New motor: Made in Canada, 2022 Mid-drive system

[TomD]

Only available as a fat tire hard tail? Will it work with FS?

 

[Ken M]

I have an Izip Express which may have been the 1st ebike to separate the drive systems in a mid-drive (at least not like a DD or geared hub in the rear wheel does - I still like the idea of a really good DD Hub motor but an in-runner motor like this is simply a superior motor design to allow far better heat dissipation. Anyway, separating the motor and rider drive trains is the only way to optimize both but you will never hear that from Bosch, Yamaha, or Brose.

I think a cooler configuration would be to have dual belts with an IGH for the rider transmission but that would have pushed the development costs I'm guessing.

 

[Bubba zanetti]

Learn more please. Impressive.

 

[Deafcat]

I think a cooler configuration would be to have dual belts with an IGH for the rider transmission but that would have pushed the development costs I'm guessing.

Belts are totally possible on either or both sides, absolutely. Chains keep development simpler and are the best place to start (ideal for off-road too).

Full-suspension we also skipped over to keep things simple, and while Regen has been tested, we're holding back on that too due to unnecessary complexities... Simplicity is key.

 

[m@Robertson]

Yeah this looks really, really impressive. Stuff like belts are an afterthought. The bulletproof, proven solution in this segment is a kart chain.

Honestly I could care less about a faster emtb. They have those and they are called motorcycles. (or sur rons or whatever... its a code thats already been cracked so this is just another entrant in the field). On the other hand, for the commercial last mile delivery market, or the personal cargo bike / auto replacement segment... this is brand new... and gold.

 

[Johnny]

Belts are totally possible on either or both sides, absolutely. Chains keep development simpler and are the best place to start (ideal for off-road too).

Full-suspension we also skipped over to keep things simple, and while Regen has been tested, we're holding back on that too due to unnecessary complexities... Simplicity is key.

Looks nice, can you tell us about the weight of the system ?

 

[Marcela]

160 mm is pretty short on the crank arms.

Where can the alloy sprockets be sourced and can the motor sprocket be changed without special tools by the owner?

How much pedaling drag in the motor unassist mode?

Weight of the bike?

$20 shipping on the reservation? Must be canadian exchange rate.

 

[JCofMN]

ALL SET! xd.biktrix.com

Happy Twosday!!

As Ravi Kempaiah previously pointed out, the key to the rideability of this dual channel power delivery design is matching the torque sensing PAS tuning on the human pedaled right side to the left’s fixed gear’d power delivery. I assume much of your two year development time was devoted to shakedown/tuning of the controller and its programming. So some obvious questions are: is the controller a proprietary board integrated internally to the motor a la the Bafang Ultra or an external box like an ASI BAC 855? Either way, are the ride characteristics going to be accessible/tunable by the user? For example, I assume your initial offering fat hardtail is tuned to emulate say your full suspension Juggernaut pro, just hot rodded up with more power, but if I wanted to use it as a hunting bike to tow a trailer, etc. are the characteristics of the lower granny gears could easily be reset?

A suggestion: The whole question of pedal feel/rideability as a bicycle for those of us who don’t use the throttle much (I have a Zero DSR for that) might be partially answered if you arranged for some well known outside reviewers like Court and his cohorts to review your prototypes.

 

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

Outstanding effort and beyond impressive. Both the Valeo and this dual drive XD are radical game changers. Well done and congrats on this effort. Now for the long term reliability testing.

Each state in the USA has undergone a very long battle for ebike owners, advocates and riders for the right to ride on the same bike paths as the analog bikes can. There are many more municipalities who have still banned ebikes on their trails or MUP's; why? There are no concrete reasons as to why except for this idea perpetuated by the hardcore analog crowd (especially analog MTB'rs) that every ebike has the ability to do what this bike actually does.

Wondering how you folks plan to address that issue; state by state? Any ideas on a "Valet Key", like a few factory hot rod cars had in them, to cut the power when required? I would tell ya to go to the Ebikes forum over on MTBR, but with the kind of power put out by this bike, they would have you banned by lunchtime for violating their power standards-250-500watt motors max. And there would be a heck of a lot of butt hurt analogers there protesting the utter craziness of this design.

I absolutely love it. But it does seem like changing a rear flat tire might look like a three ring juggling circus!

 

[Ken M]

Belts are totally possible on either or both sides, absolutely. Chains keep development simpler and are the best place to start (ideal for off-road too).

Full-suspension we also skipped over to keep things simple, and while Regen has been tested, we're holding back on that too due to unnecessary complexities... Simplicity is key.

