New motor: Made in Canada, 2022 Mid-drive system

[Ken M]

Others won't care, if their driver for the 'commuter ebike' is simply more efficient transportation.

Even the most brazen climate deniers are starting to realize that maybe we humans can't just continue down the same path of getting into 6,000 lb vehicles to go 2-20 miles for most trips from home. Ebikes are truly the most efficient way for humans to go from A-to-B ever so they should be considered by anyone that has a synapse still firing.

Congestion, parking, emissions, physical health, mental health, etc. should also be considered. We have grown to love the comfort of putting our fat buts in car seats. So sad.

Not to be blunt, but don't you think there regulations in EU require PAS such that ebikes are less desirable for urban mobility than they are for leisure and recreation riding which don't hurt car and fuel sales.

 

[Ken M]

Some people enjoy analog cycling,

ebikes can provide as much exercise as an anolog bike but when time is money most will opt to increase their average speeds a bit via the assist.

 

[m@Robertson]

... are you certain your Bullitt w/out PAS wasn't partially due to the generally crap throttles on ebikes?

Yes I reprogram both PAS and throttle. You can change throttle sensitivity on a lot of controllers and - particularly with the BBSHD - it turns the throttle into one with silky smooth (plus soft initial) engagement and a wide, graduated range. As you say a throttle is very often an on/off switch with very little travel (vs. potential travel) for on vs. off. If you take the time to work over the internal controller settings you can make a massive change to the behavior of the motor. This is what I was getting at above about the M620 being dead to me without access to its settings interface.

 

[ChezCheese:)]

Did I miss the video with the full details of this miracle motor?

 

[rtp]

Even the most brazen climate deniers are starting to realize that maybe we humans can't just continue down the same path of getting into 6,000 lb vehicles to go 2-20 miles for most trips from home. Ebikes are truly the most efficient way for humans to go from A-to-B ever so they should be considered by anyone that has a synapse still firing.

Congestion, parking, emissions, physical health, mental health, etc. should also be considered. We have grown to love the comfort of putting our fat buts in car seats. So sad.

Not to be blunt, but don't you think there regulations in EU require PAS such that ebikes are less desirable for urban mobility than they are for leisure and recreation riding which don't hurt car and fuel sales.

What you're saying is great and all, but it's also not how customer segmentation works which forms the 'addressable market' for a product - unless of course, you're suggesting governments all force us to have one choice and 'like' it? People still have preferences, even when regulation is forced on them, whether for good or nonsensical reasons, and that impacts who may be interested, or not, in a product with a specific feature set and price.

 

[rtp]

Yes I reprogram both PAS and throttle. You can change throttle sensitivity on a lot of controllers and - particularly with the BBSHD - it turns the throttle into one with silky smooth (plus soft initial) engagement and a wide, graduated range. As you say a throttle is very often an on/off switch with very little travel (vs. potential travel) for on vs. off. If you take the time to work over the internal controller settings you can make a massive change to the behavior of the motor. This is what I was getting at above about the M620 being dead to me without access to its settings interface.

Figured as much, just had to ask. I rarely use my BBHSD bike now, but was thinking more of the physical/electronic limitations and sensitivity of the provided throttles - as well as the programming, etc.
Are you using one of the 'standard-ish' Bafang thumb throttles or something else?

 

[Dave Rocks]

Figured as much, just had to ask. I rarely use my BBHSD bike now, but was thinking more of the physical/electronic limitations and sensitivity of the provided throttles - as well as the programming, etc.
Are you using one of the 'standard-ish' Bafang thumb throttles or something else?

My Raleigh Tekoa mid drive EMTB and my Legacy hub drive commuter EBike both have throttles.
The Raleigh has a twist throttle and the Legacy has a thumb throttle.
On Both bikes you give a little throttle the bikes don't jump and move forward slowly and smooth.
The more you give the faster you go. Not an on/off switch at all. That's how the bikes worked when I bought them, so no programing.

 

[Ken M]

What you're saying is great and all, but it's also not how customer segmentation works which forms the 'addressable market' for a product - unless of course, you're suggesting governments all force us to have one choice and 'like' it? People still have preferences, even when regulation is forced on them, whether for good or nonsensical reasons, and that impacts who may be interested, or not, in a product with a specific feature set and price.

Wow...you must work in marketing. Fluffy words. I'm just talking about how efficient ebikes are compared to cars. I understand that people will make the decision but legislation should not neuter ebikes such tthat they don't reach their full potential. 250W/15mph in EU is a joke and not allowing throttle on a 28mph class 3 in the US is just brain dead (it's worst than that but I don't want to insult those that think the state 3 class legislation was given any thought at all).

 

[m@Robertson]

Figured as much, just had to ask. I rarely use my BBHSD bike now, but was thinking more of the physical/electronic limitations and sensitivity of the provided throttles - as well as the programming, etc.
Are you using one of the 'standard-ish' Bafang thumb throttles or something else?

