Rad law suit

[Gionnirocket]

it’s an interesting question. if it wasn’t an eBike, would they have even GOTTEN to the top of the hill in that configuration? a young girl with a passenger? i think not. would they have done so with a 250w mid-drive? also probably not. whether the throttle mattered or not probably has more to do with the PAS settings than anything else, but kids LOVE things that go fast when you push buttons. IMO removing the requirement to pedal - and pedal HARD - to go up a steep hill greatly increases the chances of a kid going up said hill, and probably makes if possible to do so with a passenger.

around here kids do crazy s*it like ride skateboards in the road down 25% grades sitting on the board. do you know what limits the total risk? the fact that for every trip down you have to walk back up a steep f’n hill! add a motor and you get five times as many rides and five times the risk.

I have to disagree.
We did much of the same with minibikes, bicycles, skateboards, sleds, and hell even a big wheel and at that age and with unlimited energy the only thing that could have slowed us would have been if one of the gangs parents were aware.
Removing a throttle from an ebike because some kid may do dumb things is not going to solve anything.
Again show me one incident where a throttle added to the injury...
More aware parenting is where the answer lies. Keyed locks on power buttons is a much more effective answer.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Exactly and sadly my point. As every parent knows, kids go through a terrifying phase of new-found mobility with zero judgment at 1-2 years of age. Put pre-teens on an ebike with no adults watching, and it happens all over again.

... and there it is.
Try to solve the problem... throwing darts at the hardware is pretty pointless.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Again show me one incident where a throttle added to the injury...

Two words: Simon Cowell and his 2020 e-bike accident in his driveway. About the only way that accident could have happened is if he goosed the throttle of that dangerously overpowered and overweight bike.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Two words: Simon Cowell and his 2020 e-bike accident in his driveway. About the only way that accident could have happened is if he goosed the throttle of that dangerously overpowered and overweight bike.

Touché
But again.... if he had better parenting, would it have occurred?

 

[AHicks]

Two words: Simon Cowell and his 2020 e-bike accident in his driveway. About the only way that accident could have happened is if he goosed the throttle of that dangerously overpowered and overweight bike.

Hardly a typical example of an e-bike....

 

[mschwett]

I have to disagree.
We did much of the same with minibikes, bicycles, skateboards, sleds, and hell even a big wheel and at that age and with unlimited energy the only thing that could have slowed us would have been if one of the gangs parents were aware.
Removing a throttle from an ebike because some kid may do dumb things is not going to solve anything.
Again show me one incident where a throttle added to the injury...
More aware parenting is where the answer lies. Keyed locks on power buttons is a much more effective answer.

oh, absolutely, we did the same with whatever we could get our hands on. but none of those easily attainable things had motors, which is my point. the easy and cheap power made even easier by 500w at the push of a button expands the envelope, also including kids who aren’t the indestructible daredevil types, who tend to have evolved their juvenile superpower over years.

i would put the majority of the fault at the feet of the parents here. but perhaps not 100%

 

[harryS]

I got my hand caught in a wringer attachment on a washing machine when I was 4 or 5 years old, Mother hard my screams and popped the re;lease, That kind of set my whole outlook on life.
.
I almost did get killed this week, Riding my bike toward a crosswalk, where I would make a left turn and cross a parallel street, The crosswalk is posted that cars must stop for bikes/walkers. It's 25 mph, I look back and see a school bus way back there, a couple of hundred feet, Open sight lines. I can see him, H e ought to see me,. Damn idiot was going 50 mph, He covered that distance in the two seconds it took me to cross in front of him. Cleared him by less than a second.

 

[Slaphappygamer]

If I got an ebike for my kid, I might just unplug and remove the throttle. It’s actually quite easy. Just follow the wire and unplug it, then remove it from the handlebar.

What if maybe e-bikes came with the throttle left to be installed by the end user? Now a responsible parent has the option to install it, or not.

