My Thoughts on Mid Drive..Hub Drive and Throttle

[MechaNut]

The objective should be a change to any law saying throttles are not allowed. That's a poorly thought out dumb a** rule any way you slice it.

The other piece, other than the fact it's a dumb a** rule, is nobody is enforcing it, which would have a lot of people believing even law enforcement thinks of it as a dumb a** rule.....

As a technical person, by mindset and profession, I don't understand why class 1 vs class 2 is even a thing when the only functional difference between the two is a manual device to operate the motor vs. an automatic one. The top speeds are the same and from a purely mechanical standpoint the class 2 has less aggregate power when operating under throttle than the class 1 does. If the rider isn't pedaling the rider isn't contributing watts to propulsion so the class 2 has less aggregate power.

20 mph top speed is 20 mph top speed. Especially since most people's arguments against throttles are "you are riding too fast".

 

[linklemming]

I really don't understand this throttle controversy. It is totally a matter of opinion and personal preference. A throttle is a tool which, as mentioned earlier in this thread, can be useful under certain conditions.

If I were younger, I would likely feel that a throttle is a cop out and defeats the purpose of biking for exercise. Now, at 73, I wouldn't own a bike without one. Even though I can still comfortably ride a conventional bike, I don't know for sure just how long that will be the case. An e-bike is an expensive purchase that I want to be able to use for the foreseeable future.

My favorite type of riding is on long trails in some fairly remote areas. Since I'm never sure when my joint issues will flare up, a few years back, I had to give that up for fears of getting stranded by not being able to pedal back. My throttled e-bike changed all that and I'm now comfortable riding my favorite trails again. I can go farther and longer than I ever did before.

In addition to peace of mind, I also find a throttle useful when walking a heavy e-bike up slopes or even stairs.

I hear many say they would never buy a bike with a throttle. That's a shame because you've eliminated a good percentage of otherwise compatible models to choose from. If you want exercise, do what I do and DON'T USE IT. If you lack self control, turn it off or disconnect it.

The only down side to a throttle is it turns a class 1 bike into a class 2. For legal reasons, depending on your location, this could be a factor in where and how you ride. I don't know if simply turning off or disconnecting the throttle makes it legal on class 1 trails.

Conversly I hear many say they would not consider a bike without a throttle. That is also a shame as you are missing out on alot of high quality well designed mid drives with excellent torque sensors and pedal response. Perhaps that doesnt matter to you but it does to me due to most of the offroad terrain I ride on. I cant think of an ebike with a throttle that I would consider for serious offroad use.

I do have a throttle on my Juiced CCX. Do I use it? Yes for many situations people are describing. Do I need it? Not at all

 

[Mass Deduction]

So the bottom line, when asked if you are looking for a bike with a throttle, the correct answer is yes please!

For me, no. I can't argue with @BBassett's point that having one and not using it is better than not having it and wishing you did. Absolutely, I cannot and will not argue against that, that makes perfect sense.

But if I were looking for an e-bike, I would not specifically look for one with a throttle. If I bought a new e-bike, and if it happened to already have a throttle on it, I would leave it on (unless I was sufficiently desperate for additional handlebar space, or wanted to ride in areas where throttle-equipped bikes are banned, in which case I would take it off).

But each new e-bike I purchase is lighter weight than the previous one, and the lighter weight e-bikes typically don't have throttles (due to decisions by Shimano, Bosch, Yamaha, etc., to not support throttles, not due to any technical limitation). So specifically looking for an e-bike with a throttle would probably work against other goals I would have for a new e-bike purchase.

 

[Mass Deduction]

I really don't understand this throttle controversy. It is totally a matter of opinion and personal preference. A throttle is a tool which, as mentioned earlier in this thread, can be useful under certain conditions.
[…]

I believe, from a legal standpoint, they are attempting to distinguish between bikes that you can pedal vs. bikes that you must pedal. Right now many jurisdictions have poor definition of what an e-bike is. Is an e-bike something that looks like a Vespa scooter but has pedals in the back where the rider can't even reach them? By banning bikes with throttles from an area, you ban units like that.

A legitimate class 2 bike is getting caught in the crossfire there, which sucks for a place where a legit class 2 bike would be appropriate even if a scooter-type so-called-ebike is deemed inappropriate there by the powers that be.

I think it's likely that e-bikes will continue to get lighter weight and more powerful. Specifically, I think the amount of torque per watt will continue to increase (the holy grail is more torque per watt, not more watts, IMO). As that happens, there's a danger of people ripping around on class-2 e-bikes in ways that might be inappropriate, so making the distinction now may future-proof policy. Or that may be part of their thinking, at any rate.

Feel free to agree or disagree with public policy, but I think this is part of what's underpinning it. At what point does a super-powered class-2 e-bike get a little too close to a motocross bike for comfort, for certain areas, for example.

