Rad law suit

[mschwett]

...and these parents need to look in the mirror.

i am guessing these parents love looking at themselves in the mirror. of course they've suffered a tragic loss, but their reaction to it, and the multiple lawsuits, does not paint a flattering picture.

as for regulating our way to safety, well, that isn't exclusive to the concept of personal responsibility. that's a straw man because the truth is this is a society, and societies share the costs of many, many things - like roads, and health care. i assume you don't have 2 million in cash in the bank in the event you or a loved one gets cancer or something terrible. you probably have insurance though. ditto the consequences of a terrible car accident. you probably have insurance for that. that's SHARED responsibility, which brings with it the reasonable demand for safety from the entire group which shares the responsibility, not just your or my personal opinion. combined air bag and seat belt use has reduced mortality of head on crashes by 80 percent, and that's why they're legally required in all 50 states. would a key on a powerful ebike be so much to ask, so that the parents are at least making a very conscious decision to give said keys to a minor, or leave them out for anyone to take, etc? that plus some big print in multiple places that it is illegal for a minor to operate an ebike by themselves would be enough for me. then if a parent or guardian does some dumb s*it, they can't say they weren't warned, and they can't say it wasn't an intentional choice.

 

[Tom@WashDC]

Not so sure about ALL problems, but it's damn sure a big factor regarding a BUNCH of them!

Yes, i was using a bit of "poetic license"!

 

[PCeBiker]

Poor Parenting, or no parenting, is the mother of all problems.

Yes, i was using a bit of "poetic license"!

Why is the mother always blamed for bad children?
I was a problem child and it was my dads fault.
Of course it wasn't my fault.
I was just a kid.

 

[m@Robertson]

Well my childhood sure as hell was my fault.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

And I always appreciate that its clear you think before you start typing, which is not something to be taken for granted on the internet.

Honestly - and I think you may have heard me say this before, because it is certainly not the first time - I have been hearing gloomy proclamations about the future of ebiking since ebikes became a thing. And the net response has universally been to broaden their use and acceptance, from a legislative standpoint. Its been a take that has always been so off the mark I have gone to a standardized brushoff to it most times: "the sky is not falling". And I see no reason to change that assessment. Part of the reason is that, over the last few years as ebikes have spread into the mainstream... they have spread into the mainstream. As I said earlier, the toothpaste is already out of the tube. This is no longer a niche product. They are literally everywhere, and any sort of draconian regulation has zero chance of acceptance. By way of example... do you use the required hand signals when you turn and brake? Of course not nobody does (except for Karen and Pollyanna who are reaching for their keyboards right now ).

Ebikes are worming their way into the daily lives of millions. We'll see some much-needed maturity in the marketplace, enforced by the product liability lawsuit (and the personal lawsuit against someone who bought something awful on Ali because they still can). We'll see some minor regulatory stuff like battery standards... and thats going to be it. What will the exceptions be? City councils pandering to angry villagers. We get that now. Also the land use managers governing trails will be a patchwork of conflicting local decisions. But banning throttles? Never going to happen. Its a niche gripe that has far too many benefits and positives.

I hope you're right about the draconian ebike regulation part. And I just thought of a great way to avoid it: A blanket ban on teenagers. ;^}

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Regarding parental responsibility: Suppose you cave to the pressure and give your kid an ebike. You give them the talk first: Momentum, limits of adhesion, traffic laws, distracted drivers, respect for others, etc.

Question: In 2023, on average, what are the odds that the talk will do any good once the ebike-armed kid is released into the wild?

Personally, I think the daredevils and the habitually unruly kids among them will quickly revert to whatever they think they think they can get away with, while the rest quickly revert to whatever they see their friends doing. Not exactly a recipe for responsible riding.

Which means that the only real parental leverage in the system is at the decision to give the ebike.

 

[mschwett]

Regarding parental responsibility: Suppose you cave to the pressure and give your kid an ebike. You give them the talk first: Momentum, limits of adhesion, traffic laws, distracted drivers, respect for others, etc.

Question: In 2023, on average, what are the odds that the talk will do any good once the ebike-armed kid is released into the wild?

…

highly variable! but the consequences are so severe that IF the motor is a significantly increased risk (don’t jump all over me, i said IF) then children should not be allowed to use them, the same way they’re not allowed to use guns, cars, alcohol, etc.

 

[PCeBiker]

Things were different from when I was a kid, but I'm sure I would have joined the other kids in the playground.

 

[m@Robertson]

Age is not a barrier to education and responsible use. Assuming no harm done with the activity (i.e. we aren't talking about vivisecting puppies or something) I would always value training and permission over any kind of ban

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

highly variable! but the consequences are so severe that IF the motor is a significantly increased risk (don’t jump all over me, i said IF) then children should not be allowed to use them, the same way they’re not allowed to use guns, cars, alcohol, etc.

Funny how we compartmentalize things. Everyone in favor of a pre-teen driving a powerful car in traffic, raise your hand!

Isaac Newton would say that IF the motor results in significantly faster acceleration and top speed in practice, THEN significantly higher risk of accident and injury is pretty much baked into the kid+ebike system.

But the motor also adds exposure risk: Around here, unsupervised kids on ebikes are riding in droves in inherently risky places like busy streets and MUPs with greatly increased frequency. And for most, only because the motor makes it easy for them to do so. This only compounds the Newtonian risks.