 

[Gionnirocket]

on absolutely, we did the same with whatever we could get our hands on. but none of those easily attainable things had motors, which is my point. the easy and cheap power made even easier by 500w at the push of a button expands the envelope, also including kids who aren’t the indestructible daredevil types, who tend to have evolved their juvenile superpower over years.

i would put the majority of the fault at the feet of the parents here. but perhaps not 100%

Ok I understand what you are saying but do you really think that a daredevil kid is going to be slowed by having to pedal along with the motor?
If anything you can go faster by adding your own power to that of the motor so maybe we should outlaw pedals.

 

[mschwett]

Ok I understand what you are saying but do you really think that a daredevil kid is going to be slowed by having to pedal along with the motor?
If anything you can go faster by adding your own power to that of the motor so maybe we should outlaw pedals.

i don't really think it's the daredevil kid that is going to be the problem/tragedy/disaster. that kid, as you note, will probably push the envelope on a regular bike. parents of such kids know that they're daredevils and either are indestructible or they learn to keep close tabs.

this morning after dropping my littlest one off at school, i rolled past two kids on some kind of eBikes (may have been rad.) neither of them were pedaling, nor were they paying much attention or riding very safely. neither looked like daredevils, bmx savants, etc. these are the kids who will get killed because an eBike allows them to do things they would never have been doing. before eBikes, those kids would 100% have been on the bus or in their parents cars, guaranteed. conversely, ever day i see the same half dozen kids going the other way (uphill lol) on standard MTB and Hybrid bikes who CLEARLY know what they're doing, are dressed appropriately, and are far more focused on what they're doing. again, not the eBike's fault, but the commitment required to actually pedal a bike uphill means something.

is that rad's fault? no. but are their parents fully aware of the risk? not sure. does rad's marketing and documentation of the product make it clear this is not OK? not sure. a car, for example, is very clear. you need keys, and everyone knows you need a license. ditto a moped, motorcycle, etc. ultimate responsibility for virtually everything a kid does lies with the parents, but the current situation is not sustainable, IMO. cut the power way back, require significant pedaling, and then it probably works for teenagers to be able to ride these things unlicensed, untrained, and uninsured. at that point, they're just bicycles. 750w with a throttle for a 100lb child by themselves on city streets is not safe. i believe most eBike makers state in various places that kids aren't to ride them, but it feels a bit like a wink wink nudge nudge to me.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

... these are the kids who will get killed because an eBike allows them to do things they would never have been doing. before eBikes, those kids would 100% have been on the bus or in their parents cars, guaranteed.

... the current situation is not sustainable, IMO. cut the power way back, require significant pedaling, and then it probably works for teenagers to be able to ride these things unlicensed, untrained, and uninsured. at that point, they're just bicycles. 750w with a throttle for a 100lb child by themselves on city streets is not safe.

Exactly why I fear that a throttle ban's headed my way — at least in a place swamped with kids on ebikes like mine. It would definitely have a positive public safety impact at low political cost.

Wish it weren't so, but pretty sure that to public safety officials, utility ebikers and geezers with bum knees would be acceptable collateral damage.

Important to remember that a driver who accidentally kills or seriously injures a kid doing something stupid in traffic will be scarred for life no matter what. And I see that kind of motorized 2-wheeled stupidity in traffic all the time now.

Many stakeholders here, including other cyclists of all kinds.

 

[m@Robertson]

Matt, I always value your perspectives.

And I always appreciate that its clear you think before you start typing, which is not something to be taken for granted on the internet.

I did zoom out from the particulars of this case. And I did it because

Honestly - and I think you may have heard me say this before, because it is certainly not the first time - I have been hearing gloomy proclamations about the future of ebiking since ebikes became a thing. And the net response has universally been to broaden their use and acceptance, from a legislative standpoint. Its been a take that has always been so off the mark I have gone to a standardized brushoff to it most times: "the sky is not falling". And I see no reason to change that assessment. Part of the reason is that, over the last few years as ebikes have spread into the mainstream... they have spread into the mainstream. As I said earlier, the toothpaste is already out of the tube. This is no longer a niche product. They are literally everywhere, and any sort of draconian regulation has zero chance of acceptance. By way of example... do you use the required hand signals when you turn and brake? Of course not nobody does (except for Karen and Pollyanna who are reaching for their keyboards right now ).

