New motor: Made in Canada, 2022 Mid-drive system

[JRA]

This thread is so far off the rails that it has grown wings.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Sounds like a bike you could just ghost pedal in 1st gear given that assist level is only dependent on cadence. That is very much how my Izip Espress performs but it has a small generator at the crank that provides a variable voltage to the controller to substitute for throttle input to the controller.

My main point here is to illustrate there is a large variety of systems that are classified a PAS that could be just considered a variation of throttle-assist.

Yeah you could... but then you could do a lot of things.
But when using it as intended the controller provides varied motor output based on my cadence.
If I'm trekking along in 5th gear and PAS 5, it's usually proving approximately 0 - 50w on a flat... But as soon as I hit an incline, headwind or I start to tire it will compensate up to 500w dependant on how much I slow.
So then there’s that.

 

[tomjasz]

This thread is so far off the rails that it has grown wings.

So is this motor. As if mid-drives need to be that complex.

 

[Ken M]

This thread is so far off the rails that it has grown wings.

The assist issues arose out of those questioning the logic of this new mid-drive having throttle-assist only at first and later optional PAS. Clearly there are those that do not believe an ebike can have throttle-assist only because they equate that to be a motorcycle.

 

[scrambler]

So is this motor. As if mid-drives need to be that complex.

Apart from having a chain on the left, I really don't see any added complexity here. And internally there is actually a lot less complexity than in a motor like Bosch or Bafang....

 

[bexamous]

per the constraints of 170lb rider on level surface

That 170lb rider constraint is a bit wonky, on level ground weight has effectively nothing to do with speed.

 

[scrambler]

Clearly there are those that do not believe an ebike can have throttle-assist only because they equate that to be a motorcycle.

I think you are mis representing that to support your own personal extremist agenda on throttle assist

Everyone with a throttle and pedal assist know (and have experienced) they can use their throttle as a manual way to modulate the assist while they pedal, and especially the people with cadence only sensor PAS who need to constantly step assist up and down when terrain changes.
But a lot (most?) of these people also know they prefer to have the variable assist linked to the effort they put in, with a PAS that also include a Torque sensor. They find it simpler and more intuitive, and yes this is a matter of personal preference.

It is not they don't believe the throttle only cannot be use for PAS, it is just that they prefer a PAS linked to their pedaling effort.

Live and let live

 

[Ken M]

So is this motor. As if mid-drives need to be that complex.

That's it ..... they don't need to be that complex. Programmers keep adding sensors to convince us they have a better PAS. We now have systems that incorporate: 1) Torque 2) cadence 3) speed 4) gear 5) incline 6) heart rate and I predict soon rider and cargo weight will be added. Who knows they may actually add a strain gage to the seat post to measure rider weight to "automate" that parameter into to the mix of variables being fed dynamically to the controller. I'm just a voice saying maybe all we need is a throttle to directly control the assist we want and toss out the sensors and tell the programmers to find other jobs.

 

[Ken M]

own

No...you are mis-representing what I have written. I have simply stated from the start that I like the idea of the buyer being allowed to choose the assist technology they want on the ebike. Right now most of the big brand ebikes require the buyer to purchase the extra cost and complexity pedal-assist systems when maybe most of them would just select throttle assist if they knew the cost of PAS.

This new mid-drive is giving people that choice and some were being critical of that. Literally some were writing it's not an ebike mid-drive if throttle only.

 

[Ken M]

That 170lb rider constraint is a bit wonky, on level ground weight has effectively nothing to do with speed.

It's not wonky. It's actually very simple to determine what power level is needed on any ebike to sustain 20mph with a 170lb rider on a level surface and use that to govern the power when the ebike is going faster than 20mph. That is a lot more elegant solution than legislating the requirement for an assist cut-off at 20mph as People for Bikes used lobby money to get passed state by state.

When you make an incorrect claim as you did it's the same as the fake news we all dealing with these days. Sorry but your statement is simply technically WRONG.

 

[Gionnirocket]

This thread is so far off the rails that it has grown wings.

Then let's get back on track
So how are pre-sales doing?
We all know now that high resolution torque+cadence PAS is scheduled to arrive in the next boxcar.. so these last few pages are indeed moot.

 

[Jon A]

Clearly from the forum comments very few people seem to understand this (they think because a 250W motor can climb well at 5mph that current mid drives must be truly optimized).

You're probably better served sticking to whinging about "People for Bikes" in 20 different threads every day and taking a step back from technical arguments, the fundamentals of which you have no understanding.