 

[Gordon71]

Age is not a barrier to education and responsible use. Assuming no harm done with the activity (i.e. we aren't talking about vivisecting puppies or something) I would always value training and permission over any kind of ban

Won't be watching the videos. Reason? The cover of the top one shows a child shooting a target which is a human form. The cover of the second one shows a child on an motorbike and he can't keep his feet or his body on the bike.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

I honestly expect that some level of regulation is inevitable. We need to be smart and proactive and advocate for regulations that aren't insane, not arguing that there isn't a problem (there are multiple problems) or that regulations won't help.

Arguing that any kind of regulation is unenforceable will likely lead people to advocate for a total ban on e-bikes. And we need to remember that we are in the minority, and if there is a perception that e-bikes are unsafe that will dominate the conversation. I think complacency is extremely unwise.

I think you can make a reasonable argument that at least some e-bike batteries are dangerous when improperly used or handled.

I think you can make a reasonable argument that children aged 15 and under should not be allowed to operate e-bikes. You might make an exception if there was some kind of safety and licensing program for kids, say at age 11.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Age is not a barrier to education and responsible use. Assuming no harm done with the activity (i.e. we aren't talking about vivisecting puppies or something) I would always value training and permission over any kind of ban

Supervised activities may be a different story. Unsupervised activities are the ones relevant here.

 

[m@Robertson]

Supervised activities may be a different story. Unsupervised activities are the ones relevant here.

The thing I was keying on was the training, not the supervision. Children can ride ebikes unsupervised with training and guidance. Just as they can be taught to shoot competitively and ride child-sized motorcycles. Both safely.

I was doing 60 mph downhills in the coastal range of the Bay Area from Castle Rock Mtn Park down Hwy 9 then down Big Basin Way at 14-15.

 

[m@Robertson]

Won't be watching the videos. Reason? The cover of the top one shows a child shooting a target which is a human form. The cover of the second one shows a child on an motorbike and he can't keep his feet or his body on the bike.

Competing in the shooting sports myself, I never considered those targets to be human silhouette because they aren't. Thats just a straight up metal strip with a round metal 'A' primary target area. I can see where someone could get that impression now that you gave your perspective, but it is incorrect and never intended to be that.

An IPSC action target is the standard for human silhouette. Very different look. Everything I used in Service Rifle and High Power known-distance shooting is concentric round rings.

Zillions of kids spanning decades of junior motocross handle those bikes just fine. They get their advice from people who know what they are doing and conscientiously teaching the skill. Same as with the shooting sports. My club has a monthly Juniors match - sanctioned by the County - with individual adult instruction for each shooter. They are by far the Club's most-attended event.

 

[JRA]

There was a steep paved road down into town about 1/4mile long from the end of the road my house was on. Anything with wheels was tested out on it as soon as it was possible to get it there. Luckily other than the store bought bikes, as mentioned single speeds with coaster brakes, that we could come up with fell apart before the bottom. I was pretty proud when I was 13 and got a 3spd Raleigh Chopper and was able to ride up the darn thing. Never had an issue going down with the side pull brakes except once in a rainstorm IIRC.

 

[mschwett]

Zillions of kids spanning decades of junior motocross handle those bikes just fine. They get their advice from people who know what they are doing and conscientiously teaching the skill. Same as with the shooting sports. My club has a monthly Juniors match - sanctioned by the County - with individual adult instruction for each shooter. They are by far the Club's most-attended…

i do not quite understand the relevance of these supervised activities on private property to kids (or adults lol) riding bicycles on public property, shared with motor vehicles, pedestrians, etc. am i missing something? do kids race miniature motorcycles or shoot rifles on open city streets lol?

 

[AHicks]

My own experience, when it comes to 2 wheeled craziness, became full matured when I hit a tree as I high sided a Suzuki 80 dirt bike when I was 16 or so. No terrible injuries (bent handlebars), but that hurt! From there, I had MUCH more respect for whatever I was on.... especially the much heavier more powerful stuff some of my friends had (A 500 single Matchless comes to mind here - hey, if you can start it I'll let you ride it!!).

I would NOT blame my parents for that incident. It was a more coming of age thing in my mind. That was using the current thinking at the time though. My dad had NO interest in anything mechanical, other than maybe changing the oil in his car if the weather was nice. Today's thinking may have him at fault for the lack of support he supplied regarding my motorized activities. He was WAY too busy trying to support an 8 kid household in my mind at the time. How stuff like this changes! -Al

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Children can ride ebikes unsupervised with training and guidance.

Suppose that's true for the vast majority of kids. What's your plan for getting them trained up in sufficient numbers?

I know you're concerned about economic barriers to ebiking, so the training program will have to work for lower-income families with parents unable to take time off from work.

 

[Asher]

Regarding parental responsibility: Suppose you cave to the pressure and give your kid an ebike. You give them the talk first: Momentum, limits of adhesion, traffic laws, distracted drivers, respect for others, etc.

Question: In 2023, on average, what are the odds that the talk will do any good once the ebike-armed kid is released into the wild?

Personally, I think the daredevils and the habitually unruly kids among them will quickly revert to whatever they think they think they can get away with, while the rest quickly revert to whatever they see their friends doing. Not exactly a recipe for responsible riding.

Which means that the only real parental leverage in the system is at the decision to give the ebike.

Invoking parental responsibility at every opportunity is an industry tactic to evade any accountability or regulation. Be it for bicycles, junk food, media programming, anything. Because they know they'll sell a lot more of a socially risky product if there are no protections besides a worn out mother or father having to say no. Even without a total ban, regulations can severely diminish demand for their product, and they know it, so they fight accordingly. But if regulations are placed, the effect can be dramatic with little real relevant reduction in freedom.

The Steinsapir case is somewhat murky, but the widespread reports of brakes on Rad bikes rapidly going out of alignment is far more convincingly damning.