New motor: Made in Canada, 2022 Mid-drive system

[scrambler]

There is not much weight difference between a Rohloff or a pinion C1.9XR, and if you integrate the gearbox in the motor housing you probably save weight.
But the benefit is centralized weight and no unsuspended weight in the rear wheel.
Not a huge deal, but still.
Valeo has one done in partnership with Effigear. Not enough power though (Europe limitations...)

 

[m@Robertson]

I'm really picky about the sound of an ebike: It was important to us that the bike isn't noisy, and sounds good in general. I really like how the acoustics turned out so far! The tensioner design we used is absolutely key here.

Apparently Cyc went thru their own learning process - one of many - with respect to the tensioner and how it affects sound. Their new motors are supposedly much quieter specifically due to evolving tensioner design. Me, I have the 1.0 and its a hive of angry bees under WOT.

BTW I want to ask about the torque+cadence sensing system. The ones I have heard about (Cyc again) sound like the absolutely ideal embodiment of what an Ebike should be. That is, its own thing and not beholden to analog/yesterday expectations. Cyc does it so torque is used from a dead stop to provide an initial get-going punch, whereby it switches to cadence (which as we know can be tuned to be very tame/responsive with the right system and settings). Is your system similar?

 

[m@Robertson]

Agreed, and why I mentioned LMX, SEM and BoxxBike as illustrations a few times

ok so you want credit for bringing it up. Congratulations.

 

[scrambler]

Not at ALL, I could not care less, just glad we agreed

 

[Deafcat]

BTW I want to ask about the torque+cadence sensing system - Is your system similar?

Proprietary system, can't talk much about it yet I'm afraid. I can say: It was designed to be used on other ebikes as well, not just on this particular system. It's also independent of how the signals are processed and utilized (that's more on the ESC/motor controller side of things).

 

[scrambler]

Proprietary system, can't talk much about it yet I'm afraid. I can say: It was designed to be used on other ebikes as well, not just on this particular system.

Will be very interested to read more about that part!

 

[Jon A]

A very interesting concept, one that would certainly take care of the drivetrain wear issues of a typical mid-drive. But it is also giving up the benefits of the gears of that drivetrain. I can see how this would result in little to no performance compromise for an offroad bike running 2500 watts. But what about when limited to 750W for a legal bike? How is it going to climb steep hills any better than a 750W hub drive? A 750W Ultra is a monster climbing steep hills such that it'll leave a 750W hub drive in the dust because it's going through the drivetrain. You'd loose that with this design.

 

[scrambler]

A 750W Ultra is a monster climbing steep hills such that it'll leave a 750W hub drive in the dust because it's going through the drivetrain. You'd loose that with this design.

This is a misconception that has already been discussed in other threads.
A motor of the power being discussed does not need multiple gears to do its job, it just needs the proper (single) ratio between the motor and the rear wheel.

The reason a motor like the Bafang or other mid drives do need multiple gears to be efficient, is because they are sharing the same drive train with pedaling, and pedaling do require a number of gears which in turn force the Motor to have a specific internal gear ratio that can be compatible with the multiple pedaling gear but would not be efficient as a single gear.

If the motor has its own drive train, it only needs One gear ratio that is appropriate for its power delivery.

 

[Jon A]

This is a misconception that has already been discussed in other threads.

Somebody may have a misconception alright, but it's not me. The ability of a motor to provide torque to the rear wheel through gearing has nothing to do with the rider's pedaling. The Ultra motor simply does not have a broad enough torque curve over a large enough RPM range to climb the steepest hills while still maintaining a reasonable top speed with a single gear. This motor would need to exceed its specs significantly (at a legal 750W level) in order to do so.

 

[scrambler]

I can't comment on the specifics of any particular motor like the Bafang as I have no way to know for sure what the rpm power curve would be without the internal gearing.
So you may very well be right on that specific motor.
I just wanted to make a general theoretical point

 

[Deafcat]

Ultra motor has 7.8 : 1 reduction ratio (when chainring and rear sprocket are 1:1, say 44t chainring and tall cassette low gear)

This motor has 10 : 1 reduction ratio.

At the same power level, this motor out-climbs, and out-tows the Ultra, typically. Once the power levels are increased sufficiently, the Ultra motor destroys its cassette or snaps the chain (or blows its internal one-way bearing), but no ill effects will be found on the dual drive.

 

[Jon A]

Thanks Deafcat, do you have comparative torque/power curves for the motor? Is it capable of substantially higher RPM than the Ultra when using a 48V battery?

 

[Jon A]

I just wanted to make a general theoretical point

I know, the problem was the point was wrong, even in theory.

It's math. You can't avoid it by swapping sides and eliminating cogs.

 

[JRA]

The 22nd can't come fast enough it seems....

 

[scrambler]

I know, the problem was the point was wrong, even in theory.

It's math. You can't avoid it by swapping sides and eliminating cogs.

Ebikes with a separate drive train for the motor don't need multiple gears for the motor, that is just a fact and my only point

 

[Jon A]

Ebikes with a separate drive train for the motor don't need multiple gears for the motor, that is just a fact and my only point

That technically is a fact. It's also a fact that performance for the same motor will be identical to the traditional mid-drive layout being stuck in a single gear.

 

[Gionnirocket]

So does this motor fit onto the Ultra bolt pattern?
Can somebody with a Frey EX can just bolt-on this motor?

I'm very curious if this motor is going to be a simple replacement of Ultra.

If you start from the beginning I believe it was stated that it will be able to mount with the Ultra mount.(post#10)
But thats only half the problem as the rear wheel would still need to have a left side drive cog along with chain and mounting clearances
So it's not just a motor swap

 

[scrambler]

If you start from the beginning I believe it was stated that it will be able to mount with the Ultra mount.(post#10)
But thats only half the problem as the rear wheel would still need to have a left side drive cog along with chain and mounting clearances

I actually wondered if they will provide special rear hubs with brake rotor and motor sprocket mounts on the left side that matches the Motor chain line of their motor, or adapters for several standard hubs that combine the Disc brake mount and the sprocket mount.

This is not completely trivial as the brake rotor position is not the same on all bikes ....
I also hope they can work with shorter hubs that 197mm, you do not need that much for brake and motor sprocket space. It would be interesting to see the Motor Chain line value on the left side.

 

[Gionnirocket]

The 22nd can't come fast enough it seems....

I can wait as I'm not looking to ride Everest or tow a mobile home. At this moment I enjoy powering as much as I can with my chicken legs and my tuned down 750w provides more than enough additional and not wearing out any drive components either. Honestly if I needed that much assistance I think I would go all in electric and just forget about pedals... But that's just me.
The only plus I see so far is that it's made in N. America and I'm sure there are some who would have a need... even if only for show.

 

[Marcela]

Something with that much power you could almost run a cvt type transmission.