My 2017 Brose Motor, SLOW as molasses, SAD, such a good looking bike..

[bob armani]

I got the software upgrade, marginal difference, kinda sad, still no huevos on grades greater than 10%. So sad!!!!

Goodair-Sounds like you are about to 'throw the towel in' on this whole experience. Marginal difference is unacceptable IMO and I am now thinking on staying away from BULLS altogether after seeing this issue through. 10% grade is not all that much. This is the VERY reason why we purchase ebikes to help us up those tiresome grades! Makes no sense that BULLS would not do full test grade rides to ensure they are keeping with the competition. I have yet to hear about this issue with Yamaha motors on Haibike or Giant. I think I will lean towards these brands.
BTW-I tested a Turbo Levo with a Brose' recently ($4000 dollar bike) and was not impressed with the motor performance/response at all! I was expecting more power on flat terrain! The other Haibike /Yamaha's were much more 'zippy' on a bike at about 1/2 the price. Buyer beware!

 

[PaulGee]

I know the fs 3 has a 250w motor, think the 45 has a 350w b/c its a speed pedalec. As far as I know all the Brose ebike motors have belts regardless of the bike brand. I have not seen any BULLS bikes that are cheap or poorly designed across all models. They make great bikes with top components, thru axles, total integration, huge battery range. As long as you feel you are getting the assist you want, can't go wrong with a BULLS.

Exactly ..."assist you want" ...everyone's needs and wants are different. After all, I am sure that is why Bulls offers motor choices (including new "powerful" shimano e8000 in Europe and soon in USA). They could however be more clear on their advertzing on which bike/motor may best suit riders riding preference. I blame Brose not Bulls for misleading questionable torque claim, not surprising though since they all are in the business of hyping their products.

 

[bob armani]

Is BullsUSA footing the bill for this flash? I bought my FS3 from Motostrano and I was told that if there's any warranty work, the parts will be replaced but I'd have to pay for labor. I'm assuming if I want my bike flashed to the current software, I'd have to pay for it.

This is my first time delving into commercial e-bike. Do all the other big companies make you pay for labor on warranty work? I'm seriously regretting not going with Specialized bike at this point. I never had to spend a dime on regular specialized bike warranty work, I'm assuming that it's the same for their e-bike.

Mikey-I asked the same question at my LBS and they indicated that LABOR is not included with any warranty work, especially when you did not purchase the bike from them. Looks like the going rate is $70 per/hr. So. if an update takes like 15 mins, they will probably still charge you for the full hour labor. Another $$$ making venture for the dealer when this s/b included with the purchase of your bike (for at least during the warranty period) IMHO!

 

[FooDoDaddy]

To add to this, I have had an e-motion 650b for 2 years (30 speed), and love it, but off road the rear hub motor just can't cut it. So I just bought a 2016 Bulls E-Stream EVO FS 3 29er (22 speed) with Brose for $3,099 (big sale!). I've seen tons of reviews about how good the Brose motor is. I road it on a 20 mile bike ride with some hills and was not impressed. A little background, I have an ICD, and heart disease (from a virus), but I'm not too much of a slouch for a 52 year old. Anyway, on the 650B I cruise around usually on eco mode with my son at 12-15, or solo on boost and cruse at 20-23. I get a good workout, but it doesn't kill me.

With the Brose (updated) 4 power levels, on high, or any level, the basic work I have to put in to just trigger any assistance is very high for me, on top of that power cuts out at 18 MPH, that is a big difference compared with 21 MPH. So I go slower and work harder, alot harder. My average BPM was about 130 on the 650B at 20 MPH, where the Brose is more like 140-150 at 18 MPH. Be aware it didn't matter if I was going 18, or 14, the effort appeared the same. It's not all is bad with the Brose, I peddled up a very steep canal embankment in the lowest gear that I would never make with the 650B.

I thought I would sell the 650B, but I guess not. The Brose seem good for only tight off road in low gears. So I can re-live my youth on trails I use to do with my 1995 IBOC (no shocks at all). I plan on doing everything I can to modify the Brose top speed, not happy it's cutting out 2 MPH before 20.

