New motor: Made in Canada, 2022 Mid-drive system

[Ken M]

Ken, you go for your throttle only preference. Nobody here saying you can't/aren't allowed. I'm pretty sure some will even follow/agree with you. Just don't expect it to be real popular/universal given the other options.

"the programming has to make assumptions about how much assist is desired based on a sensor parameter that is not tied to rider effort in reality"
This is a wild guess on your part, and typical of the other misleading comments you've written. It's not accurate at all. It would be nice if you would take a time out and teach yourself how a controller really does work, or ask enough questions to build a better understanding prior to making more comments like this.

Until you get into the more exotic (expensive) stuff, there are only 2 sensors telling the controller what's going on. They are speed, and the other is cadence. That's it. Everything else is based on logic/programming (or lack of it).

And last, pretty sure there are others coming here to read about a new motor, NOT controller basics 101. Maybe we could move this conversation to a topic of it own? -Al

This came up as a result of the new dual drive system only having a throttle to begin with and the future option to add PAS.

Here's what a professional says about cadence (not from me).
When pedals are turned slowly with lots of force, muscles tire quickly – not getting enough oxygen and blood to maintain the effort for long. Riding with a too high gear ratio, turning pedals slowly is similar to jumping from standing still – with both legs: lots of power in a short time, but quickly exhausting.

Turning pedals quickly, in a lower gear ratio is similar to walking fast, or running: heart and lungs work harder, but the effort can be maintained for a lot longer. And it quickly improves with training.

Optimal number of revolutions per minute is between 80 and 100 – depending on individual body and the level of training. The main function of changing gear ratios is remaining in that optimal range. Steep climbs are exception and revolutions often drop below 50 rpm, but on long climbs it helps having gearing “slow” enough to enable over 60 rpm.

Some were claiming cadence-only assist could be done effectively. I questioned that just based on the information above. Now you are adding speed as an input but there are still ???s on if the bike path is most straight or winding. Listen, I just ??? that there is a good PAS that doesn't include rider torque effort as an input because at least that is an indicator or the effort they providing as prediction for how much assist they want.

I truly believe that throttle-assist ebikes have been given a bad rap because so many have equated them to just riding like a motorcycle and not pedaling. Yes you can ride like that but you can also pedal and just feather the throttle to the assist you want while pedaling the entire time. I'm just making sure that throttle-assist only is not given a bad rap because the big players want to sell more complicated hardware.

 

[JCofMN]

Matching the torque input from the pedal side to the torque output of the drive side (motor side) would require precise tuning and it would be great to see someone doing this properly.
Most dual drives are not optimized for torque-sensing pedal assist. They are just motorcycles with pedals.

See

for what Biktrix is shipping to early adopters. With the rack and fenders they seem to try to marketing this as an urban electric moped rather than a Suron challenger. No mention at all of a torque based PAS development schedule, just that dual batteries are a priority.

 

[JRA]

When Q factor becomes the X factor? As shown pedaling isn't the priority with this system I suppose.....no doubt a ripper but is it really necessary for a bicycle class device? Just not sure where this bike slots into the eBike realm legally. I would like to see that drive system implemented in a cargo type bike though.

 

[tomjasz]

Early adopters. Vegas odds.

 

[mschwett]

cool machine for many, but not a bike. 2000w, no pedaling required, completely independent motor->wheel drivetrain. put a license plate on it and ride it with the rest of the motor vehicles, or off road!

 

[Fast n' Furious]

Ken, you go for your throttle only preference. Nobody here saying you can't/aren't allowed. I'm pretty sure some will even follow/agree with you. Just don't expect it to be real popular/universal given the other options.

"the programming has to make assumptions about how much assist is desired based on a sensor parameter that is not tied to rider effort in reality"
This is a wild guess on your part, and typical of the other misleading comments you've written. It's not accurate at all. It would be nice if you would take a time out and teach yourself how a controller really does work, or ask enough questions to build a better understanding prior to making more comments like this.

Until you get into the more exotic (expensive) stuff, there are only 2 sensors telling the controller what's going on. They are speed, and the other is cadence. That's it. Everything else is based on logic/programming (or lack of it).

And last, pretty sure there are others coming here to read about a new motor, NOT controller basics 101. Maybe we could move this conversation to a topic of it own? -Al

HaHaHa. Throttle hatin' - again and again and again.
It's already a real popular option. On 98% of ebikes produced. You didn't know?
How you 'teach yourself' about throttles? Imaginary fantasy, or starting with a a preconceived firm conclusion?
I think his posts are on time.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

See

for what Biktrix is shipping to early adopters. With the rack and fenders they seem to try to marketing this as an urban electric moped rather than a Suron challenger. No mention at all of a torque based PAS development schedule, just that dual batteries are a priority.