You did some really smart things with this design. If you can have adapter brackets to mount in place of Bosch, Yamaha, Brose, and Bafang mids that will keep you from trying to get the OEMs to create a different frame just for your motor which is a big entry barrier for any new mid-drive (I think this is what killed Kervelo's, Sach's, Continental's, mid-drive efforts and is impacting Revonte's as well). I think that is one of your goals. You should investigate progressive regen to eliminate the need for a rear brake to simplify the bike more (just oversize the front).

I've always known that the only way to optimize the drive systems of the motor and rider was to separate them so just your dual drive design should win you business. I may want to talk to you (I have a partner in Canada as well) about how we could maybe help out ... find a win-win somehow. We are working on a "simple" high torque (over 300nM rated) 3 and 5 speed IGH that obviously targets the Bafang M620 segment but it may be a good fit for your ebikes even with rider power separated. That said I would help promote your product in the US (want a 749W "rating", multimode programming to allow riding everywhere to satisfy those that insist that 3-class is the future even thought it's a horrible legislative system, etc.). I do have some information on regulatory status of HR727 "LSEBs" that may be helpful to your US efforts as well.

 

[Ken M]

As Ravi Kempaiah previously pointed out, the key to the rideability of this dual channel power delivery design is matching the torque sensing PAS tuning on the human pedaled right side to the left’s fixed gear’d power delivery. I assume much of your two year development time was devoted to shakedown/tuning of the controller and its programming. So some obvious questions are: is the controller a proprietary board integrated internally to the motor a la the Bafang Ultra or an external box like an ASI BAC 855? Either way, are the ride characteristics going to be accessible/tunable by the user? For example, I assume your initial offering fat hardtail is tuned to emulate say your full suspension Juggernaut pro, just hot rodded up with more power, but if I wanted to use it as a hunting bike to tow a trailer, etc. are the characteristics of the lower granny gears could easily be reset?

A suggestion: The whole question of pedal feel/rideability as a bicycle for those of us who don’t use the throttle much (I have a Zero DSR for that) might be partially answered if you arranged for some well known outside reviewers like Court and his cohorts to review your prototypes.

I really get confused as to why so many claim that you can't use a throttle and still get a "bike-like" ride experience. I have an ebike that has both throttle and PAS and I found that riding it in throttle mode was the only way I could get the assist level I wanted in every riding situation and once I got use to idea of riding as a bike my control of the throttle became 2nd nature. This is just my opinion but I just don't think any amount of sensors and programming will enable a PAS to provide the assist that is best for all riding situations (I think it's more about programmer's ego thinking they can do this better than the rider with a throttle....good luck with that dream).

I think too many riders think that an ebike with a throttle means something you don't pedal....it's just provides the option to not have to pedal but I assure everyone that you can combine rider and motor power (via throttle) and have a bike like riding experience. Don't drink the marketing koolaid that a torque sensing PAS is needed or better than a throttle. I'm not saying that PAS is bad but I truly question the merits when compared to the simplicity of a throttle and how quickly your brain adapts to blending assist and leg power.

 

[JCofMN]

I really get confused as to why so many claim that you can't use a throttle and still get a "bike-like" ride experience. I have an ebike that has both throttle and PAS and I found that riding it in throttle mode was the only way I could get the assist level I wanted in every riding situation and once I got use to idea of riding as a bike my control of the throttle became 2nd nature. This is just my opinion but I just don't think any amount of sensors and programming will enable a PAS to provide the assist that is best for all riding situations (I think it's more about programmer's ego thinking they can do this better than the rider with a throttle....good luck with that dream).

I think too many riders think that an ebike with a throttle means something you don't pedal....it's just provides the option to not have to pedal but I assure everyone that you can combine rider and motor power (via throttle) and have a bike like riding experience. Don't drink the marketing koolaid that a torque sensing PAS is needed or better than a throttle. I'm not saying that PAS is bad but I truly question the merits when compared to the simplicity of a throttle and how quickly your brain adapts to blending assist and leg power.

I don't want to quibble over a matter of semantics but by “bike-like experience” my interpretation is that the main power to the ground man-machine interface is through the pedals just like the bike the Wright Brothers rode long ago. The human factors problem is more like controlling the power to an artificial limb (i.e. your legs) with enough feedback to remain linear (i.e. no oscillation as you pedal,”jerkiness, etc.) so you can sense and modulate the amplification factor intuitively. Controlling this via a hand throttle breaks this loop. Throttles are fine, especially for many styles of bikes like scramblers not really meant to be pedaled, if that's what you love to ride.