 

[indianajo]

Lots of people seem to value a throttle, and I'm genuinely curious as to why. If I'm tired/sick I'll just pedal very gently. If I'm feeling my Wheaties I'll pedal hard. But short of a mobility impairment, I can't imagine a scenario where I'd prefer to not pedal at all.

Where did you do your time in the military? Coast Guard? Glad you are a great swimmer.
My knees are complete missing any cartlege, with bone spurs in addition. True of most Viet Nam era Army & Marine vets. We had to run in combat boots. "Prevents injury" the pentagon office told a member of my Advanced Course class that complained. Yeah, as long as you count inability to walk after 20 years the VA's problem, not the Army's. Soldiers that failed the PT test at 18 years due to knees saved the Dept of Army a lot of money on pensions (you have to serve 20 to get anything).
I ride 70 miles/week summers, to keep my heart in shape. Mostly unpowered, unless the wind is 25 mph in my face. It is also fun. I can't run anymore, walking is problematic, and if I twist my knee the slightest amount with weight on it, I have severe pain for days. No polka dancing or zumba. Swimming would be great exercise, but I nearly drown in the snot that I suffer. "Just stay home if you have a problem" . I'm 30 miles from home at my summer camp which is one of my luxuries. If I ruin my knee out there, phone service doesn't work and taxi's couldn't find that place anyway. I don't run cars anymore, read Greta Thunberg day in NYC. My bike with a throttle will get me home when I run out of food or have an appointment in town, however my knees feel.
I can't believe Indiana just followed the lemmings over the cliff and outlawed class 3. I suppose I should buy one of those 60 mph 4 wheel gas ATV's all the neighbors race around my place (posted 30 mph). But the city won't allow "agricultural equipment" in the limits. I just better not hit anything on my bike, cause I'm not taking the throttle off. When the bike was hit & run by a car Labor Day, I didn't call the cops. I'm an outlaw, should have been walking in that crosswalk when he hit me.

 

[AHicks]

At what point does a super-powered class-2 e-bike get a little too close to a motocross bike for comfort, for certain areas, for example.

I'm not clear on why you are lumping "super powered" and any similarity to a motocross bike, with a class 2 rating, when the ONLY difference (class 1 vs. class 2) is the throttle? Is there an issue with "super powered" class 1 bikes? Or maybe class 1 bikes resembling motocross bikes? If no, explain why you would consider a class 2 an issue.

In any case, doesn't the 20 mph limit pretty much put dampers on both those concepts?

 

[Mass Deduction]

I haven't quoted everything you said because I agree with most of it, but I did want to address a few points.

[…] Bosch started promoting this mid drive concept because they build hundreds of thousands of tiny motors for the automotive industry, (wanting to leverage that scale) and others like brose followed suit. Yamaha too builds all kinds of products, motors, engines, and had the expertise to build their mid drive and it was successful and reliable before Bosch achieved that. Even as recent as 2013, a lot of these mid drives were terrible in terms of reliability. A number of starts and complete stops and withdrawals of product happened.

The debate between hub motors and mid-drives is hardly a new one, there are patents for each of them dating back to the late 1800s. Both have gone through a whole lot of starts and stops for over a century!

Now many people have short memories and think these mid drives have been 'perfect.' They are far more complex in terms of software needed to keep from destroying the gearing system, and bearings, and require significantly more precision to manufacturer which makes them about 5 times the cost of a hub drive. In the long run, you will pay more for any mid drive, both on materials and labor, which also requires more expertise.

Maybe that's true in theory, it hasn't been our experience in practice. BionX is generally thought of as a quality producer of DD hub drives. When we were selling BionX bikes and kits, our customers had significantly more maintenance hassles then than our customers buying bikes with Bosch, Yamaha, or Shimano motors do today. Ditto customers coming in with inexpensive direct-to-consumer hub motor e-bikes today, vs. customers coming in with e-bikes from Trek, Giant, etc.

Sure, we're one shop out of thousands, and perhaps our experience isn't typical. But we sell hundreds of e-bikes a year, and work on hundreds more bought elsewhere, and we've been selling e-bikes since 2003, so I'm not sure why our experience wouldn't be typical.

And Bosch and Yamaha and Brose charge an extreme premium for their branded batteries. They hold the consumer hostage on that. [...]

Are Bosch, Yamaha, and Brose charging an extreme premium for their battery packs? It seems to me their battery packs cost about the same as BionX, TranzX, Pedego, etc. Yes, they're probably more expensive than DIY kits. So is a production-line PC vs. a home-assembled PC. I also suspect there may be quality differences between, say, a Bosch pack and a cheap pack. But I'm willing to be convinced otherwise by people who may know more about them than I do.