My favorite "Why Not".

why not just buy a motorcycle ???​

https://electrek.co/2022/02/23/biktrix-xd-unveiled-as-mind-bogglingly-powerful-electric-bike-motor-with-300-nm-of-torque/ Love the way they put it.

"With such high power electric bicycles, I often hear people ask, “Why not just buy a motorcycle?” And while I understand the confusion, those people are missing the point. The crux of e-bikes like these is that they aren’t just for going fast, accelerating quickly, or climbing previously unclimbable peaks. They’re for providing a cycling experience. You get the feel of actually pedaling, just with the result being so much more powerful. Think of it like a mech suit for your legs.

It’d be like asking a wing suit flyer, “Why don’t you just buy a plane ticket?” The point isn’t to just go high or fast in the sky – it’s to feel like you’re flying. And with high power e-bikes, it’s to get the cycling experience, but with much more extreme performance.

Which one sounds like more fun?"

My problem is weight, but the use of motorcycle grade chains is the cure for a lot of problems.
At the extremes is where innovation comes and for HP G510 drivetrains it's sorely needed.

Fn'F

 

[mschwett]

…They’re for providing a cycling experience. You get the feel of actually pedaling, just with the result being so much more powerful.

… but how much of the cycling experience do you get when the contribution of your pedaling to your speed is essentially nil? that’s the moped experience - still a useful and fun kind of transport, but not cycling. a bicycle which amplifies your pedal power retains that feeling. pedal harder, go faster. encounter a hill, pedal harder to maintain speed. stop pedaling, you coast and/or stop. a totally independent drive system linked to a button does not provide this experience. a cadence sensor bike provides some of it, but not all of it. i personally think a better mode for utilitarian urban transport is a “multiplier button” where you still have to pedal, but the amplification ratio goes way up when needed. but you still pedal as the primary power scaling input.

again, not saying there isn’t a place for such vehicles. but “a cycling experience?” only a little bit.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

Ken, consider the average e-bike sold/operated today. Throttle only? Nope. Torque sensing? Nope.

Most controllers will NOT accept the additional data from a torque sensor. Not yet anyway.

I own and ride an Ultra powered mid drive bike with torque sensing, and agree they're great (when the controller is set up properly, that's NOT how you're going to get one). I also ride/own a similarly powered geared hub driven bike (1000w+), but it has a much more sophisticated aftermarket controller by Kunteng (aka KT). Not perfect by a long shot, but WAY better programming/adjustability than the 2 examples you drove. Interesting, as KT does this with internal PROGRAMMING. There is NO difference in the hardware used on this bike vs. the bikes you rode, other than the programming internal to the controller.

Bottom line, the controllers are not nearly as simple as what you seem to think. There's a LOT going on in that little box. The issue is the market is young and people are accepting the junk programming that is available in today's average hub driven bike. As it matures, more people will realize just how terrible that programming really is, and start demanding better - possibly including the option to install a torque sensor. -Al

You started with the false conclusion "... consider the average e-bike sold/operated today. Throttle only? Nope."

That's from 2016 dated information. Even Pedego says: [our] Electric bikes typically offer two types of motor engagement: pedal assist and throttle. With pedal assist, the motor engages only when the pedals are being rotated. Alternatively, the throttle option engages the motor whether you are pedalling or not. Jul 17, 2021. I've been to a few retailer LBS's and noted all their newer bikes had throttles.
Class 1 ebikes, limited to 20 miles per hour, and the electric motor works only when the rider is pedaling. A bike that has an electric motor that assists only during pedaling is called a pedelec.
Class 2 ebikes, also limited to 20 miles per hour, but they have throttles that work when you're not pedaling. Most Class 2 ebikes offer electrically assisted pedaling alongside throttles. So all Class 2 bikes have throttles.
Class 3 ebikes can go up to 28 miles per hour and must have a speedometer, but may or may not have a throttle. It depends on the state writing the rules. Generally, throttles are allowed as long as they only work up to 20 miles per hour, while pedal-assisted electric power continues up to 28 miles per hour.
A Class 3 machine's throttle, restricted to 20mph produces just what it's supposed to. Great fun with pedaling and TS.

