Product Improvement:- Feedback to Bosch.

[William - Bosch Team]

Hi Bob,

Great suggestions!

The Battery Management System inside the battery itself actually manages the charging for the Bosch battery. It takes voltage from the wall charger, and controls the charging/balancing process from there. All Bosch displays are essentially just input/output devices, some with fancier features than others.

I like this idea, it would be great to have real-time updates as we all sometime forget to check tire pressure. That being said, if the effective tire circumference is set accurately (properly weighted roll-out), it will be more accurate than many/most cellphone GPS devices, especially when considering hilly or uneven terrain. I've also witnessed multiple situations where heavy tree cover, large hills, or even mountains have obstructed GPS or "GPS-like" device communication to the point of non-function. While it is a super exciting idea, I think a dynamically calculated circumference would also introduce more opportunity for "speed-tuning,"or tricking the system into exceeding the legal speed regulation.

Any adjustment that the rider can make in Nyon (or that the shop can make in the Diagnostic Tool) is purely costmetic in that it only affects displayed speed, not actual speed limitation, but I have a feeling the variation might still conflict with some regulations.

Not a fun answer, I know.

 

[Pedal Basher]

I was wondering if there was a way to get these updates, or even small changes done over the internet? I live over an hour's drive from my nearest agent and would like to get my light to turn off, but didn't want to transport the bike if there was another way?

 

[opimax]

I have just been told my bike is ready to pick up with the dual battery configuration. I would like to purchase a smart fast 6 amp charger. They do not seem to be available in the US. There is one for sale in England , will this work in the US with a plug converter to the the 120 volts we have at our system?

 

[William - Bosch Team]

I was wondering if there was a way to get these updates, or even small changes done over the internet? I live over an hour's drive from my nearest agent and would like to get my light to turn off, but didn't want to transport the bike if there was another way?

Currently, there are only a few small update options available OTA (Over The Air) for Kiox and Smartphonehub. Aything else, like updating the battery/ drive unit, or changing light settings will still require the Bosch Diagnostic Tool at a Certified Dealer.

 

[William - Bosch Team]

I have just been told my bike is ready to pick up with the dual battery configuration. I would like to purchase a smart fast 6 amp charger. They do not seem to be available in the US. There is one for sale in England , will this work in the US with a plug converter to the the 120 volts we have at our system?

Congrats! New Bike Day is always exciting!

For faster charging on Dual Battery-equipped eBikes, we recommend getting an additional 2A or 4A charger, and removing one of the batteries from the eBike for charging. Given the widely varying temperatures in most regions of the world, batteries are often removed from the eBike for storage/charging anyways. Charging each battery with its own 4A charger will be faster than charging both with a single 6A. No dangerous adaptation required, and you should have full warranty and tech support.

In addition to compatibility issues with the AC power delivery cord, voltage (the 6A is strictly ~240v, not ~120v-240v range) and frequency, the 6A has not been tested or approved for use in NA. The 6A also has no warranty or technical support outside of its designated region.

 

[opimax]

Thx for the reply! Will there be 6 amp for us?? I will probably purchase a 2nd 4amp Charger and run 3 or 4 batteries Off the 2chargers.

i wasn't sure if the current 6amp Was meant for 110-240

is there any issue with buying a Nyon from England and using it in the US rather than the Kiox update? I was told the Nyon won’t be till winter availability

 

[William - Bosch Team]

Thx for the reply! Will there be 6 amp for us?? I will probably purchase a 2nd 4amp Charger and run 3 or 4 batteries Off the 2chargers.

i wasn't sure if the current 6amp Was meant for 110-240

is there any issue with buying a Nyon from England and using it in the US rather than the Kiox update? I was told the Nyon won’t be till winter availability

You're welcome!

So far, I've not heard anything about a 6A for the states. I'm not sure if it's an issue with adapting it to work on 110v, regulatory, or something else.

Are you talking about new Nyon or existing Nyon? I don't think the new one is available anywhere on Earth yet. They are (2) very different products. My apologies if I'm misunderstanding your question.

Either way, you won't have warranty support in the US on products designed/manufactured for a different region, and you won't have much in the way of technical assistance/advice from Bosch on the older Nyon.