Ebikes are worming their way into the daily lives of millions. We'll see some much-needed maturity in the marketplace, enforced by the product liability lawsuit (and the personal lawsuit against someone who bought something awful on Ali because they still can). We'll see some minor regulatory stuff like battery standards... and thats going to be it. What will the exceptions be? City councils pandering to angry villagers. We get that now. Also the land use managers governing trails will be a patchwork of conflicting local decisions. But banning throttles? Never going to happen. Its a niche gripe that has far too many benefits and positives.

 

[m@Robertson]

IMO. cut the power way back, require significant pedaling,

This hamstrings the practical concept of the bicycle as an auto replacement. It eliminates one of the key tools in reducing auto traffic in dense urban areas. not to mention air quality improvements from reduced auto use. Just in the last thirty days we have seen three separate product launches of four new cargo bikes. None of these bikes are targeted at the youth market.

and then it probably works for teenagers to be able to ride these things unlicensed, untrained, and uninsured. at that point, they're just bicycles.

And at that point if they are just bicycles then whats the point of electric assist at all? This is sort of the classic adage about throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Its the wrong solution.

750w with a throttle for a 100lb child by themselves on city streets is not safe. i believe most eBike makers state in various places that kids aren't to ride them, but it feels a bit like a wink wink nudge nudge to me.

A kid can't drive a car (or rather they know not to). And we have cars everywhere. So its entirely possible to fence off dangerous products from a vulnerable population without destroying the utility of the product. I'm not advocating for drivers licenses for ebike riders, but clearly there is a solution to this problem - if it is serious enough to require a dramatic solution - that does not involve kneecapping an ebike's utility as day-to-day, routine transportation.

 

[mschwett]

This hamstrings the practical concept of the bicycle as an auto replacement. It eliminates one of the key tools in reducing auto traffic in dense urban areas. not to mention air quality improvements from reduced auto use. Just in the last thirty days we have seen three separate product launches of four new cargo bikes. None of these bikes are targeted at the youth market.

And at that point if they are just bicycles then whats the point of electric assist at all? This is sort of the classic adage about throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Its the wrong solution.

A kid can't drive a car (or rather they know not to). And we have cars everywhere. So its entirely possible to fence off dangerous products from a vulnerable population without destroying the utility of the product. I'm not advocating for drivers licenses for ebike riders, but clearly there is a solution to this problem - if it is serious enough to require a dramatic solution - that does not involve kneecapping an ebike's utility as day-to-day, routine transportation.

i’m not talking about some kind of blanket ban on powerful, robust e-bikes. those play a big role in getting people out of their cars, ridden by responsible adults. maybe licensing or registration should be required, give the things keys, allow municipalities to either explicitly permit or forbid them from trials and MUPs and bike lanes etc. that would keep kids from riding them.

in the context of children, i don’t quite get your argument that at 250w PAS there’s no point. a typical kid probably weighs 100lb or less and puts out 100w or so. 250w is a MASSIVE increase at that level. kids really do not need eBikes but if we want to make a category that they are allowed to ride, they should be more like the japanese standard. power cut off at low speed, maximum multiple of input power of 3x or something, no more than 250w PEAK.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

ridden by responsible adults

How do you determine they are "responsible"?

 

[Gionnirocket]

i don't really think it's the daredevil kid that is going to be the problem/tragedy/disaster. that kid, as you note, will probably push the envelope on a regular bike. parents of such kids know that they're daredevils and either are indestructible or they learn to keep close tabs.

this morning after dropping my littlest one off at school, i rolled past two kids on some kind of eBikes (may have been rad.) neither of them were pedaling, nor were they paying much attention or riding very safely. neither looked like daredevils, bmx savants, etc. these are the kids who will get killed because an eBike allows them to do things they would never have been doing. before eBikes, those kids would 100% have been on the bus or in their parents cars, guaranteed. conversely, ever day i see the same half dozen kids going the other way (uphill lol) on standard MTB and Hybrid bikes who CLEARLY know what they're doing, are dressed appropriately, and are far more focused on what they're doing. again, not the eBike's fault, but the commitment required to actually pedal a bike uphill means something.

