My 2017 Brose Motor, SLOW as molasses, SAD, such a good looking bike..

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Have you had a chance to compare the ride between a Bafang bike and your BULLS? Interested in finding out how different the two PAS systems feel. A throttled 1000w/52v/30amp system would address any concerns about power for larger riders, but is that overkill for an ebike? If the low watt bikes produced today are too much like classic bicycles in terms of available power, are the 1000w+ bikes too much like electric mopeds?

I have ridden the BBS-HD motor and it's not too bad but there is a clear difference between its cadence sensing and torque sensing mechanisms. With programming, you can smooth out the BBS-HD system but it simply won't match the refined ride quality of Bosch/Brose/yamaha.
To put it in the crudest way..
Riding a torque-sensing bike is like the viagra pill.. you know it's still you and feel like the man !
BBS-HD is like watching your wife play with a Hitachi wand. You clearly know it's not you and you could never make her come that quick but hey, both are happy in the end..

 

[Goodair]

I got the software upgrade, marginal difference, kinda sad, still no huevos on grades greater than 10%. So sad!!!!

 

[RoadWrinkle]

I got the software upgrade, marginal difference, kinda sad, still no huevos on grades greater than 10%. So sad!!!!

Sorry to hear that, I am guessing BULLS/Brose has a conservative motor regime to protect the internal belt for reliability. Firmware update to make each of the sensors more responsive (literally more sensitive) to rider input would solve the problem so why don't they do it? The belt. Good news is your fitness level will go up and your legs will get stronger and stronger with the Brose "classic bike" feel.

 

[Sonoboy]

Been following this thread for a while. I'm sorry, but Torque is Torque. It seems the manufacturers are pulling a fast one on the consumer by marketing these bikes as something they're not. Not when one can only achieve the rated specs for "X" amount of time, which is controlled by thermal sensors and an algorithm. This really points to the need for a standardized test to level the playing field. This reminds me of the cheaper smartphones that boast about the number of processor cores and RAM...and then throttle back 15 minutes into a game to avoid self immolation.

I hope this discussion is viewed far and wide. Buyer beware!

 

[PaulGee]

Goodair ... Sorry to hear that the update did not meet your expectations. Just curious, how much do you weigh?

 

[RoadWrinkle]

It seems the manufacturers are pulling a fast one on the consumer by marketing these bikes as something they're not.

I Agree, if you check the websites of nearly all ebike manufacturers that sell brose systems (and the other motors as well) you will find the word "powerful" somewhere to describe their 250w/36-37v/15a systems. IMO, for most ebike riders, BULLS/Brose went too far with the "classic bike" feel design objective; these bikes seem like they were built for very fit MTB riders only; if you feel over worked, your not fit enough for their PAS sensors.

 

[fxr3]

$5100, thats 1/4 of Toyota Prius.... Your motor is 350watt vs my is at 250watt, you would think it can handle a little more than 10% grade. I heard the new Shimano 8000 motor is the one to buy, might sell my bike to wait for that... Its on the Focus E Jam2 in Europe, Bulls has a 2018 version with Di2 coming, can't wait to see it at Interbike...

What the hell does a toyota prius have to do with anything? I say its 1/10th of 1 percent of a brand new Honda Personal Jet!
Goodair has been all over the place in his opinion of bulls/brose and that should be considered.
My bulls es 45 fs will walk up a 4 to 1 slope in low gear easy as can be. Thats 25% or 14 degree.
I just had my firmware updated and did some serious street climbing here in SLC, prolly between 6- 12% at maybe 1o to 15 mph and for the first time could really see how a mountain biker could appreciate that kind of torque. I bought my bike to turn it into a cushy flat street transportation bike, but it fell short of my benchmark st2. In fairness, my st2 would not climb those steep grades near as well(with me pedalling it).

 

[fxr3]

Sorry to hear that, I am guessing BULLS/Brose has a conservative motor regime to protect the internal belt for reliability. Firmware update to make each of the sensors more responsive (literally more sensitive) to rider input would solve the problem so why don't they do it? The belt. Good news is your fitness level will go up and your legs will get stronger and stronger with the Brose "classic bike" feel.

Are tou suggesting the belt wont hold up?

 

[fxr3]

Been following this thread for a while. I'm sorry, but Torque is Torque. It seems the manufacturers are pulling a fast one on the consumer by marketing these bikes as something they're not. Not when one can only achieve the rated specs for "X" amount of time, which is controlled by thermal sensors and an algorithm. This really points to the need for a standardized test to level the playing field. This reminds me of the cheaper smartphones that boast about the number of processor cores and RAM...and then throttle back 15 minutes into a game to avoid self immolation.

I hope this discussion is viewed far and wide. Buyer beware!

I think everyone(including myself) is getting ahead of themselves. Emtnbike magizine results were something less than 20% difference between all motor mfg.
That could easily get gobbled up in asthetics alone(imo). And lets not forget the performance upgrades that are sure to follow. Rarely does a new harley leave the dealer without what used to be carb, ignition and pipes(now prolly mapping and pipes).
Or a ktm dirtbike that will wheelie at 40mph with a twist of the throttle, yet pipe and headwork are usually done.
Ever watch a stock car race? Do those look like a typical impala?
The performance dongle is right around the corner.
And in my old man, non typical ebiker- i still dont notice any power difference between brose, and bosch.
As far as looks go- yea, i notice a difference.