 

[M1Rate]

Hi Steve,

I agree with you... it would be great to be able to use the app for both displays. Unfortunately, the Kiox and the SPH use different apps because they are very different products in terms of software design. Both Kiox and SPH hub communicate with the app on the phone via Bluetooth, so the hard-wired charging connection won't make any difference in terms of compatibility. I'd imagine that eventually, we'll see a universal app for all Bosch displays.

When and if Bosch decides on the universal app — is that the Nyon? — complete compatibility with Apple Health as well as Google Maps/Apple Maps (bicycle routes) is paramount.

Passing the already-collected heart data to the Kiox would be trivial. And why can I not use Kiox data within the Apple Health data set? Is it that Bosch does not want to pay some sort of Apple licensing fee? Cuz if so: Pass the pennies on to the consumer. Cuz we won’t care.

In exactly the same fashion, Google Maps and the included bicycle routes (or the forthcoming Apple Maps bicycle guidance) are 1000 times better than Bosch’s system, which unhelpfully treats bicycles like cars, putting riders on dangerous “fast” routes with no bicycle lane infrastructure. If I were Bosch, I’d immediately consider what liability you are taking on by directing riders to manifestly unsafe routes, regardless of what caveats you have buried in your EULA.

In short, do not attempt to reinvent popular utilities that are the most widely-used health and guidance apps in the world. Or, if you do intend to do that: Do it better. Much, much better.

Cheers!

 

[webcurl]

When and if Bosch decides on the universal app — is that the Nyon? — complete compatibility with Apple Health as well as Google Maps/Apple Maps (bicycle routes) is paramount.
Passing the already-collected heart data to the Kiox would be trivial. And why can I not use Kiox data within the Apple Health data set? Is it that Bosch does not want to pay some sort of Apple licensing fee? Cuz if so: Pass the pennies on to the consumer. Cuz we won’t care.

iPhone market share may well be over 50% in North America but Android has over 70% globally (you know, the other 7+ billion people !
I personally do not want to pay for your portion of Apple's licensing fee!

 

[M1Rate]

Congrats! New Bike Day is always exciting!

For faster charging on Dual Battery-equipped eBikes, we recommend getting an additional 2A or 4A charger, and removing one of the batteries from the eBike for charging. Given the widely varying temperatures in most regions of the world, batteries are often removed from the eBike for storage/charging anyways. Charging each battery with its own 4A charger will be faster than charging both with a single 6A. No dangerous adaptation required, and you should have full warranty and tech support.

In addition to compatibility issues with the AC power delivery cord, voltage (the 6A is strictly ~240v, not ~120v-240v range) and frequency, the 6A has not been tested or approved for use in NA. The 6A also has no warranty or technical support outside of its designated region.

I can understand that removing the two 500 W batteries from the tube will be faster.

I was looking to see whether Bosch chargers automatically limit charging to ~80% with a quarterly balancing charge to 100%?

Does that occur?

Or must it be done manually? Is it recommended to do this manually?

 

[M1Rate]

Ebike Connect

The App is generally well done, but suffers one annoying flaw: It does not recognize Apple’s “Allow Location Awareness While Using” function.

Instead, the only choice that works is to ALWAYS allow location. First, that comes off as unnecessarily spy-ish. And second: It drains the iPhone battery right on down EVEN WHEN NOT USING THE APP, for no discernible benefit nor reason whatsoever.

When reviewing data AFTER a ride — not connected to the bike, not riding — the Location Awareness must also be turned on or the data is inaccessible.

The net result of this is that Bosch has made using their app extremely tedious by forcing endusers to turn location on and off before and after each ride; and when accessing the data, if they value their privacy.

Why, Bosch, why?

 

[M1Rate]

iPhone market share may well be over 50% in North America but Android has over 70% globally (you know, the other 7+ billion people !
I personally do not want to pay for your portion of Apple's licensing fee!

Then pass costs on to Apple users who want the Apple-compliant functionality; and pass on the Android functionality to the Android users.

This is not hard. It’s called an in-app purchase, precisely as easy as purchasing the Kiox lockout function for $9.99.