 

[Mass Deduction]

I'm not clear on why you are lumping "super powered" and any similarity to a motocross bike, with a class 2 rating, when the ONLY difference (class 1 vs. class 2) is the throttle? Is there an issue with "super powered" class 1 bikes? Or maybe class 1 bikes resembling motocross bikes? If no, explain why you would consider a class 2 an issue.

In any case, doesn't the 20 mph limit pretty much put dampers on both those concepts?

You quoted me out of context. I said that in the context of *future* class-2 e-bikes, nothing currently on the market today.

I also was suggesting that the throttle-only difference between class 1 and class 2 was an important difference in this regard to people writing the regulations. I wasn't defending the position, I was trying to point out what I think regulators are thinking.

The top speed does affect, but does not entirely put the dampers on both concepts. There are situations where a motocross bike going uphill may not go much faster than 32 km/h, for example.

 

[Mass Deduction]

Where did you do your time in the military? Coast Guard? Glad you are a great swimmer.[…]

I think you meant to address this to someone else, I've never been in the military, and I'm a merely passable swimmer.

 

[AHicks]

You quoted me out of context. I said that in the context of *future* class-2 e-bikes, nothing currently on the market today.

I also was suggesting that the throttle-only difference between class 1 and class 2 was an important difference in this regard to people writing the regulations. I wasn't defending the position, I was trying to point out what I think regulators are thinking.

The top speed does affect, but does not entirely put the dampers on both concepts. There are situations where a motocross bike going uphill may not go much faster than 32 km/h, for example.

My point is, you are referencing the potential for class 2 bikes in a manner that somehow makes their performance characteristics "different" than a class 1, specifically in a manner that somehow might make them more dangerous. I don't know how this might be taken out of context.

If you want to talk about climbing a steep hill at a speed resembling that of a motocross bike, why are we not talking about a mid drive equipped class 1 rather than a just a focus on class 2?

 

[PDXzap]

I really don't understand this throttle controversy.

Me either.
Back in the day throttle was all there was, you learned the best way to use it. It did get a bit tiring after a while having to constantly either twist or push it. The first time I tried a PAS system I was but I couldn't afford the bike it was attached to, I continued to use the throttle.

 

[Mass Deduction]

My point is, you are referencing the potential for class 2 bikes in a manner that somehow makes their performance characteristics "different" than a class 1, specifically in a manner that somehow might make them more dangerous. I don't know how this might be taken out of context.

If you want to talk about climbing a steep hill at a speed resembling that of a motocross bike, why are we not talking about a mid drive equipped class 1 rather than a just a focus on class 2?

You quoted and replied to me as if I were making that argument, that is the difference in context I was pointing to. I was (and am) merely speculating that this is the way regulators are looking at it. It's not how I look at it. That is true of both of the things you said in response here.

 

[JRA]

"At what point does a super-powered class-2 e-bike get a little too close to a motocross bike for comfort, for certain areas, for example."

If the bike exceeds legal wattage to get those super powers it is illegal to ride on other than private land even if it has the best PAS on the planet.

I'm with Mechanut on this. Having a throttle in control of the motor power does not all the sudden turn it into something more powerful. Also throttles can easily be restricted to say 10mph while the PAS allows the system to go all the way to the legal limit. Very handy for starting off in all situations to get settled on the bike and get your feet moving, the odd blip in tight situations or like I did yesterday go through about 90' of standing water that was a bit less than bb deep and I didn't want to get my feet wet as it was wet and cold enough already.

Recently I have been doing a lot of exploration of new terrain leading me into some situations where I need to get off the bike and push through sand pits, brush and up and over obstacles. The benefit of having a throttle in these situations to use as a walk assist is invaluable even though my bike is on the lighter end of the eBike scale. I realize that there are walk assist buttons, which are a form of throttle, on some brands but what would irk me to no end with them is that the cranks revolve also with those systems and that is goofy. They would be whacking me in the calf or getting caught on undergrowth all the time. The throttle feature on my bike does not do that and allows me greater control over the bikes forward progress alongside.

If someone chooses to just use their eBike solely via the throttle which is what the Class 2 "Pedal No" law suggests then that is their loss as riding a bike is about self propulsion and the benefits gained from that in the form of exercise. But the fact that there is no differentiation between Class 1 and 2 as far as legal access according to the Class rules it just points even more to the fact that the manufacturers don't want to deal with the throttle issue due to the EU regs which have never allowed them and the fact that most of them follow those regs as the EU market is the largest segment at this time, other than the Chinese market which has no regs and have throttles....

 

[indianajo]

I think you meant to address this to someone else, I've never been in the military, and I'm a merely passable swimmer.

