Quick update on Archon / Rohloff / Kindernay tests

[pushkar]

I have done around 500 miles riding on the Archon (includes test rig and physical riding) across both Rohloff and Kindernay, and here are some results that riders should be aware of.

Wattage	Mode (as shipped)	Rohloff	Kindernay
750W	Eco	All gears work 1-14	All gears work 1-14
	Sport	All gears work 1-14	All gears work 1-14
1000W	Eco	All gears work 1-14.	All gears work 1-14.
	Sport	Gears 1-5, Slips beyond gear 5 if starting from dead stop or going uphill. (total torque exceeds 250Nm)	Gears 1-7, Slips beyond gear 7 if starting from dead stop or going uphill. (total torque exceeds 250Nm)
2300W	Eco	All gears work 1-14	All gears work 1-14
	Sport	Gears 1-2. Slips beyond gear 2 if starting from dead stop or going uphill. Total Torque exceeds 250Nm).	Gears 1-4. Slips beyond gear 4 if starting from dead stop or going uphill. Total Torque exceeds 250Nm).

Overall, 2 3 observations (added #3)

1. The Kindernay is turning out to be a little bit stronger, but not by much. I am biased because it is new / unique etc, but it is a little stronger in these tests.

2. Realistically the 1000W is probably more than enough for most, if not all scenarios. There is just a LOT of power.

3. This gear slipping also occurs on a chain / cassette system. A 12 Speed chain will break if you are not geared correctly, at right around 250-300Nm torque. A single speed thicker chain will slip on the cogs at 250Nm if geared incorrectly.

I will keep adding to this - but for riders who have the new controller with the Rohloff, please add to this.

I will include this on the site re-design in a few weeks.

Disclaimer: These are not super scientific tests and your values may differ slightly. That being said, we are trying to err on the side of caution and be a little more conservative.

Edit : added observation and disclaimer.

 

[onlineaddy]

So, Pushkar, are you still comfortable offering both systems to be used with Archon? Is the guidance then for us to gear down coming to a stop or going up a hill on Sport mode?

What about wear and tear over time? 500 miles isn’t enough to be indicative of any longevity of the combined system.

 

[pushkar]

1. Yes, both systems will work but I want everyone to be aware of what the current limits are.

2. Gear down is recommended while climbing. You will do that regardless.

3. No noticeable wear tbh .. 500 miles is not enough data - I will continue to test those.

TBH, realistically if we are able to get 20k - 25k miles per hub (so 6-8 years at ~3k miles/ year) at 2300W with regular oil change, that is pretty awesome in my book.

 

[Law]

Pushkar, does the thumb shifting on Kindernay become cumbersome vs wrist shift ?

 

[onlineaddy]

1. Yes, both systems will work but I want everyone to be aware of what the current limits are.

2. Gear down is recommended while climbing. You will do that regardless.

Thanks. But, now in the worst case scenario, we're saying we must (i.e. not just recommended) gear down to gear 1 or gear 2.

3. No noticeable wear tbh .. 500 miles is not enough data - I will continue to test those.

Thank you very much.

TBH, realistically if we are able to get 20k - 25k miles per hub (so 6-8 years at ~3k miles/ year) at 2300W with regular oil change, that is pretty awesome in my book.

The superbike will be my commuter. Just for my commutes, I'll go over 3k miles each year. Add to that leisure or fitness riding, my yearly mileage will be much higher.

 

[pushkar]

Pushkar, does the thumb shifting on Kindernay become cumbersome vs wrist shift ?

It is easier for me. I would prefer same side upshift / downshift, and looks like that is a 2021 / 2022 design option. If they have it earlier, we will provide an upgrade path to it.

However the throttle placement with Kindernay is tricky for sure... it has to be higher / and further away from my thumb now. That is my primary trade off.

I am building a Travalanche for someone and they have the throttle, kindernay, dropper post remote. We had to move the throttle to the right side to maintain usability.

 

[pushkar]

Thanks. But, now in the worst case scenario, we're saying we must (i.e. not just recommended) gear down to gear 1 or gear 2.

My test numbers are (for the most part) from a dead stop / 5mph to cruising speed.
I have not been able to test the scenario you are highlighting, but based on the typical riding observations. the torque and energy needed to go from 15mph to 25mph is much smaller than that needed to go from 0-15mph. So I anticipate that if you are over 15mph already, then you may not need to gear down as much.

The superbike will be my commuter. Just for my commutes, I'll go over 3k miles each year. Add to that leisure or fitness riding, my yearly mileage will be much higher.