 

[RoadWrinkle]

Are tou suggesting the belt wont hold up?

No, I think their engineers know what they are doing, they used the belt for a reason. My guess is the conservative motor regime is all part of the design to make sure the belt will have the same reliability as hard gears. We know a 250w/36v/15a system can produce adequate assist for most riders (Bosch and Yamaha have proved that) SO why does the same configuration (with 37v) in the Brose system feel under-powered? Can only be the software parameters in my mind. That means it is fixable with an update but they don't release anything that makes a big difference in available power, why?

Be nice to the OP, he has a right to his opinion and he is not the only BULLS customer with power issues.

 

[RoadWrinkle]

I would assume the belt is designed to match the system, and not the other way around.

Are we discussing Semantics? I didn't write the system was designed around the belt. All of the internal parts are designed to integrate and work together; its not like they just pulled a belt off the shelve AFTER they designed the system. My point was the firmware settings may be conservative as part of the overall system design...which includes protecting a belt.

 

[fxr3]

Are we discussing Semantics? I didn't write the system was designed around the belt. All of the internal parts are designed to integrate and work together; its not like they just pulled a belt off the shelve AFTER they designed the system. My point was the firmware settings may be conservative as part of the overall system design...which includes protecting a belt.

 

[fxr3]

I 1000% agree with you. The power is likely there. I just had my firmware and parameters updated and maxed and although i'm at 4200 ft. Now, it did do some impressive multi block street climbing yesterday. My only other experiences are flatland transportation type stuff- and it falls short(compared to st2).
And i dont like to talk smack publically about goodair. But on that other thread he jumped from mad at bulls to happy with bulls, then from getting dealer update to publically warning me against dealer update as he heard motors were being messed up because of it. Thats too inconsistant and unfair toBulls, Brose and anyone trying to figure out whats what.
Once i get back around sea level, ill be able to tell how firmware and software upgrades helped. Personally, i still cant tell much difference between bosch and brose. Well, until i look at them.

 

[fxr3]

Are we discussing Semantics? I didn't write the system was designed around the belt. All of the internal parts are designed to integrate and work together; its not like they just pulled a belt off the shelve AFTER they designed the system. My point was the firmware settings may be conservative as part of the overall system design...which includes protecting a belt.

I think my problem is when i think of belts, the total bulletproof harley final drive belt is what registers in my mind. So, i always consider a belt far superior to chain, even though this is belt vs. gear to gear. Im not the sharpest pencil in pencil jar. I just like the whole ebike thing enough to add my 2 cents on some of this stuff.

 

[pxpaulx]

I think my problem is when i think of belts, the total bulletproof harley final drive belt is what registers in my mind. So, i always consider a belt far superior to chain, even though this is belt vs. gear to gear. Im not the sharpest pencil in pencil jar. I just like the whole ebike thing enough to add my 2 cents on some of this stuff.

totally agree on the belts thing. If they can drive full vehicle drive trains i hardly doubt the stress of a bicycle crank would do a one inch belt in very easily.

I'm going on record here as liking brose the most hands down over Yamaha and Bosch, haven't ridden the steps motor at this point.

 

[Larry Ganz]

I think my problem is when i think of belts, the total bulletproof harley final drive belt is what registers in my mind. So, i always consider a belt far superior to chain, even though this is belt vs. gear to gear. Im not the sharpest pencil in pencil jar. I just like the whole ebike thing enough to add my 2 cents on some of this stuff.

Hah! 20 years ago I snapped a drive belt on my 1996 Sportster Sport in the middle of a particularly vicious wheelie. The Outpost Harley Dealer in Pueblo CO had to come out and rescue me...

PS: No, I was not stock - 74ftlbs 72whp at 6500 feet elevation.

 

[fxr3]

Hah! 20 years ago I snapped a drive belt on my 1996 Sportster Sport in the middle of a particularly vicious wheelie. The Outpost Harley Dealer in Pueblo CO had to come out and rescue me...

PS: No, I was not stock - 74ftlbs 72whp at 6500 feet elevation.

Ive had several fxrs and more recently a roadglide. You have to admit- snapping a belt is as rare as a harley wheelie!
I was at a red light a couple years ago, next to me was a ha looking guy, when light turned green he took off sideways, feet on the pegs through first and second! I was like ok, thats cool.

 

[fxr3]

The Bulls FS 45 fell short in what way? Not as cushy as you wanted, as the ST2, some other issue?

Power. Maintaining mid- twentys. I have heart failure and sometimes feel fatigued and/or shortness of breath though. It is plenty cushy, once my savy neighbor dialed it in.

 

[fxr3]

Power. Maintaining mid- twentys. I have heart failure and sometimes feel fatigued and/or shortness of breath though. It is plenty cushy, once my savy neighbor dialed it in.

Its close though, with a 10 knot tail wind and the slighest downhill i can maintain low to mid- twentys. This recent firmware update might be just what dr. Ordered?

 

[RoadWrinkle]

probably the FS 3 non-plus... or the FS 45. I'm having trouble making up my mind

I know the fs 3 has a 250w motor, think the 45 has a 350w b/c its a speed pedalec. As far as I know all the Brose ebike motors have belts regardless of the bike brand. I have not seen any BULLS bikes that are cheap or poorly designed across all models. They make great bikes with top components, thru axles, total integration, huge battery range. As long as you feel you are getting the assist you want, can't go wrong with a BULLS.