 

[Larry Ganz]

To add to this, I have had an e-motion 650b for 2 years (30 speed), and love it, but off road the rear hub motor just can't cut it. So I just bought a 2016 Bulls E-Stream EVO FS 3 29er (22 speed) with Brose for $3,099 (big sale!). I've seen tons of reviews about how good the Brose motor is. I road it on a 20 mile bike ride with some hills and was not impressed. A little background, I have an ICD, and heart disease (from a virus), but I'm not too much of a slouch for a 52 year old. Anyway, on the 650B I cruise around usually on eco mode with my son at 12-15, or solo on boost and cruse at 20-23. I get a good workout, but it doesn't kill me.

With the Brose (updated) 4 power levels, on high, or any level, the basic work I have to put in to just trigger any assistance is very high for me, on top of that power cuts out at 18 MPH, that is a big difference compared with 21 MPH. So I go slower and work harder, alot harder. My average BPM was about 130 on the 650B at 20 MPH, where the Brose is more like 140-150 at 18 MPH. Be aware it didn't matter if I was going 18, or 14, the effort appeared the same. It's not all is bad with the Brose, I peddled up a very steep canal embankment in the lowest gear that I would never make with the 650B.

I thought I would sell the 650B, but I guess not. The Brose seem good for only tight off road in low gears. So I can re-live my youth on trails I use to do with my 1995 IBOC (no shocks at all). I plan on doing everything I can to modify the Brose top speed, not happy it's cutting out 2 MPH before 20.

Check and see if you can have the bike shop reprogram the computer? Also, check if there is a setting for changing the wheel diameter or the tire circumference, and if it has that then changing it could let you travel a little faster, even if the programming thinks it's cutting out at 18mph you'd really be doing 20.

 

[MLB]

You don't like working harder, but you're doing it. As YOU get stronger, the bike will too. At least in terms of giving you more boost. What you are experiencing is what I like about mid drives with good torque sensors, you have to work for the boost. Mid drives are the smallest motors used for ebikes. Good torque but the smallest hp (hp is speed, torque is climbing ability)
Yes my hub motored bikes are faster and give more boost easier. (all brands)
But I spend 90% of my rides on the mid drive because it's much more like riding a bike.
My Haibike (and all others I've heard discussed that aren't speed pedalec) cuts out at 19mph and that's annoying, so I feel you on the 18mph and I don't know WHY that is when it's all digital....

To add to this, I have had an e-motion 650b for 2 years (30 speed), and love it, but off road the rear hub motor just can't cut it. So I just bought a 2016 Bulls E-Stream EVO FS 3 29er (22 speed) with Brose for $3,099 (big sale!). I've seen tons of reviews about how good the Brose motor is. I road it on a 20 mile bike ride with some hills and was not impressed. A little background, I have an ICD, and heart disease (from a virus), but I'm not too much of a slouch for a 52 year old. Anyway, on the 650B I cruise around usually on eco mode with my son at 12-15, or solo on boost and cruse at 20-23. I get a good workout, but it doesn't kill me.

With the Brose (updated) 4 power levels, on high, or any level, the basic work I have to put in to just trigger any assistance is very high for me, on top of that power cuts out at 18 MPH, that is a big difference compared with 21 MPH. So I go slower and work harder, alot harder. My average BPM was about 130 on the 650B at 20 MPH, where the Brose is more like 140-150 at 18 MPH. Be aware it didn't matter if I was going 18, or 14, the effort appeared the same. It's not all is bad with the Brose, I peddled up a very steep canal embankment in the lowest gear that I would never make with the 650B.

I thought I would sell the 650B, but I guess not. The Brose seem good for only tight off road in low gears. So I can re-live my youth on trails I use to do with my 1995 IBOC (no shocks at all). I plan on doing everything I can to modify the Brose top speed, not happy it's cutting out 2 MPH before 20.