Both hubs are rated for much longer for analog bikes. With an ebike and constant high torque, I want to set realistic expectations about what Rohloff / Kindernay or etc will get you. They are mechanical hardware pieces that will grind down over a period of time. Ditto with the belt (3-6k miles), the cogs (6-10k miles), tires (5-10k miles).. everything wears down. If you switched to chain (say EX01), you will need to replace chain every 300-400 miles, and the cassette every 1500 miles.

 

[Ayl]

Yeah, I'll take the belt and cog changes at a few thousand miles instead of a few hundred miles using a chain and cassette.

 

[TomW]

Yeah, I'll take the belt and cog changes at a few thousand miles instead of a few hundred miles using a chain and cassette.

I try not to think about my chain or cassette wear but it is not as bad as I thought it would be to be honest but I am being very careful with shifting, gear choice, and I am keeping up with cleaning and lubing the drivetrain regularly atm.
I get about 600 miles out of a chain and I change the cassette every 2 chains.
But taking of the chain today to clean and oil soak it I noticed that my bottom jockey wheel was pretty beat up more so than I have ever seen on any other bike, bearings are fine but the teeth are pretty chewed up. The top one is perfectly fine, And it still works great.
Mind you I have seen some nice hope alloy ones so I may try those as a replacement, and they are blue lol.

 

[onlineaddy]

My test numbers are (for the most part) from a dead stop / 5mph to cruising speed.
I have not been able to test the scenario you are highlighting, but based on the typical riding observations. the torque and energy needed to go from 15mph to 25mph is much smaller than that needed to go from 0-15mph. So I anticipate that if you are over 15mph already, then you may not need to gear down as much.

Yes, I am referring to your test scenarios. The worst-case scenario (Rohloff, 2300W, Sport) necessitates gear 1 or 2 when starting from stop or climbing hills. That's quite low (gear).

Both hubs are rated for much longer for analog bikes. With an ebike and constant high torque, I want to set realistic expectations about what Rohloff / Kindernay or etc will get you. They are mechanical hardware pieces that will grind down over a period of time. Ditto with the belt (3-6k miles), the cogs (6-10k miles), tires (5-10k miles).. everything wears down. If you switched to chain (say EX01), you will need to replace chain every 300-400 miles, and the cassette every 1500 miles.

I'm grateful for you providing your test results to help set expectations and guidance. I definitely prefer knowing what the system limitations are so that I do not exceed them for the health of the system. Wear over time is expected for any component. But, remember now, the Rohloff/Kindernay is much more expensive to replace than a cassette.

For those uninitiated, what are the differences between the Eco and Sport modes? Say I've got the 2300W configuration of the Ultra/Archon. How are Eco and Sport different? Why would I not stay in Eco so I can utilize all 14 gears?

 

[Deleted member 18083]

Pushkar…
Can you explain in what way the gears slip. It sounds ominous!

• What is actually 'slipping'?
• Does the 'slipping' occur as the gears are changed or when a specific gear is engaged?

… David

 

[Ebiker33]

If you switched to chain (say EX01), you will need to replace chain every 300-400 miles, and the cassette every 1500 miles.

That could get expensive pretty fast for people that use their bikes everyday, for example if you drove just 12 miles 5 times a week you would need to replace your cassette 2 times per year.

 

[pushkar]

Pushkar…
Can you explain in what way the gears slip. It sounds ominous!
… David

Every hub has some level of slipping- and that is actually what gives the hub max torque numbers. Very similar to chain slipping if you are in the wrong gear and apply too much pressure - same stuff.

Occasional slipping happens on all hubs, even under manual pedal pressure. Infact on a regular analog bike, try to go uphill on gear 12 and beyond on a 15 % or higher incline, and put your entire weight on the cranks to pedal- you will get a slip. Not uncommon at all IMO. Repeated slipping will start to break the gear teeth.

We are highlighting that correct gearing is important. With the Ultra, we can cross 250Nm (motor at 200Nm, pedal at 100Nm) under certain scenarios, and we want to educate our customers.

Also to be more transparent, this gear slipping also occurs on chain and cassette in our tests - this is not a Rohloff or Kindernay-only problem. I don't want to raise alarms abotu Rohloff. A 12 speed chain geared incorrectly will actually break right around 250-300Nm.... long before it slips. If you try with a thick single speed chain, you can replicate the slipping.

 

[pushkar]

That could get expensive pretty fast for people that use their bikes everyday, for example if you drove just 12 miles 5 times a week you would need to replace your cassette 2 times per year.

