New motor: Made in Canada, 2022 Mid-drive system

[TomD]

No PAS is a head scratcher. Throttle only / pedal input is ignored? I guess if you want something more akin to a motorbike than an ebike.

I'm not sure I'm convinced there is much practical redundancy either. If you consider the assist side chain will be most likely to break, can't see pedaling this bike home without assist unless you're on flat ground. It's different than a rear hub where motor failure (I'd think far less likely than motor assist chain breakage) is going to be the pedal home scenario.

Edit: to clarify, I'm thinking of the dominant scenario where redundancy comes into play. On a rear hub the dominant scenario would be chain breakage (more likely than motor failure) so dominant redundancy is more useful than not. On a dual chain setup, the dominant scenario is motor assist chain breakage, and dominant redundancy is of much less practical use.

 

[Deafcat]

If you consider the assist side chain will be most likely to break

Yea, we've been trying really hard to break the assist side. Really trying. We haven't been able to break anything on the powertrain side.

Also been trying field-weakening, to beat up the motor harder, overheating it isn't even possible with our current batteries.

On a related note, the motor has a 6:1 reduction before the final output reduction (total 10:1 ratio). Thought I'd clarify that a bit further. The internal reduction stage is greased for 10,000km interval, but may go much longer than this without re-grease.

 

[scrambler]

No PAS is a head scratcher. Throttle only / pedal input is ignored? I guess if you want something more akin to a motorbike than an ebike.

They said PAS is coming shortly, just not there in the initial release.

Hopefully it will just be an update for the early buyers.
@Deafcat, do early released bike have the hardware (cadence and torque sensor), to support PAS when it is ready?

 

[ruffruff]

It is for people who are out of shape. Ether go for an electric motorcycle or ride a bike or get a refined electric bike that is not cluttered and clunky. The idea that all opinions are equal is not true. Many people have false beliefs or are ill informed.
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[Deafcat]

They said PAS is coming shortly, just not there in the initial release.

Hopefully it will just be an update for the early buyers.
@Deafcat, do early released bike have the hardware (cadence and torque sensor), to support PAS when it is ready?

Yup, the PAS is plug and play with mount hardware already integrated in the system. Plugs into control board with waterproof higo plug.

 

[scrambler]

Thanks @Deafcat.
Did you guys developed a controller from scratch, or used an existing one like Silixcon or other?

 

[TomD]

Yea, we've been trying really hard to break the assist side. Really trying. We haven't been able to break anything on the powertrain side.

That's encouraging to hear. Perhaps I'm assuming too much based on bike chains. I suppose you're able to use a heavier duty chain and also dial in the alignment better which would also help.

 

[Deacon Blues]

Sure who cares what you ride.
I'm just confused over who is the market and how big it is?

I think this will be a direct competitor with the Watt Wagons Hydra.

 

[scrambler]

Until they have a Full suspension version I think there is still a wide gap to close.
The limitation to fat bike swingarm is also a significant restriction.

 

[Deafcat]

Yea, FS and fatbikes are one of those things that don't necessarily need to be combined (my opinion personally).

If/when we build an FS version with this drivetrain, I'd like it to be around a 157mm rear end, with narrower Q-factor to suit. This way, we could cater to say 27.5" x 3.5" max rear, still loads of tire, but not excessive.

 

[PedalUma]

enabling more people to ride

I am all for that. We were talking about the large market. I make bikes for disabled persons. Last week I made a throttle bike for a elderly disabled woman so she can ride with her husband and grandchildren. The week before for a woman with no thumbs and miniature fingers. This bike with the battery is a clunker at about 35.4 Kg. Refined bikes weigh closer to 35.5 pounds. For people who do not know, more is better. For people who do, the Zen Garden of less is more. We see this in the California wine country. People who do not know will go for wine that tastes like Hawaiian Punch saying that, "This is the Best!"

 

[Deafcat]

PedalUma: Yea, I'm just gonna add you to my ignored list, the big photo attachments and snobby attitude (like you know more than the rest of us, about Zen and the art of Ebikes) isn't adding anything to this discussion.

No hard feelings! I just don't have time for that. Kudos for the efforts in disabled ebikes/mobility though, I highly respect that.

 

[Ken M]

I don't want to quibble over a matter of semantics but by “bike-like experience” my interpretation is that the main power to the ground man-machine interface is through the pedals just like the bike the Wright Brothers rode long ago. The human factors problem is more like controlling the power to an artificial limb (i.e. your legs) with enough feedback to remain linear (i.e. no oscillation as you pedal,”jerkiness, etc.) so you can sense and modulate the amplification factor intuitively. Controlling this via a hand throttle breaks this loop. Throttles are fine, especially for many styles of bikes like scramblers not really meant to be pedaled, if that's what you love to ride.

