Can you tell us about the power output around say 3-4mph? Efficiency ?
I am asking this to see if this system will also be viable when the power is limited to 750W.
New motor: Made in Canada, 2022 Mid-drive system
- Thread starter Deafcat
- Start date
I am asking this to see if this system will also be viable when the power is limited to 750W.
kmccune
Well-Known Member
If we can do bright blue, believe I would like one of those( or Teal, not hard to please love pastel) As a matter of fact,I am working on a similar build, problem is your build makes mine look like"curb pickup on trash day".
Man that has to have the 'Gendarmes doing double or triple takes.
Given the gear reduction on the motor drive (6:1 at the motor and 10:1 via chain drive) it will perform as good or likely better than most other mid-drives and be as or more efficient. While no motor has great efficiency at really slow speeds they have their most torque which riders tend to like to utilize from starts (especially with a throttle). What every rider should realize is that we are best / most efficient at the slow speeds because we can stand on the pedals and get a bike to 3+ mph very quickly - riders should use that to the benefit of over-all riding efficiency (i.e. don't use the throttle too much to get the bike going).
Also keep in mind the legislation is such that the 750W is not really a power limit but a "power rating." Go to Grin's website and read about this. This was done by intention in HR727 because in reality that fed law had constraints to limit the power over 20mph and the power rating allowed greater power under 20mph so utility and cargo bikes could be possible. Few really take the time to understand this (the LSEB definition was written by a PhD Electrical Engineer, not a clue-less politician or some marketing echo chamber master).
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Uma - you keep saying this/posting similar, but somehow I keep missing what actual motor and controller you're using?
Good news on the waterproofing front! (although I suspect the Juggernaut frame isn't, like pretty much most popular-ish china ebike frames - but even Bosch, Trek ... and others have some issues with water ingress, so kudos nonetheless).
Now for torque-sensing PAS and being sold as a kit.
You can not make that assertion without knowing the motor parameters.
I asked a specific question so I will be happy if I get a more precise answer from the developers.
You're making some big assumptions. As Deafcat said, the motor has an internal 6:1 reduction and the chain drive brings it to a total of 10:1 reduction. Comparing that to the Ultra (since it's the mid-drive this motor is billed as a replacement for), it has an internal gear reduction of 18:1: https://www.electricbike.com/bafang-ultra-max/
Gear-wise, the new motor/drive is equivalent to the Ultra in about 7th or 8th gear of a 12 speed cassette (depending upon exact chainring size of course). Certainly not a gear in which anybody would try to climb a really steep hill. It may be able to do it if you throw enough amps at it, but those amps have to come from somewhere. The assumption it could do it efficiently has no basis.
It's one thing if the hill is pavement or a smooth gravel/dirt road that can be climbed at high speed if you have enough power. But it's quite another on steeper, more technical offroad trails where higher speeds would be unsafe. A typical Ultra will come with a total reduction in the ~22:1 range available in the granny gears. This allows the motor to be spinning in its most efficient range even when crawling up really steep hills at low speeds. Assuming this new motor system can do the same without draining the battery much faster than the Ultra (which certainly isn't the best mid-drive in that aspect to begin with) without any actual evidence to support it, is putting a ton of faith in advertising or believing those cheerleading the magical properties of a dual drive actually know what they're talking about.
If you don't do that sort of riding, that's fine--many people don't. But many do as well, and when claims are made of something being "better at everything" than a mid-drive, it should be better at what they do as well or the claim shouldn't be made.
Yes, but without charts/graphs or doing some math like the above, it's very easy for people to "understand" things that aren't actually true in a particular application.
UART Ultras are still available and some companies are still putting them in new bikes. I know everybody assumes that will go away at some point and it probably will, but that time hasn't come yet. So maybe it's just a bit premature to dance on the Ultra's grave.
Dave Rocks
Well-Known Member
- Region
- Canada
- City
- MISSISSAUGA
There are big hills to climb north and close to Toronto in areas like Hockley Hills, Horseshoe Valley, Belfountain, Bruce Peninsula and Blue Mountain/Collingwood to name a small few were I have ridden.
