Deacon Blues
Well-Known Member
Let's not get ahead of ourselves.
New motor: Made in Canada, 2022 Mid-drive system
- Thread starter Deafcat
- Start date
With reverse
m@Robertson
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
It does indeed sound like a jackshaft. That means a left-hand drivetrain of some sort to split off the assist duty from the traditional drivetrain. A belt on the left? Should be interesting to follow along.
And it fits into an M620/Ultra bolt pattern? Very interesting indeed. If you folks are inclined to make adapter mounting plates for, say, Shimano motors I know a LOT of cargo bike owners with dying Shimano motors that are no longer supported that are unhappy. Very unhappy when you consider what cargo bikes sell for in the first place. An aftermarket solution would find a home quickly.
In fact it sounds like this motor is aimed at the cargo niche at least in part.
And it fits into an M620/Ultra bolt pattern? Very interesting indeed. If you folks are inclined to make adapter mounting plates for, say, Shimano motors I know a LOT of cargo bike owners with dying Shimano motors that are no longer supported that are unhappy. Very unhappy when you consider what cargo bikes sell for in the first place. An aftermarket solution would find a home quickly.
In fact it sounds like this motor is aimed at the cargo niche at least in part.
Mike TowpathTraveler
Well-Known Member
@m@Robertson nails it. Take it a step further, if possible: make adapter kits available to retrofit obsolete/expensive Bosch, Yamaha, Brose factory-built bikes that are now collecting dust in the garage cause an unobtanium torque sensor parked the bike in the corner.
Really love the idea of a North American built and distributed ebike drive system. Well done!
Not crazy about a 40 mph top speed. That's not going to work in uber tightly restricted US municipal paths, while the easily offended, capricious mountain bikers will blow their tops when they find the kind of power this motor is laying down. With that kind of speed potential, you're talking full-on motorcycle helmet and riding gear, with the insurance and registration and licensing to go along with it, once these out of control local, state and federal governments get involved....
Deafcat has provided more info on this over on Reddit:
Specifically:
level 2
Deafcat22
OP·16 hr. ago
Biktrix Test Pilot
It sure feels like it has wings on the hill climbs!
All motor assist power is transferred to the rear end via independent belt/chain drive, with 10:1 reduction from the motor core... This provides incredibly good torque and power at the rear wheel, and removes all assist power from the bicycle chain.
The bike still uses a conventional pedal chain and derailleur (or you could go IGH etc). No motor power goes through that system, so they remain independent and provide redundancy.
So sort of like a geared hub motor with a torque sensor except better weight distribution and unsprung weight for full suspension designs. As others have surmised this is at the cost and complication of an added drive transfer linkage/extra weight probably on the left.
kmccune
Well-Known Member
I will add something else, this sounds fishy! and when the "Indiegogo" campaign starts do not throw your money away, these basically handmade prototypes have a way of being the entire production run, the alternate vehicle and fuel prototypes have a way of screaming"Caveat Emptor" these days and one other thing if these things actually exist, $9-10K price built bikes will not sell very many, despite being Fossil Fueled( as many of our ebikes actually are{ think Generation} ROKON will sell you a very capable rugged 2 wd"Trailbreaker" for around $9K and these things actually work.
So I am skeptical, as much as I wish this was "Bona Fida", the proof is in the pudding if Feb 22nd blows the bike industry over so be it!
So I am skeptical, as much as I wish this was "Bona Fida", the proof is in the pudding if Feb 22nd blows the bike industry over so be it!
kmccune
Well-Known Member
That actually sounds Chinese. This might turn out like the 39 cent forever stamps posted on "Fakebook". Scams make Me see red.
Gionnirocket
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Y. O.
Deafcat is a paid professional Biktrix cheerleader so the pre-release show here is all part of the plan.
It can still be something interesting.. but as usual with Biktrix, the delivery leaves a bad taste.
Deafcat
Active Member
- it does not rely on bicycle chain, but it still pedals like any bicycle, with up to 12 speeds
Clarification: the bike still uses bicycle chain on the pedal-power side. The power-train however uses it's own chain, independently. This provides redundancy between the two systems.
As for the peak system power (2500W) and top speeds, these are for reference performance, and testing the entire system+bikes to the extreme end. As with any other system (example: BBSHD, Ultra), the bikes are typically limited to comply with specific market requirements/typical power limits, speed limits.
Except of course for off-road applications.