For the BBBSHD, I'm using the typical el cheapo universal paddle throttle, which has quite the short throw. But the HD also lets you change the voltage delivered across its travel distance so its capable of overcoming that quite nicely. I can deliver a minimum of 50w to the motor consistently if I want to (which is seldom but occasionally useful on a shared use path).

For geared hub motors thats where the throttle is almost bypassed via programming. Which is a tad ironic because I use a throttle with a much longer throw that works great with the HD, but I can no longer get them with the yellow Julet plugs. KT controllers give you three 'slow start' modes, and I use the slowest of those. You essentially mash the throttle and the controller ramps on the power in a controlled curve of increasing slope. So its not possible to do anything but get a nice, smooth acceleration curve that actually pours on the power in fairly short order. On those, throttle truly is on/of but the controller makes it play nice so you just lift when you've reached where you want to be. For me that means at a certain speed (usually a 1- or 2-count) I'm all done with throttle and its all PAS from there.

There are a couple of other settings that affect throttle but that one really does most of the heavuy lifting.

Worth mentioning: Its expected that motorcycle people will like grip throttles. But the thing for an ebike that makes them literally dangerous (not just my opinion) is that on an idling motorcycle, its pretty easy to figure out if the motor is idling, and what you don't want to do with regard to grabbing the grip. But a live ebike motor - especially a strong direct drive hub - behaves exactly like one that is completely shut down. The thing that can happen with them is someone grabs the handlebar grip, the bike jumps and the reflex reaction is to grab harder to steady the bike. That typically makes the situation worse as the bike is under power but attached to a string (your arm) and hilarity ensues. Not so long ago I mentioned this had happened to me and the bike shot straight up into the air and arc'd over top of me in a flash, whereupon it came straight back down.

As such I'd say grip throttles are only for the folks who are experienced enough with their use to make sure this mistake never happens.

 

[m@Robertson]

You can, but it's not the same. I got a workout on my cadence-based BBHSD by intentionally over-gearing and under-powering the assistance, probably not-so-wonderful for motor longevity.

I do exactly the same thing and its never hurt anything. I have heard of the clutches giving out inside the motors from "the hard pedalers" but this is in the context of eMTB and REALLY hammering on the crankarms. For street riding it seems to be a non issue.

 

[AHicks]

I just think feeding sensor parameters into a microprocessor-based controller with programming algorithms will fall short of providing the assist needed/wanted for all riders in all situations. I understand the programmer mindset of "good enough" on something like this. Sure there is the one shortfall of a throttle (that a rider must position the grip or thumb lever) but that has never been considered a big issue on motorcycles, snowmobiles, scooters, etc. and as you said in the most demanding conditions a throttle is best. I thought everyone was claiming mtn bikes needed PAS for that demanding riding.

I believe that so many riders equate a throttle as not pedaling but that is simply not reality. Anyone learns to quickly augment their pedaling via throttle controlled assist and I believe the ASI controller actually supports cruise control.

I think you are doing the right thing by allowing the buyer the option to add PAS if they want to pay for it. That way throttle lovers don't have to pay for all that programming and sensors they don't even want. Freedom of choice is not really provided by the big ebike brands because the EU legislation is pretty much brain-dead at 250W and PAS only (not that there are not many ways around that stupid policy such as having a throttle that only functions so long as there is a cadence sense ongoing - that means the rider is pedaling to get the assist which complies with the interpretation of PAS).

If you have never ridden an Izip Express you should try it. That bike had a small DC motor driven by a tiny belt from the bottom bracket axle. The voltage was fed into the controller just like a thottle voltage so you could ghost pedal the bike in 1st gear all the way max speed the motor could provide with it's peak power. Kind of a cool way to mix PAS/throttle to make the regulators scratch their heads.

Get back with us when you've ridden a bike with a decent PAS system. Based on your writing, it sounds like you've never ridden one, or if you have, your mind was already made up regarding the results. Not open regarding new ideas/concepts.

 

[rtp]

Wow...you must work in marketing. Fluffy words. I'm just talking about how efficient ebikes are compared to cars. I understand that people will make the decision but legislation should not neuter ebikes such tthat they don't reach their full potential. 250W/15mph in EU is a joke and not allowing throttle on a 28mph class 3 in the US is just brain dead (it's worst than that but I don't want to insult those that think the state 3 class legislation was given any thought at all).

Wow - you meanwhile must have zero clue about actual how business and markets work. Lack of basic business understanding. I'm just talking about real world what makes people buy or not buy <any product> and the fact there are multiple reasons and different weights people put on different 'features' or lack thereof.
See how fun the nonsense fluffy ad hom insinuations are?

I am involved in building things that actually SELL, in the $1B+ mark. Regardless of the product, there are multiple viewpoints and those are what influence their decision to buy or not. If you'd like to continue pretending yours is the only opinion that matters, well - enjoy talking to yourself.