To the contrary, I don't like the scramblers/super 73/mini-bike designs for the very reason that they are not designed to be effectively pedaled (then again I see a lot of people that ride regular bikes with the seat height in what many call a Flintstone position so they can have their feet on the ground while still seated in the saddle). The loop you mention is still a program written by coders that can only use the sensor parameters and guess what assist the rider wants. I know the early Yamaha drive system when climbing had an issue that when you would downshift the pedal torque would obviously fall and that resulted in the the actual rider torque going up with the downshift because the assist fell so dramatically. I had a Haibike with this issue and you end up having to downshift two gears to ensure the pedal for you have to provide reduces a bit. I had friends that had Haibikes and they said I was crazy and I just told them they didn't pay attention. I picked a hill and I said lets agree to ride up that hill at 18mph target speed and I told them to pay attention to the pedal force required after they downshift. When finished they acknowledged that was strange - having to downshift two gears to get lower pedaling force is not typical on a traditional bike.

 

[JCofMN]

Yup, the PAS is plug and play with mount hardware already integrated in the system. Plugs into control board with waterproof higo plug.

So from your comments, the driver MOSFET power unit is integrated probably using the motor housing as a heat sink, but the PAS controller is an external module/box. Could you reveal whether you’re running sensorless or does your motor have integrated Hall position sensors?

Since you label PAS as an option; I assume there is an add-on cost? I assume this would include the cost of the display control interface. Have you finalized this yet? Familiar Bafang-like interface??

 

[PedalUma]

I am dropping this thread too. All the best with the venture.

 

[JCofMN]

To the contrary, I don't like the scramblers/super 73/mini-bike designs for the very reason that they are not designed to be effectively pedaled (then again I see a lot of people that ride regular bikes with the seat height in what many call a Flintstone position so they can have their feet on the ground while still seated in the saddle). The loop you mention is still a program written by coders that can only use the sensor parameters and guess what assist the rider wants. I know the early Yamaha drive system when climbing had an issue that when you would downshift the pedal torque would obviously fall and that resulted in the the actual rider torque going up with the downshift because the assist fell so dramatically. I had a Haibike with this issue and you end up having to downshift two gears to ensure the pedal for you have to provide reduces a bit. I had friends that had Haibikes and they said I was crazy and I just told them they didn't pay attention. I picked a hill and I said lets agree to ride up that hill at 18mph target speed and I told them to pay attention to the pedal force required after they downshift. When finished they acknowledged that was strange - having to downshift two gears to get lower pedaling force is not typical on a traditional bike.

No, the loop I referred to was the mind-muscle memory feedback loop, totally internal to the rider. Similarly a throttle only vehicle relies on a hand grip wrist loop interface transfer function tuning.

 

[Merle Nelson]

I like the bike and what you have been able to do . Great to see a Canadian Company step up to the plate and produce a quality product.

The only issue I have and I have seen this with other Canadian Companies and it bugs me to see this, is why the price in USD? You are a Canadian Company in Canada, why can you not be a proud Canadian Company and use Canadian dollar prices. Let others figure out the exchange rate if they do not live in Canada.

I live in Canada, and when I am buying from a Canadian company I expect to pay in Canadian dollars and expect to see Canadian dollar price tags not USD price tags. I know it's just a small thing, but still.

Bruce

All principles are small things - until they're not, then all of a sudden the populace is wailing and just can't figure out what happened to x.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Here's the scoop, as much as I can share right now:

• it uses a high resolution torque+cadence PAS

But it doesn't have PAS

• 24 months engineering right here in Saskatoon, SK.

After we ripped off the LMX64 design

 

[Deafcat]

So from your comments, the driver MOSFET power unit is integrated probably using the motor housing as a heat sink, but the PAS controller is an external module/box. Could you reveal whether you’re running sensorless or does your motor have integrated Hall position sensors?

Since you label PAS as an option; I assume there is an add-on cost? I assume this would include the cost of the display control interface. Have you finalized this yet? Familiar Bafang-like interface??

Great questions:

The ESC (motor controller) is a programmable FOC, also from Canadian supplier. This works in conjunction with our motor hall-sensor signal processing, and microcontroller interface.

All of this is integrated within the mid-drive/motor assembly, however the motor itself is a modular component of the whole system (this will make service work much easier than complicated nightmares from Bafang).

PAS is also it's own integrated unit, which is effectively plug-and-play with the XD system proper, via a waterproof connector and integrated mounting.

 

[roshan]

But it doesn't have PAS

After we ripped off the LMX64 design

Actually will come with a torque sensor which we're just refining.

Ripped off lmx? Lol. Ask Adam and Lucas about who gave them the idea for their first bike with dual chain and pedals. You may be surprised by the answer. I pitched them this back in 2015 when they were only focused on non-pedal bikes. We in fact even co-developed a model which later got discontinued but was the basis for all their future models.

Also if it makes you feel any better, lmx is yet to make a co-ax model bike which is what this is.