Last edited:
JRA
Well-Known Member
Ok, so as the plot moistens here it seems that Biktrix is the ring leader for this effort and that the motor needs at least an Ultra cradle for implementing the drive on a bike. So one would suppose that Biktrix will be perhaps also announcing not just the new motor system but also the wheels it will attach to? So in other words a whole new bike in their lineup?
These teaser deals seem to be popular these days but I don't see that they really do any harm as long as the actual product being teased comes to pass and made available to those who want in. It doesn't seem to be hooked to a CSF so that is a positive to me because those are too iffy IHNSHO, and yes I did get burned by one a few years ago.....
I have already laid down my $$ for an Ultra bike that I am getting more and more happy with as time and tuning go on but not married to it by any means and if this motor comes up as a better option for my needs I might consider a swap but the first thing that sticks out to me is the square taper bb which is an issue for me at least because they just don't make good square taper cranks anymore. Especially in the 150-60mm range that I feel are more appropriate for e bike use in general.
These teaser deals seem to be popular these days but I don't see that they really do any harm as long as the actual product being teased comes to pass and made available to those who want in. It doesn't seem to be hooked to a CSF so that is a positive to me because those are too iffy IHNSHO, and yes I did get burned by one a few years ago.....
I have already laid down my $$ for an Ultra bike that I am getting more and more happy with as time and tuning go on but not married to it by any means and if this motor comes up as a better option for my needs I might consider a swap but the first thing that sticks out to me is the square taper bb which is an issue for me at least because they just don't make good square taper cranks anymore. Especially in the 150-60mm range that I feel are more appropriate for e bike use in general.
Mike TowpathTraveler
Well-Known Member
These motors are getting more powerful and powerful. Yet, they are still feeding into lightweight derailleurs and chains that were designed for human input. Even with our 70nm Yamaha's or early gen Bosch's, chain replacement and front and wear gear teeth wear is a fact of life never seen before by analog bikes.
Maybe some manufacturer is going to have to rethink these flimsy components and go all-in on a heavy duty ebike groupo set, featuring half inch or so wide chain links and appropriately beefed up front chain rings, rear cassette and derailleurs. No emphasis at all on light-weight. An entire re-think. I mean, such a super-duty group set would not do for a lightweight 80mm wide rim. And the days of 120tpi, lightweight tires would have to begin to take on the appearance and build of a tire made for a 125cc enduro motorcycle.
Each upgrade to accomodate a 40mph potential bicycle simply brings it closer to a small bore road motorcycle. At that point, not even sure if it would define what an ebike means under the Class 1, 2 or 3 rules, cause with this drivetrain, conventional rules are out the window. Can't imagine wanting to pedal around a bike like this with my old school 70nm Yamaha pw drive ebike!
Maybe some manufacturer is going to have to rethink these flimsy components and go all-in on a heavy duty ebike groupo set, featuring half inch or so wide chain links and appropriately beefed up front chain rings, rear cassette and derailleurs. No emphasis at all on light-weight. An entire re-think. I mean, such a super-duty group set would not do for a lightweight 80mm wide rim. And the days of 120tpi, lightweight tires would have to begin to take on the appearance and build of a tire made for a 125cc enduro motorcycle.
Each upgrade to accomodate a 40mph potential bicycle simply brings it closer to a small bore road motorcycle. At that point, not even sure if it would define what an ebike means under the Class 1, 2 or 3 rules, cause with this drivetrain, conventional rules are out the window. Can't imagine wanting to pedal around a bike like this with my old school 70nm Yamaha pw drive ebike!
Deafcat
Active Member
Deafcat
Active Member
"As for the peak system power (2500W) and top speeds, these are for reference performance, and testing the entire system+bikes to the extreme end. As with any other system (example: BBSHD, Ultra), the bikes are typically limited to comply with specific market requirements/typical power limits, speed limits.
Except of course for off-road applications."
Deafcat
Active Member
Mike TowpathTraveler
Well-Known Member
Tuesday we find out. 2500 watts is still, well, 2500 watts feeding the back wheel and the current crop of shimano and sram components are not built with that kind of power in mind. Unless you believe there is some kind of reduction gear transmission in the middle that has the abilty to ease that raw power from the motor. If so, you than have to ask, what is the point?
I kinda skim over the Watt Wagon's forums, and I believe people have had problems with their high powered motors making the rear cassette/derailleur skipping teeth in the high gear positions. Not sure if that ultimately was figured out to be a misaligned drivetrain/chain issue, derailleur adjustment or just too much power going into the drivetrain. But it will be interesting from an armchair engineers position to see what this set up does and addresses.
Myself, I'll just continue to plod along with my old school, low powered Yamaha PW!
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