is that rad's fault? no. but are their parents fully aware of the risk? not sure. does rad's marketing and documentation of the product make it clear this is not OK? not sure. a car, for example, is very clear. you need keys, and everyone knows you need a license. ditto a moped, motorcycle, etc. ultimate responsibility for virtually everything a kid does lies with the parents, but the current situation is not sustainable, IMO. cut the power way back, require significant pedaling, and then it probably works for teenagers to be able to ride these things unlicensed, untrained, and uninsured. at that point, they're just bicycles. 750w with a throttle for a 100lb child by themselves on city streets is not safe. i believe most eBike makers state in various places that kids aren't to ride them, but it feels a bit like a wink wink nudge nudge to me.

Sorry but I'm just of a different generation and I'm on the side of personal responsibility.
As a youngin many of us in my neighborhood had minibikes. Those that didn't rode their friends. Sometimes under supervision... sometimes not, especially as we got older and bolder. But for the most part we were all taught the do's and don'ts and to have some level of responsibility for our actions.
These two poor kids are the victims of poor parenting or a tragic accidental lapse in oversight. s*it happens. As with all accidents there wasn't any one thing that went wrong here. But one thing for sure, a throttle is at the very least of the things that went wrong and these parents need to look in the mirror.
If you feel we can regulate our way to safety, you are welcome to. But that will never take the place of or be more effective than personal responsibility, proper parenting and education.

 

[Tom@WashDC]

Sorry but I'm just of a different generation and I'm on the side of personal responsibility.
As a youngin many of us in my neighborhood had minibikes. Those that didn't rode their friends. Sometimes under supervision... sometimes not, especially as we got older and bolder. But for the most part we were all taught the do's and don'ts and to have some level of responsibility for our actions.
These two poor kids are the victims of poor parenting or a tragic accidental lapse in oversight. s*it happens. As with all accidents there wasn't any one thing that went wrong here. But one thing for sure, a throttle is at the very least of the things that went wrong and these parents need to look in the mirror.
If you feel we can regulate our way to safety, you are welcome to. But that will never take the place of or be more effective than personal responsibility, proper parenting and education.

Poor Parenting, or no parenting, is the mother of all problems.

 

[AHicks]

Poor Parenting, or no parenting, is the mother of all problems.

Not so sure about ALL problems, but it's damn sure a big factor regarding a BUNCH of them!

 

[Tars Tarkas]

oh, absolutely, we did the same with whatever we could get our hands on. but none of those easily attainable things had motors, which is my point. the easy and cheap power made even easier by 500w at the push of a button expands the envelope, also including kids who aren’t the indestructible daredevil types, who tend to have evolved their juvenile superpower over years.

i would put the majority of the fault at the feet of the parents here. but perhaps not 100%

We had a super hill in the town I grew up in. It wasn't an everyday thing, but on more than a couple of occasions (back in the '60s), we'd walk our bikes to the top and race down. It was possible to stay on the road through the curves but it was altogether possible to have a spectacular wreck on the way down. Thank God kids bones aren't so brittle. I had at least one of those wrecks and just got up and dusted myself off.

Maybe that hill wasn't as bad as the one in question here, but I'll bet it was, or very nearly.

I was probably 13 or 14 years old at the time and it was exceedingly easy to be out of sight and direct control of my parents. So I was 2 or three years older than the girls we're talking about, and we were riding single speed bikes with coaster brakes. I know to an practical certainty that if one of us had been hurt or killed no one would have sued the bike manufacturer. I don't know if anyone would have even blamed the parents. It would have been a horrible accident. Different times, eh?

At eleven or twelve years old with a motorized bike, and a neighborhood full of steep hills. I think the lack of parental supervision was the big factor here, but I guess the age at which that supervision can and probably should become less stringent may be open to debate.

TT

 

[chunk]

I had good parents, but at 14 or so, my mates and I did some asinine things in general, especially on bikes. I think back on the stuff i did and wonder how I survived mostly unscathed, and without a criminal record.