 

[kevinmccune]

Glad its made in CA, the caveat is this thing is going to be expensive

 

[Fast n' Furious]

… but how much of the cycling experience do you get when the contribution of your pedaling to your speed is essentially nil? that’s the moped experience - still a useful and fun kind of transport, but not cycling. a bicycle which amplifies your pedal power retains that feeling. pedal harder, go faster. encounter a hill, pedal harder to maintain speed. stop pedaling, you coast and/or stop. a totally independent drive system linked to a button does not provide this experience. a cadence sensor bike provides some of it, but not all of it. i personally think a better mode for utilitarian urban transport is a “multiplier button” where you still have to pedal, but the amplification ratio goes way up when needed. but you still pedal as the primary power scaling input.

again, not saying there isn’t a place for such vehicles. but “a cycling experience?” only a little bit.

100%? I dunno? All the fun parts ? like: The power to blast up small hill's ?? The ability to accelerate exiting a corner without pedal strikes and from stops at a reasonable pace of traffic ??? Getting to work smelling reasonable ???? The ability to pedal no less "harder" than you and go fast.
I would never have touched the cycling experience again - but for Class III ebikes.
Ebike's opened up the door for millions to partake of the "cycling experience" and you still get a good workout from high power 1,000+ watt e-bikes.
They have your 'amplifier'. It's called a Pedelec w/ torque sensor. Set the controller to level 1 of 5. Set submenu 0 - 5 input, up 15% each level.
The 'level' button on your display is now your 'multiplier button'. 0 is off.
A torque sensor bike detects how hard you are pedaling and the controller/motor will then provide a set multiple of that pedaling force.
It's a cadence sensor, you only have to pretend to be pedaling to get full power.

 

[J.R.]

Class 3 ebikes can go up to 28 miles per hour and must have a speedometer, but may or may not have a throttle. It depends on the state writing the rules. Generally, throttles are allowed as long as they only work up to 20 miles per hour, while pedal-assisted electric power continues up to 28 miles per hour.

No state that adopted the 3 class law allows throttle on class 3.

1) A “class 1 electric bicycle,” or “low-speed pedal-assisted electric bicycle,” is a bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling, and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 20 miles per hour.

(2) A “class 2 electric bicycle,” or “low-speed throttle-assisted electric bicycle,” is a bicycle equipped with a motor that may be used exclusively to propel the bicycle, and that is not capable of providing assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 20 miles per hour.

(3) A “class 3 electric bicycle,” or “speed pedal-assisted electric bicycle,” is a bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling, and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 28 miles per hour, and equipped with a speedometer.

Everyone knows and agrees class 1 doesn't allow throttle. The law states pedal assist, no throttle is mentioned. Class 2 explicitly states throttle is allowed. And class 3 only mentions pedal assist, no throttle is mentioned. Class 1 and 3 regs are identical except for top speed and speedometer. There is no hybrid class 2/3.

Ebike sellers have really confused consumers on the issue. California, the first 3 class law in the country, has been around for nearly 7 years now. Every state copied this law for specifications of classes. If we don't like the law we have to lobby to change it.

 

[AHicks]

No state that adopted the 3 class law allows throttle on class 3.

Everyone knows and agrees class 1 doesn't allow throttle. The law states pedal assist, no throttle is mentioned. Class 2 explicitly states throttle is allowed. And class 3 only mentions pedal assist, no throttle is mentioned. Class 1 and 3 regs are identical except for top speed and speedometer. There is no hybrid class 2/3.

Ebike sellers have really confused consumers on the issue. California, the first 3 class law in the country, has been around for nearly 7 years now. Every state copied this law for specifications of classes. If we don't like the law we have to lobby to change it.

Change it or ignore it....

Florida adopted the 3 class system - then put it on the back burner saying ANY e-bike can be ridden anywhere a bicycle can.

 

[Mulezen]

Change it or ignore it....

Florida adopted the 3 class system - then put it on the back burner saying ANY e-bike can be ridden anywhere a bicycle can.

Which after the newness (hysteria in some communities) cools down a bike is a bike and a speed limit a speed limit.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

No state that adopted the 3 class law allows throttle on class 3.







Everyone knows and agrees class 1 doesn't allow throttle. The law states pedal assist, no throttle is mentioned. Class 2 explicitly states throttle is allowed. And class 3 only mentions pedal assist, no throttle is mentioned. Class 1 and 3 regs are identical except for top speed and speedometer. There is no hybrid class 2/3.

Ebike sellers have really confused consumers on the issue. California, the first 3 class law in the country, has been around for nearly 7 years now. Every state copied this law for specifications of classes. If we don't like the law we have to lobby to change it.