PedalUma
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Petaluma, CA
Yes, that is literally true. Industry usage is slightly different, more subtle. When buyer and seller are discussing the price of steel cap screws and the word 'stainless' is not mentioned, then they are not discussing the price of stainless steel cap screws. When people in the industry talk about PAS and the word 'torque sensor' is not used, than they are not discussing torque sensors.
My ideal drive system is a hall-less in-runner motor driving the rear wheel as a dual drive like the XD. Bike totally sensorless and no programs trying to out-think me. Just give me a throttle. I'll pedal the bike to a few kph/mph so the controller can detect back emf for commutation when I start using the throttle. A bike is supposed to be simple and PAS in reality adds very little value for urban mobility. I understand the merits for mountain biking but pretty much no value for transportation bikes. The fact the XD has optional PAS at least allows the riders that understand this don't have to pay for all those sensors and programming. SAY NO TO PAS!!
The only thing I want to know is the battery level in a simple graph. I'm too busy ridding to care about those other parameters ... I'm not flying a plane. If important get Strava and post your rides on Facebook as if anyone really cares your loop times.
The only thing I want to know is the battery level in a simple graph. I'm too busy ridding to care about those other parameters ... I'm not flying a plane. If important get Strava and post your rides on Facebook as if anyone really cares your loop times.
scrambler
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Bay Area, CA
So I guess people are not entitled to their preference
I'm just advocating simplicity for urban mobility. I understand technical crawling up a 10% incline mtn trail at 3-5mph is best served via a torque-based PAS but I think the merits of PAS really goes down for urban mobility. When I'm commuting something like 75% of my time may be on straight roads with moderate slopes so my speed may vary from 15-25mph but it sure seems easy to keep the assist where my effort is where I want it to be (without a programming guess).So I guess people are not entitled to their preference
I really think that just the fact that PAS doesn't really account for rider weight or real world leg power of different riders the assist estimate can be pretty far off what the different riders may want. I understand the superman-like feeling when on a PAS ebike - that's a smile generator that is well leveraged by the marketing types but is it really a better solution than a throttle on an urban mobility ebike. I simply do not think so.
One last comment on this. My guess is that if all the big brand ebikes came with throttle only standard configuration and a rider had to pay the extra cost for the PAS if they wanted it, it would not be a very popular upgrade. The fact that the EU ebike regulations were regulatory captured to not allow throttles, most of the big brands just ship to the US what is sold in Europe and then market people that they really don't want a throttle. So who is really saying people are not entitled to their preference - the company names are Trek, Specialized, R&M, Stromer, Haibike, Giant, etc. They could provide a throttle for US market and even push for regulatory change in the EU (oh but I forgot Bosch, Brose, and Yamaha have more business with internal combustion motors so they want ebikes to remain recreational).
SAY NO TO PAS!!
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Deafcat
Active Member
My personal take on urban commuting: great PAS is my favorite way to control a bike in the city, around motor and foot traffic, etc. Once you've spent time with good torque PAS on a road-optimized ebike, there is no going back. Throttle gets the job done, but is an inelegant solution requiring your throttle hand always in position, constantly strained. Your feet can do a better job, and with more subtle control, as it turns out.
We have really strict standards for what constitutes great torque+cadence PAS and will not compromise on it. XD Torque+Cadence PAS will be announced when it's ready for distribution (in production batches qty), including pricing at that time.
For the mean time, Throttle-only works great, especially with three power levels to adjust it (33/66/100%)
Outside the city, beyond paved streets: Throttle tends to take over anyway. Especially on terrain where you spend almost no time in the saddle.
We have really strict standards for what constitutes great torque+cadence PAS and will not compromise on it. XD Torque+Cadence PAS will be announced when it's ready for distribution (in production batches qty), including pricing at that time.
For the mean time, Throttle-only works great, especially with three power levels to adjust it (33/66/100%)
Outside the city, beyond paved streets: Throttle tends to take over anyway. Especially on terrain where you spend almost no time in the saddle.