That's why belts are much better for higher power bikes- just easier to manage, and if tensioned correctly, they last a LOT longer.

 

[Deacon Blues]

Pushkar, if down the road we should have a mechanical failure with either hubs who will do the repairs? Will you have to send the Rholoff hub to Cycle Monkey and the Kindernay hub back to Europe?

 

[pushkar]

I'm grateful for you providing your test results to help set expectations and guidance. I definitely prefer knowing what the system limitations are so that I do not exceed them for the health of the system. Wear over time is expected for any component. But, remember now, the Rohloff/Kindernay is much more expensive to replace than a cassette.

Thanks for the kind words. Rohloff is not harder to replace - the individual gears can be changed with a little "elbow grease". The process is not straightforward - though it is documented from Rohloff (and I am sure its online somewhere).

As I mentioned earlier - I want to provide background on what the system limits are. If you operate within the Torque limits, I anticipate Rohloff and Kindernay to last a long long time. I try to be a little conservative in my estimates so I am sure you can get 30-40k miles. The internal mechanisms are excellent, and honestly i was surprised it took over 250Nm to get the slip (as a reference the official limit is 130- 140Nm)!

For those uninitiated, what are the differences between the Eco and Sport modes? Say I've got the 2300W configuration of the Ultra/Archon. How are Eco and Sport different? Why would I not stay in Eco so I can utilize all 14 gears?

Approximate for illustration purposes only - this is how the sensors provide the motor signal for eco / sport

	Eco 1	Eco 2	Eco 3	Eco 4	Eco 5	Sport 1	Sport 2	Sport 3	Sport 4	Sport 5
Torque Sensing %	90	80	70	60	50	40	30	20	10	0
Cadence Sensing %	10	20	30	40	50	60	70	80	90	100

At Eco 1 -5 you are doing a lot of pedaling and assist is provided based on the pedal force.

At Sport 5, you basically have a BBSHD (cadence sensing only) - I usually end up clown pedaling.


To answer you question - Eco 1-5 is realistically all most people need. I don't even remember I tried to do (default) sport mode. It just feels toooooo powerful even omn a regular Ultra and I just don't even go there on the Archon.

 

[onlineaddy]

Thanks so much for the table illustrating Eco vs Sport (and torque vs cadence sensing). I have a BBSHD but on a single gear. I’m looking forward to torque sensing getting me to provide more effort when pedaling.

 

[pushkar]

Pushkar, if down the road we should have a mechanical failure with either hubs who will do the repairs? Will you have to send the Rholoff hub to Cycle Monkey and the Kindernay hub back to Europe?

I have not had to repair a Rohloff / Kindernay yet but Our goal is to get you up and riding asap. Broadly speaking, here is our policy.

In the first 2 years (under warranty), dont bother fixing anything, just send the entire wheel to me. I will send you a new wheel. Just get up and riding. If you pay for advance shipping (typically ~$80 or so with USPS within the US), I will ship you the wheel before you send me yours. We will put a temporary hold for the whole value of the new wheel till we receive yours. Just easier to swap than to have you fix in the field.

After the first 2 years
- If it is a small part (usually axle plate, or a bolt etc- you can buy one from CM for rohloff, and us for the Kindernay.
- If the hub is broken, send us the entire wheel, we will coordinate / Fix / RMA with Rohloff / Kindernay. This might take longer. In the meanwhile If we have a loaner / demo replacement hub, we will loan you one while yours is being fixed. There might be a shipping charge + a small loaner rental charge (I don't know what that charge is because we haven't run into it yet, but we will try to make it right by you). We will put a temporary hold for the whole value of the new wheel till we receive yours.

Beyond 5 years ... umm.. rohloff / kindernay will be "free" .. though you may have to buy a top of the line WW ebike. (just so there is no confusion, I am getting you to buy a new bike with rohloff / kindernay on it)

If you think there is a better way, let me know.

 

[byunbee]

So in the 1st 2 years under warranty, we’re looking at $80 ship to you + $80 ship to me = $160 for total shipping or is the shipping to me covered by WW? I ask because most warranty services, at minimum cover vendor shipment back to the consumer.

 

[pushkar]

So in the 1st 2 years under warranty, we’re looking at $80 ship to you + $80 ship to me = $160 for total shipping or is the shipping to me covered by WW? I ask because most warranty services, at minimum cover vendor shipment back to the consumer.

Only If you need advance replacement, I.e. want me to ship replacement before customer sends it to me.