turnover?

Reason I am asking is I ride with traffic all the time. I have to be at 30 mph+ to access turn lanes at stop lights with vehicles approaching in the rear. When I am at 28 mph on the Delite the resistance of the cranks is similar to a 103 gear ratio going up an incline grade on a non e-bike. Its counter productive large gear mashing. This is not what I expected to happen prior to purchasing the Delite a couple years ago.

Hoping to know what real world speed you have experienced on the ST5 while riding with traffic. Your explaining of the rear wheel with hard stop on your ST5 is very helpful.