 

[Solom01]

I don't want to sound like a downer, but I wish people would think about other people and not be so self-centered. "As YOU get stronger...", well some of us have health issues such as heart problems, MS, and others and some are simply seniors (by the way, this is the fastest growing segment of the population) and don't have the ability to work harder. This is the same attitude as "well if you need more help you should just get a moped". I get it, if people can't handle the effort needed to use a midmotor ebike they should just sit at home and rot instead of enjoying being outside with their friends and getting some exercise - just remember that a lot of non-ebike users consider people using any type of ebike including non-throttle midmotors to be lazy and cheats.

 

[MLB]

look in the mirror!
Almost everyone can get stronger, regardless of ailments and age.
Exercise is one of the best things for MS and many many other diseases. Well known facts.
MOST of what we percieve as a results of aging are in fact results of DIS-USE as people stop doing things because they are getting old.
Research clearly shows that at ANY age (90 y/o's too) we get much much stronger with any amount of increased muscle work.
So lumping everyone that's aging (Im 58) and has problems (2 torns acls, 2 torn rotator cuffs, none fixed surgically, repeat stress fractures of the feet, ankle problems, etc) with you and your heart problem (I'm sorry) is not just grumpy and downer, it's plain wrong.
Secondly 'stronger" in biking terms doesn't just mean strength. there's strength of riding skill, knowledge, using the gears correctly, etc All MUCH more important on a mid drive with it's power than on a hub drive.
Were you a biker before the Ebike? Many were not and need to learn to use the gears.
Bigger, stronger hub motors lead many riders to lean on the motor instead of shifting gears as you would on a regular bike.
If you do that with a mid drive bike you WILL be working harder than you have to as the motor won't make up as much.
What's your cadence? based on the gearing the rpms you are spinning on the pedals mostly determines your heart rate. Spinning fast in a higher gear keeps the load light and heart rate consistant. Mashing (pushing hard and slow rpm) works the muscles much harder, requiring more blood flow and thus greater heart rate swings.
If you don't know those things, there's a night and day difference to be had as you learn them.
If you know those things, you'll use them and come to like the mid drive biking experience much more.
If it's an off road bike like my Hai, it's geared VERY low and simply gearing (changing cassette or front ring) it up to be able to pedal at higher speeds is a great help.

All those things make it likely you can get your HR down where it needs to be for you.

You are right about the good in getting people out.
Just stop shorting them (and you?) in what you can really get out of it if you put into it. (to the best of our ability)

I don't want to sound like a downer, but I wish people would think about other people and not be so self-centered. "As YOU get stronger...", well some of us have health issues such as heart problems, MS, and others and some are simply seniors (by the way, this is the fastest growing segment of the population) and don't have the ability to work harder. This is the same attitude as "well if you need more help you should just get a moped". I get it, if people can't handle the effort needed to use a midmotor ebike they should just sit at home and rot instead of enjoying being outside with their friends and getting some exercise - just remember that a lot of non-ebike users consider people using any type of ebike including non-throttle midmotors to be lazy and cheats.

 

[Solom01]

Tell that to someone with ALS or congestive heart failure. Yes a bit of exercise is good but for some conditions having to forcefully pedal and not having the ability to use a throttle when you hit a certain level is a disaster. Yes, I was a rider and if I had the ability to use a real bike I wouldn't be using an ebike - it's kind of like using a wheelchair - not exactly something most people do unless they have no choice. And by the way, I'm not lumping people together, at least not for the minor types of conditions you're talking about. I think people should use what is possible for them, and that's going to vary by the person. Using gears correctly, and all the things you talk about also require a certain amount of muscle coordination which isn't something everyone has. Anyhow, I'll agree to disagree. But if everyone gets stronger by working harder why are you using an ebike to begin with? Wouldn't a non-motorized bike feel much more natural and give you a much better workout?