 

[scrambler]

I really get confused as to why so many claim that you can't use a throttle and still get a "bike-like" ride experience. I have an ebike that has both throttle and PAS and I found that riding it in throttle mode was the only way I could get the assist level I wanted in every riding situation and once I got use to idea of riding as a bike my control of the throttle became 2nd nature. This is just my opinion but I just don't think any amount of sensors and programming will enable a PAS to provide the assist that is best for all riding situations (I think it's more about programmer's ego thinking they can do this better than the rider with a throttle....good luck with that dream).

I think too many riders think that an ebike with a throttle means something you don't pedal....it's just provides the option to not have to pedal but I assure everyone that you can combine rider and motor power (via throttle) and have a bike like riding experience. Don't drink the marketing koolaid that a torque sensing PAS is needed or better than a throttle. I'm not saying that PAS is bad but I truly question the merits when compared to the simplicity of a throttle and how quickly your brain adapts to blending assist and leg power.

I have a different take on that, based on personal preference.

I have and want a bike with both Throttle and PAS, but because I want to be able to enjoy the bike both ways.
Most of the time I want to enjoy pedaling the bike in the most natural way using my strength just multiplied by the PAS, But Sometimes I want to be able to enjoy the bike as a light motorcycle with just the throttle (which means fairly powerful motor).

While I agree one can get use to using the throttle to compensate for a bad PAS system, when you do have a good PAS system, I find it much more enjoyable to have your hands free for difficult MTB maneuvering, while feeling superhuman powering the bike with the pedaling.

A key element for PAS, is the fact that there are mostly two different situations.

• Pedaling at regular speed on streets or leisure trails, where the PAS should favor the cadence sensing input and provide a base constant power assist with peaks on torque.
• And rough MTB situation, where you want the PAS to be mostly using the Torque sensing input, so you have instant activation and cutoff of the assist with the pressure on the pedals and assist power proportional to the effort, so it feels natural.

All you need is a system that combines these two types of sensing and offer programming so you can have a few different modes for different situations.

The quality of the PAS on this new motor and whether they offer some level of customization with the programming will be key in my mind.

 

[scrambler]

Now @Deafcat can you give us more details about the new motor ?

1. You said you have not implemented regen for now, but is the motor configured to eventually support it, which means there is no freewheel on the motor side?
2. Will you actually be selling that motor by itself right away, or for now it will just be for your own bikes?
3. If selling the motor by itself right away:
   1. Will you also sell either rear hubs with Inegrated carrier for the motor sprocket, or carrier adapter to support the brake rotor and motor sprocket on existing hubs?
   2. Will you offer the possibility to customize some of the pedal assist programming?
   3. What is the smallest Pedaling chain line (center of bike to center of front sprocket in position closest to the motor)?
   4. What is the Motor Chain line (Center of bike to center of motor sprocket)?

Thanks

 

[Deafcat]

160 mm is pretty short on the crank arms.

Where can the alloy sprockets be sourced and can the motor sprocket be changed without special tools by the owner?

How much pedaling drag in the motor unassist mode?

Weight of the bike?

$20 shipping on the reservation? Must be canadian exchange rate.

Weight of the bike is currently 28kg (61 pounds) not including choice of battery.

Rear power sprocket is expected to last life of the bike, but can be replaced with conventional 219 kart sprockets (6 bolt pattern, one-piece). typical metric fasteners.

Pedaling drag is quite low, we've had a few guys ride 10+km without any power whatsoever. Freewheeling at the motor.

Shipping on reservation is a bug, working that out right now for both US and CAD orders. The reservation cost will be deducted from final order prior to shipping


Note: Off-road edition XD is throttle-only in stock config, no PAS included. We really like these with RH twist throttles. The complete PAS system will be revealed fairly soon, and should be optional by Summer.

 

[scrambler]

Note: Off-road edition XD is throttle-only, no PAS included. We really like these with RH twist throttles. The complete PAS system will be revealed fairly soon, and should be optional by Summer.

Are you saying PAS is just not available yet, or that it will never be an option for the Off-road version (unrestricted) version of the bike?
Because if so, that would be a weird limitation that could cost your buyers.

 

[Deafcat]

PAS will be an option for the Off-road edition.

 

[Edrummer]

Will rack and fenders be available?

 

[scrambler]

PAS will be an option for the Off-road edition.

Sounds good

 

[BrianK]

Is a gravel or commuter version on the near horizon? Detuned, of course.