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I just think feeding sensor parameters into a microprocessor-based controller with programming algorithms will fall short of providing the assist needed/wanted for all riders in all situations. I understand the programmer mindset of "good enough" on something like this. Sure there is the one shortfall of a throttle (that a rider must position the grip or thumb lever) but that has never been considered a big issue on motorcycles, snowmobiles, scooters, etc. and as you said in the most demanding conditions a throttle is best. I thought everyone was claiming mtn bikes needed PAS for that demanding riding.
I believe that so many riders equate a throttle as not pedaling but that is simply not reality. Anyone learns to quickly augment their pedaling via throttle controlled assist and I believe the ASI controller actually supports cruise control.
I think you are doing the right thing by allowing the buyer the option to add PAS if they want to pay for it. That way throttle lovers don't have to pay for all that programming and sensors they don't even want. Freedom of choice is not really provided by the big ebike brands because the EU legislation is pretty much brain-dead at 250W and PAS only (not that there are not many ways around that stupid policy such as having a throttle that only functions so long as there is a cadence sense ongoing - that means the rider is pedaling to get the assist which complies with the interpretation of PAS).
If you have never ridden an Izip Express you should try it. That bike had a small DC motor driven by a tiny belt from the bottom bracket axle. The voltage was fed into the controller just like a thottle voltage so you could ghost pedal the bike in 1st gear all the way max speed the motor could provide with it's peak power. Kind of a cool way to mix PAS/throttle to make the regulators scratch their heads.
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m@Robertson
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
Thats good to hear, although I don't know anyone selling them - but then again I don't have a project that needs one so I haven't really been looking.UART Ultras are still available and some companies are still putting them in new bikes. I know everybody assumes that will go away at some point and it probably will, but that time hasn't come yet. So maybe it's just a bit premature to dance on the Ultra's grave.
Along the same lines, the M625 (the CAN Bus BBSHD v2 that also has a Bafang-manufactured battery requirement) ) seems to be in wide distribution in the EU but not in the States. I literally just bought an 'old school' M615 (the BBSHD we all know) that came straight off of a boat from China a couple of weeks ago... so Bafang is still making them - at least for now - despite fears they were dead and gone and the M625 was going to be a replacement.
m@Robertson
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
Without question - hands down - well-programmed PAS is by far the easiest method to provide power assist that gives the rider the most satisfaction. Throttle requires cognitive as well as physical effort throughout the entire ride. Its not the sort of effort that will lead to exhaustion, but just consider what it takes to master a thumb throttle ...
I find on my emtb, on tricky stuff, PAS-only is ideal. Not throttle. throttle = wheel spin and lurches. PAS = riding like a bicycle with Superman legs. Ride a narrow trail cliffside and see whether you want slow, predictable power or a whoosh of it. Reality is both are best as 9 times out of 10 you want that gradual assist, but there are definitely times when you just want to beat on it for a split second or three.
And its something anyone can test. Switch your PAS to zero and - assuming you don't have one of those broke-ass throttles that varies throttle power by something that should be unrelated (PAS), use only throttle. See how you like it.
Ebikes are tech. Use the tech available to you. Don't hobble yourself.
- Thumb placed a certain spot vis-a-vis the bars.
- Coming up to a thump/curb/drop? use your head to think on whether or not the thumb is going to sash down on the throttle and potentially break the paddle off when you bottom out (clocking the throttle can help eliminate this).
- hitting a bump? maintain your throttle position through the impact, or consciously lift during the bump (occupy a corner of your mind even if to a small degree).
- And yes of course that thumb can tire out a little over a long ride. Here again clocking the throttle can help place your thumb where its not being strained, but that may mean you can't clock the throttle to safeguard it from an impact (see above). Between the two I safeguard it and deal with this one via finger muscle/hand placement.
- Thumbs are better used to grasp a handlebar grip vs.pushing on a throttle. Changing to a grip/half grip or similar throttle only shifts the burden to a different body part (the wrist)
I find on my emtb, on tricky stuff, PAS-only is ideal. Not throttle. throttle = wheel spin and lurches. PAS = riding like a bicycle with Superman legs. Ride a narrow trail cliffside and see whether you want slow, predictable power or a whoosh of it. Reality is both are best as 9 times out of 10 you want that gradual assist, but there are definitely times when you just want to beat on it for a split second or three.
