New motor: Made in Canada, 2022 Mid-drive system

[ruffruff]

As I understand it it needs 197mm spacing probably to accommodate the 70t chainring? There are Ultra bike frames made to that spec and also as I understand it you can also swap the rear triangle from 148 boost to 197mm on frames like the DengFu E22 and perhaps others.

But even if you deal with the spacing you still have to deal with the left hand drive train. This would be a very involved DIY project if it could be done.
These may show up on some complete BikTrix builds but think it would be a hard sell for the DIY crowd.

 

[scrambler]

But even if you deal with the spacing you still have to deal with the left hand drive train. This would be a very involved DIY project if it could be done.

Depends if they will offer custom rear Hubs with built in carrier for the sprocket, or Custom carriers for existing rear hubs to support the motor sprocket and brake rotor.
I hope they do

 

[ruffruff]

Depends if they will offer custom rear Hubs with built in carrier for the sprocket, or Custom carriers for existing rear hubs to support the motor sprocket and brake rotor.
I hope they do

They will offer all that on a Biktrix built bike!

 

[m@Robertson]

On the conceptualization of how a single speed motor can effectively run in a single gear, I think I see a pattern to what people are missing who don't think it can be done.

1. Look at the back end of that LMX64. Specifically the drive sprocket on the left. Its gigantic. Dinner plate sized or larger. Likewise the front ring is very small. So this is a granny gear that can allow the motor to spin fast (fassst!) no matter what the speed. Thats the low end taken care of, as well as torque. The next thing people are going to think is...

2. If its in a granny gear, then it will top out at slow speed and can't go fast. Thats only true of a low rpm motor... which pretty much all existing mid drive and even geared hub motors are at a few hundred rpms at most. To allow higher speed, if your motor can top out at higher rpms, you have the top speed issue licked - at least from the motor standpoint.

I have an ebike motor that tops out at 10,000 12,000 rpms. For reals. It sounds insane when you have it going at full tilt though. I keep thinking its going to explode. But its fine. and so far so is the kart chain and drivetrain.

So when I am hearing about a jackshaft setup allowing both low and high speed I'm not questioning it can do those two things.

 

[Gionnirocket]

I may be wrong... But I don't think this set up falls under the definition of a jackshaft setup.

 

[PedalUma]

I have only read the first and last pages of this thread. I am looking forward for the 2-day Tuesday announcement on 22222. I can tell that there is a belt drive on the right. That would likely go to a hydraulically shifted Kindernay IGH, but those through axle hubs are 14 speeds, not 12. If it where Gates than the right seat stay would need a break. One problem is that the motor is illegal as tuned. The lawyers and insurers would shut that down by detuning it so that it could be marketed. Then you would be left with an overweight detuned system.

 

[Deafcat]

As I mentioned, no problem competing with and exceeding Bafang Ultra performance at the same wattage level of existing Ultra bikes

Added weight isn't much. We will absolutely be reducing weight further as we go (typical continuous improvement of product+manufacturing). The drivetrain was designed well from the get-go for low weight.

Still, I wouldn't carry it up three flights of stairs into your tiny apartment (this is generally unwise with many fat-tire ebikes).

The goal with this system is always going to be to reduce "cost-per-km". This is very important to folks who ride ebikes instead of cars, on a daily basis, year-round.

As for "speed concerns" with limited power: you'll have no problem exceeding your "ambiguous state ebike speed limits" like 32 km/h in Canada, at low power levels, Although honestly if you follow such laws to the letter, maybe this isn't the ebike system for you

 

[JRA]

But even if you deal with the spacing you still have to deal with the left hand drive train. This would be a very involved DIY project if it could be done.
These may show up on some complete BikTrix builds but think it would be a hard sell for the DIY crowd.

It was already established that is the case. I happen to have an Ultra motor bike that could swap out rear ends though as well as others. Probably won't however.

 

[PedalUma]

The goal with this system is always going to be to reduce "cost-per-km". This is very important to folks who ride ebikes instead of cars, on a daily basis, year-round.

As for "speed concerns" with limited power: you'll have no problem exceeding your "ambiguous state ebike speed limits" like 32 km/h in Canada, at low power levels, Although honestly if you follow such laws to the letter, maybe this isn't the ebike system for you

@Deafcat, I have been running an experiment since January 2018 of not owning a car and only riding electric bikes everyday of the year. I unlock mine from limits for the feel and do not ride like a maniac. Although not one of my bikes, this is one of my builds that lives on a hill in San Francisco.

 

[Bubba zanetti]

@Deafcat is there a specific time we can expect this announcement tomorrow? I’m quite curious to learn more.

 

[TomD]

All motor assist power is transferred to the rear end via independent belt/chain drive, with 10:1 reduction from the motor core... This provides incredibly good torque and power at the rear wheel, and removes all assist power from the bicycle chain.