 

[fxr3]

look in the mirror!
Almost everyone can get stronger, regardless of ailments and age.
Exercise is one of the best things for MS and many many other diseases. Well known facts.
MOST of what we percieve as a results of aging are in fact results of DIS-USE as people stop doing things because they are getting old.
Research clearly shows that at ANY age (90 y/o's too) we get much much stronger with any amount of increased muscle work.
So lumping everyone that's aging (Im 58) and has problems (2 torns acls, 2 torn rotator cuffs, none fixed surgically, repeat stress fractures of the feet, ankle problems, etc) with you and your heart problem (I'm sorry) is not just grumpy and downer, it's plain wrong.
Secondly 'stronger" in biking terms doesn't just mean strength. there's strength of riding skill, knowledge, using the gears correctly, etc All MUCH more important on a mid drive with it's power than on a hub drive.
Were you a biker before the Ebike? Many were not and need to learn to use the gears.
Bigger, stronger hub motors lead many riders to lean on the motor instead of shifting gears as you would on a regular bike.
If you do that with a mid drive bike you WILL be working harder than you have to as the motor won't make up as much.
What's your cadence? based on the gearing the rpms you are spinning on the pedals mostly determines your heart rate. Spinning fast in a higher gear keeps the load light and heart rate consistant. Mashing (pushing hard and slow rpm) works the muscles much harder, requiring more blood flow and thus greater heart rate swings.
If you don't know those things, there's a night and day difference to be had as you learn them.
If you know those things, you'll use them and come to like the mid drive biking experience much more.
If it's an off road bike like my Hai, it's geared VERY low and simply gearing (changing cassette or front ring) it up to be able to pedal at higher speeds is a great help.

All those things make it likely you can get your HR down where it needs to be for you.

You are right about the good in getting people out.
Just stop shorting them (and you?) in what you can really get out of it if you put into it. (to the best of our ability)

In order to keep that mid drive in it’s sweet spot- plan on adding your right thumb to your list of injured body parts! To say you have to ride it more like a regular bike and you will build up enough extra strength and endurance to enjoy it is ridiculous. The power band on my brose is a lot like a 2stroke 125cc- it will go pretty good with constant shifting..... the hub drive is more like a 4 stroke: less shifting, more bike riding. I didn’t by a evoke to perfect my shifting to keep bike moving well, I just want bike to move well.
Btw, is more exercise helping your torn up shoulders? Yea, I didn’t think so.

 

[fxr3]

Oh yea “ lean on the motor more instead of learning to shift more”.
People buying ebikes want to go biking, not practice shifting.
Just keep exercising them shoulders- they’ll strengthen right up- heal themselves even.

 

[FooDoDaddy]

Thanks everyone! I have been working out strength training 2x per week with a personal trainer for the last year. I still have my 1995 IBOC Mongoose, Mountain Bike Magazine Bike of the year. I still ride it ($1500 new back then, no shocks at all). I am doing great with CHF. From stage 2 to stage 1, but wanted a mid drive for off road riding like I did 20 year ago. Shifting doesn't bother me, I even have a 2005 Christi AWD bike: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007W2FOA/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i00

Anyway the Brose just cuts out power at 18 mph, not 20 mph. I know 2 mph might not seem like much, but when your use to 20 on an older bike, and going slower on a new bike is not the best. Heck, I have my Honda 1800cc Valkyrie that will do 0-60 mph in 3.1 seconds for speed.

Anyway I found a solution on ebay, and ordered it. Coming from France, it's cut's the speed in 1/2, so effectively doubling it. It's not that I want to go 36 mph, but do want more assist to a higher speed. I will post the results of this mod: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists) when I get it, most likely not till November.

In the meantime I will continue to ride, at 16 mph, my bpm is at 129 with the brose and 119 with the hub motor. My 15 year old son in great shape has his bpm at the same level as mine with both bikes.

 

[Ed Busk]

Hi, Ed here, owner of Sleek eBikes in Tarrytown. I have a Bafang BBS02 running 1.3KW and access to all sorts of Bulls machinery plus loads of other stuff. I always recommend potential customers ride a Brose vs a Bosch back to back. Some people love one some love the other.