As to the world’s 7 billion people: 99.99% of them are not buying multi-thousand-dollar Bosch motor systems and batteries nor gobsmackingly expensive ebikes to install them on. They can go fend for themselves.

 

[opimax]

William, thx for the response. I will get the currently available Kiox and be done with it. I didn’t know there are 2 different Nyons.

If you dont know much about when a 6 amp will be available I will assume too long to wait if I want it now so I am looking for a 2nd 4amp. I do note that they are cheaper Including shipping overseas and will work with an adapter, just sayin . I will prob get from local shop if they can get it.

They said no batteries till Sept which is not acceptable, looking else where locally 1st then on line. Do you have any knowledge of 500 powerpacks locations near Atlanta for local pick up?

thanks for your help

 

[William - Bosch Team]

I can understand that removing the two 500 W batteries from the tube will be faster.

I was looking to see whether Bosch chargers automatically limit charging to ~80% with a quarterly balancing charge to 100%?

Does that occur?

Or must it be done manually? Is it recommended to do this manually?

Hello!

I'm not sure I completely understand the question, but I'll take a crack at it.

First, all charging behavior and activity is managed by the Battery Management System (BMS) in each Bosch eBike Battery. Our chargers pretty much just provide the proper voltage/current.

When using a single charger with a Dual-Battery setup, the batteries will alternate taking charge in small increments (the system always wants to keep them as close to each other as possible). Once the combined charge hits [either 80% or 90%, I forget which], it will charge both batteries simultaneously. This simultaneous charge is possible at the end because the charge rate slows as 'full capacity' is approached.
Edit: 8/14/20: I just found out a few minutes ago that we have changed it, and now it charges the first battery to roughly 80-90%, then the second battery to 80-90%, and finally both batteries simultaneously the rest of the way to 100%.

In the same way that the BMS in each Bosch Battery works to keep all (40) cells balanced with each other (more cells in PT625!), the Dual-Battery software will work to keep both Bosch Batteries balanced with each other.

 

[M1Rate]

Hello!

I'm not sure I completely understand the question, but I'll take a crack at it.

First, all charging behavior and activity is managed by the Battery Management System (BMS) in each Bosch eBike Battery. Our chargers pretty much just provide the proper voltage/current.

When using a single charger with a Dual-Battery setup, the batteries will alternate taking charge in small increments (the system always wants to keep them as close to each other as possible). Once the combined charge hits [either 80% or 90%, I forget which], it will charge both batteries simultaneously. This simultaneous charge is possible at the end because the charge rate slows as 'full capacity' is approached.

In the same way that the BMS in each Bosch Battery works to keep all (40) cells balanced with each other (more cells in PT625!), the Dual-Battery software will work to keep both Bosch Batteries balanced with each other.

Yes, I understand that the Bosch charging system for the dual battery setup regulates the charging and their relative charge levels. For instance, the last time I tried to charge the batteries to 80% as a matter of good practice to extend overall battery life, I found that the batteries were charged 70% and 90%, respectively.

So, to clarify my question: Does Bosch recommend charging batteries to ~80% when they are depleted to ~30% as a matter of good practice to extend overall battery life?

Or does Bosch recommend always charging to 100%?

And, if the latter, how does Bosch respond to widely-available, well-documented evidence that keeping Lithium-Ion batteries charged at between 30% and 80% extends their life substantially?

Is there any technology in the Bosch 4 amp charger that somehow addresses the well known advantage of NOT charging batteries repeatedly to 100%?

Or nah?

And, if not, do you recommend purchasing a second 4 amp charger, removing the two batteries, and charging them separately in order to obtain the reportedly-valuable advantage of charging them each to a verifiable 80%?

 

[William - Bosch Team]

William, thx for the response. I will get the currently available Kiox and be done with it. I didn’t know there are 2 different Nyons.

If you dont know much about when a 6 amp will be available I will assume too long to wait if I want it now so I am looking for a 2nd 4amp. I do note that they are cheaper Including shipping overseas and will work with an adapter, just sayin . I will prob get from local shop if they can get it.

