New motor: Made in Canada, 2022 Mid-drive system

[reed scott]

If it's something akin to the LMX64 back a couple pages I won't be interested. Too much bulky looking machinery. This development will pass me by I think. I love the clean uncluttered look and feel of my Hydra. I've always loved bikes, had several motorcycles. Don't care for motorcycles any more. They scare me. If bikes start kinda being motorcycles ... such will do nothing for me. Now for cargo ... nuther story. I could really use a cargo bike out here. But it would have to have a pretty much water proof motor and electrical system.

 

[JRA]

I can wait as I'm not looking to ride Everest or tow a mobile home. At this moment I enjoy powering as much as I can with my chicken legs and my tuned down 750w provides more than enough additional and not wearing out any drive components either. Honestly if I needed that much assistance I think I would go all in electric and just forget about pedals... But that's just me.
The only plus I see so far is that it's made in N. America and I'm sure there are some who would have a need... even if only for show.

I think you missed my point but whatever! I was referring more to the details that people are trying to pry out of DeafCat when all should be revealed on Tuesday.

 

[Johnny]

Here's the scoop, as much as I can share right now:

• it's more powerful than a Bafang Ultra, and it sounds better.
• it uses a high resolution torque+cadence PAS
• it's made in Canada (mostly, including motor and electronics, power drivetrain)
• 24 months engineering right here in Saskatoon, SK.
• it does not rely on bicycle chain for assist power, but it still pedals like any bicycle, with up to 12 speeds
• it's compatible with fat tires, 29+, all that jazz
• Easily 40 MPH in testing without breaking a sweat, and can climb and tow like mad (over 2000lbs tested, on a popular bridge, I kid you not.)
• it can do all of this with fairly conventional batteries (typically 52V 40A+ 900-1100Wh)
• the drivetrain service interval is over 5,000km, with 10,000km service interval design goal
• key design goals: low cost-per-km, severely reliable with redundancies, mountain-climbing machine, cross country endurance. Strong sporty, but agile af.

Launch for website is 2/22/2022, this coming Tuesday.

More info soon, more photos to come, Cheers!

View attachment 114751

I like the concept overall.

So it is pretty much a hub drive like system implemented as a mid drive.

I guess you will have one chain for the rider on the right side and another belt/chain on the left that goes directly from the motor to the hub.

Does the motor have multiple internal gears ? Otherwise this will be too much like a geared hub system.

 

[Gionnirocket]

I think you missed my point but whatever! I was referring more to the details that people are trying to pry out of DeafCat when all should be revealed on Tuesday.

No I got it... Deafcat is trying to create buzz... And some are buzzed. Just not me.

 

[scrambler]

I like the concept overall.

So it is pretty much a hub drive like system implemented as a mid drive.

I guess you will have one chain for the rider on the right side and another belt/chain on the left that goes directly from the motor to the hub.

Does the motor have multiple internal gears ? Otherwise this will be too much like a geared hub system.

No multiple gears on the electric motor, a single gear ratio. This is the beauty of a dual drivetrain.
Well sized electric motors with the proper fixed ratio don't need gears, they can deliver all their torque from zero to max on a single gear ratio, usually around 1:9 or 1:10
So the pedaling side is there to provide two things:
1- Additional power from the rider (using gears, because we are not as strong and efficient as an electric motor).
2- Input for the pedal assist.
Based on the pressure applied to the cranks and the pedaling speed, it can decide how much additional power to send through the separate drivetrain.
This also means that changing gears is way less necessary, because you can get the motor to deliver all the power you need regardless of the pedaling speed.
If you are in the middle of a hill in the fastest gear (smallest cog), when you apply pressure on the pedal, it will send power to the wheel through the separate drivetrain and get going just as well.
The slowest gears (large cogs) on the pedaling side become mostly necessary when using little motor assistance.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Nice to have more innovation coming out of Canada.
This is quite different from what we are developing this year and I wonder if this project from Biktrix would be similar to what LMX has done.

https://lmxbikes.com/index.php/lmx-64/

The rear hub spacing and structural requirements would not be trivial to adapt to just any frame.

Curious to learn more..

 

[scrambler]

Nice to have more innovation coming out of Canada.
This is quite different from what we are developing this year and I wonder if this project from Biktrix would be similar to what LMX has done.

https://lmxbikes.com/index.php/lmx-64/

The rear hub spacing and structural requirements would not be trivial to adapt to just any frame.

Curious to learn more..

View attachment 114781

View attachment 114782

If you read the whole thread, you will see that indeed dual drive train means something similar to what LMX (64 and 56), SEM (venom and others) and BoxxBike (Valkyrie) have done

 

[Gionnirocket]

It's definitely a cool system... and as this thread progresses it's obvious that it's not a new one.
I'm just wondering how practical it will be for the average user.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

you will see that indeed dual drive train means something similar to what LMX (64 and 56), SEM (venom and others) and BoxxBike (Valkyrie) have done

Matching the torque input from the pedal side to the torque output of the drive side (motor side) would require precise tuning and it would be great to see someone doing this properly.
Most dual drives are not optimized for torque-sensing pedal assist. They are just motorcycles with pedals.