How well has this worked on prototypes paired with rear suspension? I assume the belt needs some sort of tensioner? Also, I recall early protypes of the LMX64 were obnoxiously loud but perhaps they fixed that once they found the right belt drive.

 

[PedalUma]

How well has this worked on prototypes paired with rear suspension? I assume the belt needs some sort of tensioner? Also, I recall early protypes of the LMX64 were obnoxiously loud but perhaps they fixed that once they found the right belt drive.

Which adds resistance, friction. Loud can be solved. Or could make a big mess as part of the learning curve.

 

[Ken M]

I am assuming that these will be a DIY put on any bike type of system?

Looks like it has a square taper crank axle so unless the frame is cut I don't think it's a bolt on kit. They will face a huge challenge trying to get the brands to integrate to a model as the big mid drive brands like Bosch, Brose, and Yamaha are solid lock contracts with most brands. Bafang has made some inroads because they are large enough that the OEMs know they will be around in the future.

 

[TomD]

Sounds like it may be a biktrix sponsored venture? It doesn't seem the goal is to develop this for the 250W euro-spec mass market but rather provide an alternative to Bafang Ultra for off road / high power enthusiasts. Makes a lot of sense to take the stress off the chain in that regard. As others have noted it's reminiscent of the LMX 64 design, not sure what in particular LMX patented.

https://lmxbikes.com/index.php/en/2021/04/09/focus-on-the-patented-lmx-double-transmission/

 

[scrambler]

I think what LMX patented is the Freewheel carrier for the Rear sprocket in their dual transmission.
But @Deafcat mentioned they were testing regen with the motor, in which case they are not using a freewheel on the motor side, so they can offer regen instead.

 

[Deafcat]

@Deafcat is there a specific time we can expect this announcement tomorrow? I’m quite curious to learn more.

Time not quite determined yet, we've been working around the clock to finish media and website (working on it right now! I'm a real web designer tonight )

I'd like to say mid-afternoon, Sask time (we have our own time-zone, it's a good one!)

 

[Jon A]

We are speaking of 2000W to 3000W motor here, and these for a fact can do the job on a single gear ratio (especially if designed for it, which is the case here).
I know, I have one

Yes, exactly like I said in the first place. Thank you.

I think I see a pattern to what people are missing who don't think it can be done.

Nobody said it can't be done. I only said if it is done, it's not from some magic that happens by making it a single speed. As you say, the motor needs to be a completely different animal.

I have an ebike motor that tops out at 10,000 12,000 rpms. For reals. It sounds insane when you have it going at full tilt though. I keep thinking its going to explode. But its fine. and so far so is the kart chain and drivetrain.

The CYC isn't a great example though, as it still moves the bike through the cassette. You can chug slowly up a steep mountain all day with that and still be spinning the motor in its optimum RPM range--not lugging it in the lower 20% of its operating range where electric motors tend to suck down battery like you have a hole in your gas tank and get very hot.

People in this thread have noted the downsides of running the power through the cassette, and they are very real. But there are upsides as well. People believing there is such thing as "a free lunch" isn't accurate nor helpful to them in making good decisions. Everything is a compromise. Good Engineers don't believe in magic. We know better. Just like good Economists (the few who are left) don't believe there's such thing as a free lunch.

I really do hope this motor/drivetrain system is fantastic. I was about to order another Ultra as a backup motor (while you can still get UART motors), but I'm going to hold off for a while to see more information on this motor. If it is a viable replacement for the Ultra for my uses I'll be thrilled. But I'm going to need to see a lot more data before taking it on faith that there will be no compromises or downsides as some here seem ready to do.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Time not quite determined yet, we've been working around the clock to finish media and website (working on it right now! I'm a real web designer tonight )

I'd like to say mid-afternoon, Sask time (we have our own time-zone, it's a good one!)

Working around the clock??
I guess posting this bs in the middle of the night counts as work

It will probably at 2:22:22pm as it is in line with hype build up. I bet the children have formed a line outside the Biktrix store.

 

[Deacon Blues]

Working around the clock??
I guess posting this bs in the middle of the night counts as work

It will probably at 2:22:22pm as it is in line with hype build up. I bet the children have formed a line outside the Biktrix store.

Before you knock them why don't you just wait until the details are released?

 

[Bubba zanetti]

Time not quite determined yet, we've been working around the clock to finish media and website (working on it right now! I'm a real web designer tonight )

I'd like to say mid-afternoon, Sask time (we have our own time-zone, it's a good one!)

Sounds good, I will watch for it. Good luck with your ambitious project!
I never champion nor poopoo innovation or change. Just open the curiosity and see what’s there.