They said no batteries till Sept which is not acceptable, looking else where locally 1st then on line. Do you have any knowledge of 500 powerpacks locations near Atlanta for local pick up?

thanks for your help

Not sure which Nyon you are familiar with, but here is a link to the new one: https://www.bosch-ebike.com/us/products/nyon/

Good call on not waiting for the 6A charger. It will likely not be in the US anytime soon, if ever at all.

The 2A and 4A chargers sold overseas are less expensive due to their 220v only compatibility. Different product than what is sold in the States, unfortunately.

My sincere apologies for the battery supply difficulties. A little insight into the current state of things in the bicycle industry:

The entire bicycle industry has felt major effects from COVID-19. Most bicycle shops sold out of starting price-point bicycles several months ago. Some shops have zero new bicycle inventory on the floor. The general consensus from shops is that consumers looking for a $500 bicycle are leaving with a $1,500-$2,000 model, or nothing at all. Common repair parts (26" tubes, brake pads, tires, etc., etc.,) are incredibly hard to get, making the current 3-4 week repair queue at many shops even more difficult. Shops that previously had no interest in eBikes are now ordering them just to have something on the sales floor.

In addition to the enormous demand for bicycles (and pretty much all outdoor/leisure equipment right now), the global supply chain was shut down for a little while. When this all first started, nobody really had any idea what would happen. Distributors were cancelling or postponing re-stock orders, nobody knew that the industry would be thriving, and shattering pretty much every previous record. Within a few weeks time, many bicycle shops went from being closed by government order, to working seemingly endless overtime.

It has been, and will likely continue to be a wild ride for some time.

I'll contact a few dealers I know in Atlanta and see if anyone happens to have an extra PowerPack 500 on the shelf. To confirm, are you looking for the type that mounts on the down tube, plastic case, carry handle up top?

 

[William - Bosch Team]

Yes, I understand that the Bosch charging system for the dual battery setup regulates the charging and their relative charge levels. For instance, the last time I tried to charge the batteries to 80% as a matter of good practice to extend overall battery life, I found that the batteries were charged 70% and 90%, respectively.

So, to clarify my question: Does Bosch recommend charging batteries to ~80% when they are depleted to ~30% as a matter of good practice to extend overall battery life?

Or does Bosch recommend always charging to 100%?

And, if the latter, how does Bosch respond to widely-available, well-documented evidence that keeping Lithium-Ion batteries charged at between 30% and 80% extends their life substantially?

Is there any technology in the Bosch 4 amp charger that somehow addresses the well known advantage of NOT charging batteries repeatedly to 100%?

Or nah?

And, if not, do you recommend purchasing a second 4 amp charger, removing the two batteries, and charging them separately in order to obtain the reportedly-valuable advantage of charging them each to a verifiable 80%?

Bosch recommends charging to 100% if you ride on a regular basis. For longer term storage, 30%-60% is recommended by Bosch. Your local shop should be able to get you a free "Bosch eBike Battery Guide," which has a great deal of useful information on caring for your Bosch-equipped eBike.

As you are aware, no lithium battery technology really benefits from long-term storage at 100%. It's a careful balance between not storing with too much potential energy, and not storing with so little that gradual self-discharge takes it below the low-voltage cut-off point.

It's all relative, and cumulative. I liken it to consuming unhealthy food... a little bit here and there is not a big deal, but if you eat bad frequently, you will likely experience adverse health effects. In other words: if you charge to 100% intending to ride, but life gets in the way and it's a few weeks, or even a few months, this probably won't have a significant affect on the life of the battery.

The 4A charger will charge the battery to 100%, unless you disconnect it early.

A personal anecdote: In addition to eBikes with Bosch, I've also worked as a rep in power tools that use lithium batteries, and tinkered at home with numerous RC vehicles that use lithium batteries. I charge everything to 100% so that it's there when I need it. I have many power tool batteries that are still going strong after 5 years, even after sitting on the shelf untouched for months at a time. I'm not saying I recommend this method for anyone else, but it works for me. It's definitely up to the individual to choose how they manage their stuff.