 

[Ken M]

Get back with us when you've ridden a bike with a decent PAS system. Based on your writing, it sounds like you've never ridden one, or if you have, your mind was already made up regarding the results. Not open regarding new ideas/concepts.

I have two high end Haibikes - one with a Bosch drive system and one with Yamaha. I like PAS but there were times I would look at the assist level and go why am I not getting full assist up this hill as my speed decreased. The programs can only be predictive. It does know how heavy or how strong the rider is. It doesn't know if one leg is stronger than the other. Worst is the mamby-pamby cease of assist at 20mph just because People for Bikes felt that should be pushed to the states because it was the best system they could find (or the best way they could get lobby money and increase their salaries).

 

[Ken M]

Wow - you meanwhile must have zero clue about actual how business and markets work. Lack of basic business understanding. I'm just talking about real world what makes people buy or not buy <any product> and the fact there are multiple reasons and different weights people put on different 'features' or lack thereof.
See how fun the nonsense fluffy ad hom insinuations are?

I am involved in building things that actually SELL, in the $1B+ mark. Regardless of the product, there are multiple viewpoints and those are what influence their decision to buy or not. If you'd like to continue pretending yours is the only opinion that matters, well - enjoy talking to yourself.

Hey. I merely pointed out that the big brands are not giving anyone the choice to have a throttle and you don't even mention that FACT. You were endorsing the lack of choice on the big brands in my opinion. Not once have I said that PAS should not be provided as an option for those riders that actually prefer it. I did point out that every PAS ebike I have ridden has shortfalls in the programming and my guess is that your's would too because being an engineer I know it's virtually impossible to program a PAS to provide the exact assist level the rider wants in all situations unless it can read their mind. I have several engineering friends that say they can fix PAS (one of them has built many custom ebikes) ... I just think that is so funny.

 

[AHicks]

Ken, way off topic here, so I'll be brief. It's clear to me you have some pretty well defined ideas of how a controller should respond to your demands. I do as well, though my 'druthers are light years different than yours. I just want to share there ARE controllers on the market that feature user definable parameters, and you don't need to be an engineer to use them. Suggest you add that feature (user definable controller) to your "must have" list when it comes time to buying (or building) your next bike.

 

[Ken M]

Ken, way off topic here, so I'll be brief. It's clear to me you have some pretty well defined ideas of how a controller should respond to your demands. I do as well, though my 'druthers are light years different than yours. I just want to share there ARE controllers on the market that feature user definable parameters, and you don't need to be an engineer to use them. Suggest you add that feature (user definable controller) to your "must have" list when it comes time to buying (or building) your next bike.

I helped build an ebike with a MAC geared hub and Grin/ASI Phaserunner. Had tons of control parameters. Still worked best under throttle (after auto optimization) in my opinion. We could tweak it's torque sensitivity for a rider, cadence bias it ,,,, yada yada .... throttle just was simply and accurate. It honestly is not that I want a controller to respond to my demands / expectations.... I just know that a standard program is not capable of being all things to all riders and that is what is "marketed" by the big brands and they don't even provide a throttle because they think their programmers are better than the rider's brain. I think not.

 

[AHicks]

I helped build an ebike with a MAC geared hub and Grin/ASI Phaserunner. Had tons of control parameters. Still worked best under throttle (after auto optimization) in my opinion. We could tweak it's torque sensitivity for a rider, cadence bias it ,,,, yada yada .... throttle just was simply and accurate. It honestly is not that I want a controller to respond to my demands / expectations.... I just know that a standard program is not capable of being all things to all riders and that is what is "marketed" by the big brands and they don't even provide a throttle because they think their programmers are better than the rider's brain. I think not.

Geez, on this I couldn't agree more. The current generation of controllers sold on nearly all hub driven bikes is absolute crap, and the better ones sold on mid drives, that will not accomodate a throttle aren't much better. I have to believe this is going to change as consumers become better informed, and the market matures.

 

[rtp]

Geez, on this I couldn't agree more. The current generation of controllers sold on nearly all hub driven bikes is absolute crap, and the better ones sold on mid drives, that will not accomodate a throttle aren't much better. I have to believe this is going to change as consumers become better informed, and the market matures.

We can all hope, regardless of different expectations.

 

[Ken M]

We can all hope, regardless of different expectations.

We can all start by telling People for Bikes and the states that the 3 class legislation does not meet our expectations for common sense legislation of ebikes that we had with HR727 since 2002.

 

[Ken M]

Just posting a comment to move this back up on forum order list.

Back on subject I think this dual drive motor idea is pretty cool especially if they can have mounting brackets such that it can replace a Bafang, Bosch, Brose, and/or Yamaha mid drive and then literally have a belt sprocket mounted just inside the read disk brake. I would not really trust a 2nd chain near the disk brake only because of the potential for a poorly lubed chain slinging it onto the disk rotor. This idea has a lot of potential for sure but that fit on the disc brake side just seems crowded.