Men do their time in the armed forces. Why didn't you? You don't understand why anybody needs a throttle?
My knee cartlege was donated to the USA. Didn't get shot at, no PTSD, but I need a throttle to cope with the bad knee days. The state would love for me to ride a powered wheelchair from my summer camp to town, other than the fact that they won't go through ditches, move through grassy fields, and riding on the pavement would get me flattened. Won't make 30 miles, either.

 

[Mass Deduction]

"At what point does a super-powered class-2 e-bike get a little too close to a motocross bike for comfort, for certain areas, for example."

If the bike exceeds legal wattage to get those super powers it is illegal to ride on other than private land even if it has the best PAS on the planet.

That wasn't my point. My point is that bikes are getting more torque on a per-watt basis *within* the current legal limits.

I'm with Mechanut on this. Having a throttle in control of the motor power does not all the sudden turn it into something more powerful.[...]

Agreed. I can only reiterate that I'm trying to guess the perspective regulators have, not sharing my personal opinion.

Throttles may give more immediate access to power since the need to pedal to get at the power is removed. Though the use of throttles reduces range, it increases the number of situations where a motor's full power is on display. I'm guessing this fact weighs heavily in the minds of some regulators, but that's only a guess!

 

[JRA]

it increases the number of situations where a motor's full power is on display. I'm guessing this fact weighs heavily in the minds of some regulators, but that's only a guess!

There is only so much torque and "full power" you can squeeze out of even 2 h.p., legal limit being 1 of course. A lighter eBike with a lighter rider will have a better power to weight ratio given the same motor system but only marginally so. The regulators need to take some ex lax and get over it.

I just watched Micah's 2019 Moto list and they are all way more capable of going the speed limit as well as just about any car on the road today. I would think they would be more worried about that.

 

[Mass Deduction]

Men do their time in the armed forces. Why didn't you? You don't understand why anybody needs a throttle?
[...]

In many countries, many women do time in the armed forces too. What's your point? Not everyone can or should do a stint in military service, IMO. Joining the Canadian Forces isn't something that appealed to me, and I don't think that put the country in jeopardy.

And I don't think I ever once said I didn't understand why anybody needs a throttle. I acknowledged that mobility impairment was one obvious good reason for a throttle. I also went on to say that "I'm getting the impression that there are some people who get some legitimate use out of it, but for reasons that wouldn't benefit me..."

 

[tomjasz]

"I'm getting the impression that there are some people who get some legitimate use out of it, but for reasons that wouldn't benefit me..."

Well isn't that nice to read, I have a legitimate reason. I'm relieved.

 

[Mass Deduction]

Well isn't that nice to read, I have a legitimate reason. I'm relieved.

You appear to have misunderstood. I didn't say legitimate reason, I legitimate use. Legitimate meaning "conforming to the law or to rules." Meaning, a legitimate bike with a throttle used in a legitimate way (as opposed to a de-regulated e-bike, or a class 2 e-bike that's being used in an area where throttle-equipped bikes aren't allowed, or an e-bike that exceeds the legal wattage limits, etc.).

If you'd prefer, my sentence works just as well with that word removed, so if it disturbs your Wa then I recommend you read my sentence without it.

 

[Lightning P38]

Geared hubs pretty much all use a 5:1 gear ratio, which works well from a stop on up to about 20 mph. They're most effective getting the bike moving in a hurry and then from say 10 mph to 15mph. They're capable of faster, but they are running past their peak we'll say. If you are known for pulling up to a stop and forgetting to downshift, the hub drive may work out better for you. It doesn't care what gear you start out in.

A mid drive has the gearing advantage of any gear the bike has available, including a granny gear used for climbing walls. They're both nice and peppy systems, especially as compared to a direct drive, which really doesn't start coming into it's own until about 15mph.

Personally, for my purposes, I believe the mid drive price is hard to justify.

I installed my ebike.kit this past January.
My geared 36 volt 500 watt motor does everything I want. It seems to be a perfect match for my speed and hill assist with my recumbent bike. I have had my Lightning P38 for 20 years and 17,500 miles of fun.

When I climb a long hill, I keep the pas setting at 3 or less, so I am drawing less current and not draining the battery or overheating the motor. Without the motor I would be walking up the hill, due to a heart health issue.

But, one thing I have noticed is that the shorter spokes in the wheel makes the wheel stiffer, more like a 20” wheel feels on my trike. That plus the extra weight of the wheel and the rack mounted battery, seems to give a more jarring ride over bumps, road cracks, and road patches. I now have 90 miles on the kit. My recumbent does not have suspension.

I just bought a used full suspension recumbent bike to move the ekit over to at the end of this riding season. It has a 26” rear wheel, but my electric wheel is a 700c wheel, so I will have the motor re-laced to a 26” rim. Plus the suspension bike will fit a bit wider tires to.