There are some great methods for getting the absolute maximum life out of a battery (or anything else in life), but balancing that with how you want to use it is also important. I keep my eBike battery at 100% so that on the rare occasion I can get away from the family, there is less holding me back.

I hope this helps!

 

[M1Rate]

Bosch recommends charging to 100% if you ride on a regular basis. For longer term storage, 30%-60% is recommended by Bosch. Your local shop should be able to get you a free "Bosch eBike Battery Guide," which has a great deal of useful information on caring for your Bosch-equipped eBike.

As you are aware, no lithium battery technology really benefits from long-term storage at 100%. It's a careful balance between not storing with too much potential energy, and not storing with so little that gradual self-discharge takes it below the low-voltage cut-off point.

It's all relative, and cumulative. I liken it to consuming unhealthy food... a little bit here and there is not a big deal, but if you eat bad frequently, you will likely experience adverse health effects. In other words: if you charge to 100% intending to ride, but life gets in the way and it's a few weeks, or even a few months, this probably won't have a significant affect on the life of the battery.

The 4A charger will charge the battery to 100%, unless you disconnect it early.

A personal anecdote: In addition to eBikes with Bosch, I've also worked as a rep in power tools that use lithium batteries, and tinkered at home with numerous RC vehicles that use lithium batteries. I charge everything to 100% so that it's there when I need it. I have many power tool batteries that are still going strong after 5 years, even after sitting on the shelf untouched for months at a time. I'm not saying I recommend this method for anyone else, but it works for me. It's definitely up to the individual to choose how they manage their stuff.

There are some great methods for getting the absolute maximum life out of a battery (or anything else in life), but balancing that with how you want to use it is also important. I keep my eBike battery at 100% so that on the rare occasion I can get away from the family, there is less holding me back.

I hope this helps!

Okay, thanks for that.

I ride my bike every day as a car substitute. This is why I am interested in maximizing battery life so that overall costs and maintenance is constrained.

A thorough post here on EBR by member @Ravi Kempaiah (see https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/e-bike-battery-guide.24443/) flatly states that consistently charging batteries to 100% on a well-used ebike will result in the battery seriously degrading after two years.

As you say, balancing needs versus best praxes is good. I typically ride city roads on trips under 20 miles. With 1000 Watt dual batteries, I can keep the charge levels between 30% and 80% and still only charge my ebike once per week.

And then, if desired for a planned trip, charge to 100% as needed. Or charge to 100% quarterly in an effort to assist balancing.

All that being said, and just as Tesla is doing, Bosch should improve their charging systems so that they arrive with the same functionalities and utilities as, for instance, the Satiator.

I understand that the widest markets serve people who do not care about all that. But there is plenty of room to market to those who do, and we are not concerned about a few dollars in the pursuit of convenience and utility.

Thanks, again, for clarifying that Bosch recommends charging to 100% as a regular practice for those who regularly use their ebikes.

 

[webcurl]

Not sure which Nyon you are familiar with, but here is a link to the new one: https://www.bosch-ebike.com/us/products/nyon/

I hear that Nyon 2 has a completely different mount.
Part of the attraction of Nyon 1 (apart from the large screen) was that you could leave it at home some of the time & use the Intuvia in place (cheaper to replace).
I would have thought that the Nyon 2 would be interchangeable with the Kiox but no.
So we have:
Purion, Cobi, Smartphone Hub, Kiox & Nyon 2 all on their own as far as mounts go.
Intuvia & Nyon 1 sharing the same mount.
Also heard that prices for Nyon 1 are going through the roof

 

[fooferdoggie]

I hear that Nyon 2 has a completely different mount.
Part of the attraction of Nyon 1 (apart from the large screen) was that you could leave it at home some of the time & use the Intuvia in place (cheaper to replace).
I would have thought that the Nyon 2 would be interchangeable with the Kiox but no.
So we have:
Purion, Cobi, Smartphone Hub, Kiox & Nyon 2 all on their own as far as mounts go.
Intuvia & Nyon 1 sharing the same mount.
Also heard that prices for Nyon 1 are going through the roof

Plus they all need their own wiring now. Even if you have the intuvia and want the new kiox you have to have new wires run.