And its something anyone can test. Switch your PAS to zero and - assuming you don't have one of those broke-ass throttles that varies throttle power by something that should be unrelated (PAS), use only throttle. See how you like it.
Ebikes are tech. Use the tech available to you. Don't hobble yourself.
An interesting argument, but has the same problem as those (myself included) arguing for (torque-basedI'm just advocating simplicity for urban mobility. I understand technical crawling up a 10% incline mtn trail at 3-5mph is best served via a torque-based PAS but I think the merits of PAS really goes down for urban mobility. When I'm commuting something like 75% of my time may be on straight roads with moderate slopes so my speed may vary from 15-25mph but it sure seems easy to keep the assist where my effort is where I want it to be (without a programming guess).
I really think that just the fact that PAS doesn't really account for rider weight or real world leg power of different riders the assist estimate can be pretty far off what the different riders may want. I understand the superman-like feeling when on a PAS ebike - that's a smile generator that is well leveraged by the marketing types but is it really a better solution than a throttle on an urban mobility ebike. I simply do not think so.
One last comment on this. My guess is that if all the big brand ebikes came with throttle only standard configuration and a rider had to pay the extra cost for the PAS if they wanted it, it would not be a very popular upgrade. The fact that the EU ebike regulations were regulatory captured to not allow throttles, most of the big brands just ship to the US what is sold in Europe and then market people that they really don't want a throttle. So who is really saying people are not entitled to their preference - the company names are Trek, Specialized, R&M, Stromer, Haibike, Giant, etc. They could provide a throttle for US market and even push for regulatory change in the EU (oh but I forgot Bosch, Brose, and Yamaha have more business with internal combustion motors so they want ebikes to remain recreational).
SAY NO TO PAS!!
) PAS - different use cases.As a motorcycle/moped replacement, or for e.g. delivery duties - you're right, why bother with PAS (assuming the throttle input is at least as smooth as a typical motorcycles - oh wait, but many/most/(all?) aren't to date....)
For anyone wanting a workout, for emtb, even road and commuter bikes where people do NOT want a motorcycle/moped replacement - PAS makes sense and becomes expected (by most) for those purposes.
Long time MC rider here, including several off-road out of the country trips and some long-ish in the US.
A MC throttle with similar sensitivity is IMO bounds superior to any of the ebike throttles I've seen so far - this isn't to say a good one couldn't be made as it could be, but look at the various contraptions we have out there today - super easy to dislodge your thumb as you pointed out, lack of precision/progressiveness, etc. Even vs ATV style thumb throttles, I'd personally prefer a grip-based, or at the very least, a much more progressive, properly ergonomic and well placed thumb-throttle as a second place contender. Neither of which I've seen on an e-bike, although could be done - maybe the BAC allows for programmable throttle inputs and ramping etc. ?
Anyways, a good grip twist throttle or thumb throttle could overcome some of the issues you called out. I've done hundreds of miles in a day using one just fine on motorcycles, etc.
Ironically, I don't want or 'need' a throttle on my ebike, but are you certain your Bullitt w/out PAS wasn't partially due to the generally crap throttles on ebikes?
I do not understand the argument that you can not get a workout on a throttle-assist ebike. Over and Over and Over again it seems most people perceive that the presence of a throttle implies there is no pedaling. A throttle in no way prevents getting good exercise levels.
As for ebike being a motorcycle/moped/car replacement???? - isn't that the idea of a commuter ebike? They are supposed to hopefully get people off the less efficient transportation solutions.
You can, but it's not the same. I got a workout on my cadence-based BBHSD by intentionally over-gearing and under-powering the assistance, probably not-so-wonderful for motor longevity.
See above comments on throttles. It could be possible with a much finer-grained throttle, though.
Different motivations can apply to the same broad use case. Some people enjoy analog cycling, and ride to work currently (assuming office open, COVID, etc.). If they age, do you think they immediately want to go to a purely throttle-driven-option, or - continue riding with a bit of.... (torque/non-throttle-based) assistance to continue feel like they're riding a bike?
Others won't care, if their driver for the 'commuter ebike' is simply more efficient transportation.
Same broad use case of 'commuter ebike' but very different motivations.
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