 

[Ken M]

You're probably better served sticking to whinging about "People for Bikes" in 20 different threads every day and taking a step back from technical arguments, the fundamentals of which you have no understanding.

Are you arguing that I'm wrong that the only when separated can the motor and human power inputs be optimized? That's my opinion and it's obviously what Biktrix is saying as well.

Let me guess, you think a 750W motor rating is the maximum power an ebike drive system can provide. Are you willing to answer that question?

I have explained why I continue to hammer on People for Bikes - they simply went from being an advocacy organization to a paid lobby group pushing regulatory capture for clients. It happens all the time but I prefer that it be out in the open where people can decide for themselves to continue to support them. I have had personal conversations with the lawyer that worked with Dr. Currie starting in 1997 to move ebikes (later called "low speed electric bicycles" in HR727) from the NHTSA to the CPSC which benefits anyone that owns and rides an ebike. The bill passed one vote short of congressional consensus (keep in mind these are state representatives) so I have no comprehension why People for Bikes would not have 100% supported that bill and the LSEB definition as a bike.

 

[AHicks]

Are you arguing that I'm wrong that the only when separated can the motor and human power inputs be optimized? That's my opinion and it's obviously what Biktrix is saying as well.

Let me guess, you think a 750W motor rating is the maximum power an ebike drive system can provide. Are you willing to answer that question?

I have explained why I continue to hammer on People for Bikes - they simply went from being an advocacy organization to a paid lobby group pushing regulatory capture for clients. It happens all the time but I prefer that it be out in the open where people can decide for themselves to continue to support them. I have had personal conversations with the lawyer that worked with Dr. Currie starting in 1997 to move ebikes (later called "low speed electric bicycles" in HR727) from the NHTSA to the CPSC which benefits anyone that owns and rides an ebike. The bill passed one vote short of congressional consensus (keep in mind these are state representatives) so I have no comprehension why People for Bikes would not have 100% supported that bill and the LSEB definition as a bike.

You need to expand your attention span...... At this point I don't beleive I could give a damn about your thoughts on this topic, ESPECIALLY when presented in a manner where they are so far off topic.

 

[Ken M]

You need to expand your attention span...... At this point I don't beleive I could give a damn about your thoughts on this topic, ESPECIALLY when presented in a manner where they are so far off topic.

You have never liked that I questioned People for Bikes 3-class legislation because you think it provide you trail access. This new drive system can be LSEB compliant and/or 3-class compliant via software and multi-mode so my guess is some will ride it on class 1 trails but who knows if they'll have it in class 1 mode. Am I wrong?

 

[AHicks]

You have never liked that I questioned People for Bikes 3-class legislation because you think it provide you trail access. This new drive system can be LSEB compliant and/or 3-class compliant via software and multi-mode so my guess is some will ride it on class 1 trails but who knows if they'll have it in class 1 mode. Am I wrong?

Just a guess on my part, but I think it a fair assumption folks riding bikes powered like the ones under discussion here all very likely have all of the bike class knowledge they want. To expand on it further, while being WAY off topic, is boring and a waste of time/bandwidth. It's kinda like a constant warning riding around on flat tires is a bad idea. How many times would you think it would take you to read that before the message becomes pretty stale?

 

[tomjasz]

Stale as CA3 size and function even though there’s no experience?

Who doesn’t have a pet peeve or product?

 

[Ken M]

Just a guess on my part, but I think it a fair assumption folks riding bikes powered like the ones under discussion here all very likely have all of the bike class knowledge they want. To expand on it further, while being WAY off topic, is boring and a waste of time/bandwidth. It's kinda like a constant warning riding around on flat tires is a bad idea. How many times would you think it would take you to read that before the message becomes pretty stale?

Compliance of this ebike and others is not way off topic. The only reason the regulatory topic is not much hotter is because there is a total absence of enforcement. I would just prefer that the issues are addressed proactively.

 

[Deafcat]

Compliance of this ebike

Which, the sold-out off-road edition (never intended to be "compliant"), or future models which haven't even been announced?

Don't sweat it, It's not a difficult thing to solve. Power limits, speed limits, assist interface are all simple details.

There will be future versions in several different performance range offerings. Most XDs will end up power limited to under 1kW, reduced torque, reduced weight, etc.

High-mileage, low maintenance, low cost-per-mile is the real target here, in a broad common architecture mid-drive, made in North America.

 

[Gionnirocket]

There will be future versions in several different performance range offerings. Most XDs will end up power limited to under 1kW, reduced torque, reduced weight, etc.

So basically what is available now and not giving anyone any reason to do things differently