 

[Jon A]

1- Additional power from the rider (using gears, because we are not as strong and efficient as an electric motor).
2- Input for the pedal assist.

For the third time, your "concept" of how this works is just wrong. There is no magic. A motor with a single gear ratio is a motor with a single gear ratio. Forget about pedaling--people with Ultras usually have throttles and are well aware of what they are capable of doing (and what they are not) when pedaling is taken out of the equation entirely. A gear ratio that is "optimum" for a bike climbing a 50%+ grade at low speed will not be optimum for speeds many times as high on flatter ground. With enough power, certainly a motor can perform very well in both situations even with less than optimal gearing. Enough power fixes most things. But there is a 750W limit where many people will want to ride.

It's very possible this motor (the motor itself) has a much broader torque curve than the Ultra at the same power level (which would provide more area under the power curve) while fitting in the same space, which would be quite impressive. I hope this is the case.

But that's what it would take. Not some magic that comes from removing pedaling power from the same chain.

 

[Gionnirocket]

I wanted Kashima dropper

With or without the saddle?

 

[Gionnirocket]

It is obviously NOT targeted towards average user.
I don't think average user would be looking for a motor that's more powerful than Ultra, going 40+mph.

In my view, this is targeted towards enthusiasts and hobbyists. Kind of like Grin Tech products, which is also from Canada.
It will have its niche market for sure, but I don't think it is going to be next Shimano, Brose, Yamaha or Bosch.

That was exactly my point in prior posts. Not buzz'd

 

[AHicks]

No longer any interest here - unwatched.

 

[Gionnirocket]

No longer any interest here - unwatched.

Elvis has left the building.

 

[Johnny]

Well sized electric motors with the proper fixed ratio don't need gears, they can deliver all their torque from zero to max on a single gear ratio, usually around 1:9 or 1:10

For size and/or weight limited systems with single speed you may go for top end then run hot at slower speeds or go for low end but speed limited. I don't see how this system gets over this problem.

Matching the torque input from the pedal side to the torque output of the drive side (motor side) would require precise tuning and it would be great to see someone doing this properly.

If the torque measurement is not available at the motor side then why not use rider's power output for computing the desired motor output given the amplification factor. That is probably why they mention a high resolution cadence sensor in addition to torque sensor. Still this may not be as good depending on the quality of the power measurement since precise and low delay power meters can be quite expensive.

 

[scrambler]

For the third time, your "concept" of how this works is just wrong. There is no magic. A motor with a single gear ratio is a motor with a single gear ratio. Forget about pedaling--people with Ultras usually have throttles and are well aware of what they are capable of doing (and what they are not) when pedaling is taken out of the equation entirely. A gear ratio that is "optimum" for a bike climbing a 50%+ grade at low speed will not be optimum for speeds many times as high on flatter ground. With enough power, certainly a motor can perform very well in both situations even with less than optimal gearing. Enough power fixes most things. But there is a 750W limit where many people will want to ride.

It's very possible this motor (the motor itself) has a much broader torque curve than the Ultra at the same power level (which would provide more area under the power curve) while fitting in the same space, which would be quite impressive. I hope this is the case.

But that's what it would take. Not some magic that comes from removing pedaling power from the same chain.

We are speaking of 2000W to 3000W motor here, and these for a fact can do the job on a single gear ratio (especially if designed for it, which is the case here).
I know, I have one

 

[ruffruff]

If you start from the beginning I believe it was stated that it will be able to mount with the Ultra mount.(post#10)
But thats only half the problem as the rear wheel would still need to have a left side drive cog along with chain and mounting clearances
So it's not just a motor swap

correct, can't just drop it into an Ultra frame.

 

[JRA]

correct, can't just drop it into an Ultra frame.

As I understand it it needs 197mm spacing probably to accommodate the 70t chainring? There are Ultra bike frames made to that spec and also as I understand it you can also swap the rear triangle from 148 boost to 197mm on frames like the DengFu E22 and perhaps others.

 

[Nvreloader]

Guys,
Here is more info posted by Deaf Cat, post dated 26/June/21, see info here

Best Mid-drive Motors in 2021

Hi, I know there are many kits and motors out there but what I would like to know is the state-of-art only in 2021. More specifically, I would like to know the best motors in the range 1.5kw - 5kw with high efficiency, endurance and silence. I know Bafang motors and I very much like them...

endless-sphere.com

Tia,
Don

 

[Gionnirocket]

It's a sequel. . .