New motor: Made in Canada, 2022 Mid-drive system

[J.R.]

Maybe in your mind? You said "If we don't like the law we have to lobby to change it."

I was thinking we don't need to change the class laws if we choose to ignore them, legally....

That would be an option to changing them, no?

What does the Florida law and where they allow ebikes to ride have to do with state 3 class definitions? They didn't ignore them they wrote law to allow them to ride where bikes are allowed. Non sequitur to the discussion. The post was about definitions, which haven't changed. The 3 class law is a state law, not a federal law. Florida chose to regulate where they can ride, just like every other 3 class state. It would be better to class them as ebikes and speed pedelecs than to have 3 classes. Seems to have taken forever to get anything legalized in many states, I don't see them ditching it all and starting over.

Ignoring them does nothing for the greater ebike community. Most people want to obey laws. They wouldn't consider riding an illegal vehicle. That does nothing to advance ebikes to mainstream adoption. Most people aren't willing to chance a large fine, can't afford to take off work to fight it in court. Most people aren't willing to chance having a $3000 bike confiscated.

 

[AHicks]

What does the Florida law and where they allow ebikes to ride have to do with state 3 class definitions? They didn't ignore them they wrote law to allow them to ride where bikes are allowed. Non sequitur to the discussion. The post was about definitions, which haven't changed. The 3 class law is a state law, not a federal law. Florida chose to regulate where they can ride, just like every other 3 class state. It would be better to class them as ebikes and speed pedelecs than to have 3 classes. Seems to have taken forever to get anything legalized in many states, I don't see them ditching it all and starting over.

Ignoring them does nothing for the greater ebike community. Most people want to obey laws. They wouldn't consider riding an illegal vehicle. That does nothing to advance ebikes to mainstream adoption. Most people aren't willing to chance a large fine, can't afford to take off work to fight it in court. Most people aren't willing to chance having a $3000 bike confiscated.

On the bold, that's smoke and mirrors/fear mongering. Please document the cases where that's happened for the 3 class law rule violations.

Once again, I'll ask you to consider that Florida's "ride anywhere" law was created/put into place while the "3 class" laws were largely being totally ignored by "most" riders.

I would say "most" people want to/try to abide by laws that make sense. Put something in place that makes some sense and I would very likely be one of them. I think "most" will agree that the current 3 class system is a knee jerk reaction that is ignored by "most" as it clearly makes no sense at all and for that reason is rarely enforced....

 

[J.R.]

On the bold, that's smoke and mirrors/fear mongering.

You think that from your armchair. In the rooms where laws and enforcement are discussed, that always on the table. Theory is not practical experience.

I'm done. You always want to argue over this and I only posted the 3 class definitions.

 

[jabberwocky]

On the bold, that's smoke and mirrors/fear mongering. Please document the cases where that's happened for the 3 class law rule violations.

FWIW, I know its been threatened against a few individuals riding non-compliant bikes on park trails in my area. At least two have been ticketed for trespassing, and told if caught again their bike would be confiscated. Its probably not common (at the moment) but its definitely a not an unrealistic concern.

 

[mschwett]

On the bold, that's smoke and mirrors/fear mongering. Please document the cases where that's happened for the 3 class law rule violations.

i am trying to think if i’ve ever heard of this, ever, and i can’t say i have. i’m guessing it happens on federal land where rangers are trained to keep high power eMTB off trails. i’ve been pulled over twice on a bike, the officer didn’t even look at the bike in either case, for what it’s worth. california does have laws about reflectors and lights and various other things that i’m sure i don’t comply with. on anything but natural resource area trails, the class laws seem pretty unenforced and almost unenforceable. without the requirement for registration, insurance, inspection, you can just put a sticker on the thing.

 

[jabberwocky]

i am trying to think if i’ve ever heard of this, ever, and i can’t say i have. i’m guessing it happens on federal land where rangers are trained to keep high power eMTB off trails. i’ve been pulled over twice on a bike, the officer didn’t even look at the bike in either case, for what it’s worth. california does have laws about reflectors and lights and various other things that i’m sure i don’t comply with. on anything but natural resource area trails, the class laws seem pretty unenforced and almost unenforceable. without the requirement for registration, insurance, inspection, you can just put a sticker on the thing.

I've been told the local park police/rangers, if they stop you, just lookup the make/model of the bike to see its specs. They aren't idiots, believe it or not.