"Everything which is not forbidden is allowed" - an axiomatic constitutional principle.
So, if Federal Rules don't say you can't, you can - unless the States say's 'no'.
If State conflicts with Federal rule - in form, result or principle - suit arises.
States have enacted State ebike Laws.
My synopsis of Federal rules and the common understanding is accurate, but I'm sure there are DUI attorneys arguing to the contrary.
Most States simply defer to Federal standards, but yes there is some ambiguity - unless you start with that 'pre-law' education axiom (usually learned in a first year logic class).
Lawmakers are deliberately ambiguous to allow states to set their own rules.
What's a 'hybrid class'?
I'm old n' slow, so sudden dis-associative nomenclature loses me - like references to obscure 1921 Latvian Sci-fi movie.
-
Indeed 'If we don't like the law we have to lobby to change it', which is exactly why we can't have bicycle purist fanatics setting rules and restrictions for ebikes. They don't want us to have fun. They demand we suffer their leg cramps.
Maybe I'll lobby a bit. Make it know disabled vets, elders and other citizens are being told 'no throttle allowed' - tough about that one leg though. With no studies showing any need for such rules .... and the cost of enforcement, training etc, to arrest a paraplegic?
I suggest they simply limit all cycles to 28mph - and same as cars: 10 - 20% leeway, depending on our driving/ conditions?
I disagree with penalizing anyone swooping down a long turn at 35mph, 'throttle', 'pedaling their brains out' or 'coasting'.
Our rights are not predicate on our fitness?
My Libertarian view dictates the danger's in restricting entry to the cycling experience, not protecting it as an inherited right.
How many eBikes are sold in the US in 2021?
NPD's data also shows e-bike sales continuing to rise in 2021, with 368,000 units sold through the first 11 months of the year.
Ask the People.

Which after the newness (hysteria in some communities) cools down a bike is a bike and a speed limit a speed limit.

And throttles have naught to do with it.

 

[J.R.]

Change it or ignore it....

Florida adopted the 3 class system - then put it on the back burner saying ANY e-bike can be ridden anywhere a bicycle can.

Didn't suggest where they can ride. What they are never changed anywhere.

 

[J.R.]

"Everything which is not forbidden is allowed" - an axiomatic constitutional principle.
So, if Federal Rules don't say you can't, you can - unless the States say's 'no'.
If State conflicts with Federal rule - in form, result or principle - suit arises.
States have enacted State ebike Laws.
My synopsis of Federal rules and the common understanding is accurate, but I'm sure there are DUI attorneys arguing to the contrary.
Most States simply defer to Federal standards, but yes there is some ambiguity - unless you start with that 'pre-law' education axiom (usually learned in a first year logic class).
Lawmakers are deliberately ambiguous to allow states to set their own rules.
What's a 'hybrid class'?
I'm old n' slow, so sudden dis-associative nomenclature loses me - like references to obscure 1921 Latvian Sci-fi movie.
-
Indeed 'If we don't like the law we have to lobby to change it', which is exactly why we can't have bicycle purist fanatics setting rules and restrictions for ebikes. They don't want us to have fun. They demand we suffer their leg cramps.
Maybe I'll lobby a bit. Make it know disabled vets, elders and other citizens are being told 'no throttle allowed' - tough about that one leg though. With no studies showing any need for such rules .... and the cost of enforcement, training etc, to arrest a paraplegic?
I suggest they simply limit all cycles to 28mph - and same as cars: 10 - 20% leeway, depending on our driving/ conditions?
I disagree with penalizing anyone swooping down a long turn at 35mph, 'throttle', 'pedaling their brains out' or 'coasting'.
Our rights are not predicate on our fitness?
My Libertarian view dictates the danger's in restricting entry to the cycling experience, not protecting it as an inherited right.
How many eBikes are sold in the US in 2021?
NPD's data also shows e-bike sales continuing to rise in 2021, with 368,000 units sold through the first 11 months of the year.
Ask the People.

And throttles have naught to do with it.

You can do as you will. I'm not promoting anything, just stating reality of what exists. People aren't working to change anything, they just ignore it until forced to do something. I didn't expect you would like my post, but the information is accurate.

 

[AHicks]

Didn't suggest where they can ride. What they are never changed anywhere.

huh?

 

[J.R.]

huh?

Read back. Someone suggested a class 3 can have a throttle. I posted why they can't; class definitions of the 3 class law. You responded to my definition post with where all ebikes can ride in Florida. I never suggested where the classes can ride, only what they are.

The poster suggesting class 3 can have throttle is in California, where all this started in 2015. The definitions haven't changed. They only mean something in states that regulate where the classes can ride, like California.

Your response to my post was a non sequitur.

 

[AHicks]

Maybe in your mind? You said "If we don't like the law we have to lobby to change it."

I was thinking we don't need to change the class laws if we choose to ignore them, legally....

That would be an option to changing them, no?