 

[mschwett]

I've been told the local park police/rangers, if they stop you, just lookup the make/model of the bike to see its specs. They aren't idiots, believe it or not.

smart! i wouldn’t think they’re idiots, they just work in a system that doesn’t encourage intelligence.

parks and various natural resource areas seem more likely locales for enforcement. i’m not sure if we have any MUPs that specifically prohibit class 2 or 3, but there are definitely some paths that specify no e-bikes at all, period. never seen any enforcement though. we recently got a 15mph speed limit on the bike path of the golden gate bridge, and an explicit “all e-bikes OK” policy. there is enforcement but i haven’t gotten a ticket yet.

 

[jabberwocky]

Enforcement happens where enough people call for it. The mountainbike crowd is understandably protective of their trails, because most of them were built by those mountainbikers after an enormous investment of advocacy time, and are maintained by them as well (the local IMBA affiliate does several thousand man-hours of trailwork each year). But theres nothing saying that couldn't translate to the local MUPs, bike lanes, etc if enough conflict happens and enough people call for it. I'm not personally bullish on the current enforcement regime lasting forever, though I personally think any crackdown is going to be less "police patrolling the MUP" and more "going after the importers and sellers of non-compliant bikes and parts" just because its way easier to do.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

No state that adopted the 3 class law allows throttle on class 3.







Everyone knows and agrees class 1 doesn't allow throttle. The law states pedal assist, no throttle is mentioned. Class 2 explicitly states throttle is allowed. And class 3 only mentions pedal assist, no throttle is mentioned. Class 1 and 3 regs are identical except for top speed and speedometer. There is no hybrid class 2/3.

Ebike sellers have really confused consumers on the issue. California, the first 3 class law in the country, has been around for nearly 7 years now. Every state copied this law for specifications of classes. If we don't like the law we have to lobby to change it.

"Everything which is not forbidden is allowed" - an axiomatic constitutional principle.
So, if Federal Rules don't say you can't, you can - unless the States say's 'no'.
If State conflicts with Federal rule - in form, result or principle - suit arises.
States have enacted State ebike Laws.
My synopsis of Federal rules and the common understanding is accurate, but I'm sure there are DUI attorneys arguing to the contrary.
Most States simply defer to Federal standards, but yes there is some ambiguity - unless you start with that 'pre-law' education axiom (usually learned in a first year logic class).
Lawmakers are deliberately ambiguous to allow states to set their own rules.
What's a 'hybrid class'?
I'm old n' slow, so sudden dis-associative nomenclature loses me - like references to obscure 1921 Latvian Sci-fi movie.
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Indeed 'If we don't like the law we have to lobby to change it', which is exactly why we can't have bicycle purist fanatics setting rules and restrictions for ebikes. They don't want us to have fun. They demand we suffer their leg cramps.
Maybe I'll lobby a bit. Make it know disabled vets, elders and other citizens are being told 'no throttle allowed' - tough about that one leg though. With no studies showing any need for such rules .... and the cost of enforcement, training etc, to arrest a paraplegic?
I suggest they simply limit all cycles to 28mph - and same as cars: 10 - 20% leeway, depending on our driving/ conditions?
I disagree with penalizing anyone swooping down a long turn at 35mph, 'throttle', 'pedaling their brains out' or 'coasting'.
Our rights are not predicate on our fitness?
My Libertarian view dictates the danger's in restricting entry to the cycling experience, not protecting it as an inherited right.
How many eBikes are sold in the US in 2021?
NPD's data also shows e-bike sales continuing to rise in 2021, with 368,000 units sold through the first 11 months of the year.
Ask the People.

Which after the newness (hysteria in some communities) cools down a bike is a bike and a speed limit a speed limit.

For sure. Analog must share and so must ebikes.
We still have 'horse trails' ???
We have sufficient laws - for now. It's gonna get crowded.
We live in a Golden Era of ebikes. Being old and cranky at times, I'm qualified to say it. The potential to break the rules doesn't make you Frank Nitty - on meth (in a 427 Cobra SCI).
I have to admit I had and elder lady (on a scooter puff - puff - puffing 'cancer rings')
My reaction was to apologize and give her the right of way. 100% Genuine. That's her cycling experience. No pedals. maybe she'll go electric and be a class 1? But then, she was upset she couldn't catch my 1000'wattf?' bike up that three-block-long hill.

You can do as you will. I'm not promoting anything, just stating reality of what exists. People aren't working to change anything, they just ignore it until forced to do something. I didn't expect you would like my post, but the information is accurate.

Exactly my point. There are correct, but differing points of view and interpretation.
To the contrary. I found your post likable.
I dislike restricting capability. Better to punish misuse. Carrot and stick.