Some points to note: The Brose gives tremendous torque at very low RPM, much more than the Bosch CX Performance. The Bosch then kicks it's butt once you get up to speed. (Power output seems at 350 Watts for the Brose vs up to 540 for the Bosch - see other posts on this site.) The Suntour HESC blows them both away. Think of the Brose as a torquey diesel vs a revvy sports car. The Bulls can also go into safe mode - where it feels very slow.

Agree with the comments above that the Brose is much more like riding a conventional bike vs the Bosch which really feels motorized. Also if you slow down, change down, and keep a steady relaxed cadence the Brose will climb any hill with very little effort. Push hard on the Brose and it feels super flat. Kick back and roll along and it feels like the power goes up. Almost like heavy torque causes the motor to cut back output...exercise mode!

The Das Kit 500W on the Magnums should get an honorable mention too. Great system for the money.

The Bafang's efficiency is way less. At about 900W it feels the same as the Bosch at 540. Beyond that it's great for short bursts - but it empties the battery and gets very hot! Bosch quotes 92% efficiency, Brose high 80s. Bafang doesn't say but I'd guess 70. My Bafang motor's battery is noticeably dying at 2 years too...maybe how I set the parameters. Food for thought.

 

[bob armani]

Thanks everyone! I have been working out strength training 2x per week with a personal trainer for the last year. I still have my 1995 IBOC Mongoose, Mountain Bike Magazine Bike of the year. I still ride it ($1500 new back then, no shocks at all). I am doing great with CHF. From stage 2 to stage 1, but wanted a mid drive for off road riding like I did 20 year ago. Shifting doesn't bother me, I even have a 2005 Christi AWD bike: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007W2FOA/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i00

Anyway the Brose just cuts out power at 18 mph, not 20 mph. I know 2 mph might not seem like much, but when your use to 20 on an older bike, and going slower on a new bike is not the best. Heck, I have my Honda 1800cc Valkyrie that will do 0-60 mph in 3.1 seconds for speed.

Anyway I found a solution on ebay, and ordered it. Coming from France, it's cut's the speed in 1/2, so effectively doubling it. It's not that I want to go 36 mph, but do want more assist to a higher speed. I will post the results of this mod: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists) when I get it, most likely not till November.

In the meantime I will continue to ride, at 16 mph, my bpm is at 129 with the brose and 119 with the hub motor. My 15 year old son in great shape has his bpm at the same level as mine with both bikes.

FooDoDaddy-Do you think the speed dongle from France could somehow damage the internal parts of your Brose motor? I do believe that it can void the warranty if anyone finds out it was installed. BTW-I know how frustrating it can be when your ebike cuts out at 18mph. My EasyMotion has a 350 watt rear hub motor and it easily gets me up to 22mph in the lowest gear right out of the box. Must be tuned that way with all of the defaults set to high in all pedal assist modes. A very zippy motor indeed. On the other hand, my wife has an EM ebike with a 250 watt rear hub drive motor that cuts out at 16.5 mph and you notice the difference right away. I am very curious to see how the speed dongle works out. Good luck!

 

[trebor]

Yes, my Bulls is totally quiet, stealthy and beautiful. However, I would not buy one again.
Maybe I'd buy this. Less money and more performance. (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

That is an entirely different kind of thing. But yes, way more speed per dollar. But much more of an electric moped.

 

[trebor]

This is really a big disappointment to hear about these bikes. I was under the impression that the Brose 250w was at the leader of the pack with overall performance,

Oh no. Brose is the least power, but claimed to be the most natural feeling (least like a motorized bike).

 

[Megan Brown]

Getting the firmware update soon, I hoping that it will make it a little faster. The motor mapping is dreadful, on grades up to 10% its fine,,,,anything over 10%, the torque is done, the motor stops providing assist, this is evident on long climbs over 10%, you really have to work hard riding the Brose, if I turned down the Bosch and Yamaha, I would get the same run time with reduce power. Therefore, their claim that it runs longer is not really an advantage over others.

Before i tried some brose systems. And even seller accepted they aren't powerful but Brose will solve system with new software update. I was looking for a Bull e-bike. Funny thing is it was 2016 and i still hear same story.

 

[Ken M]

I think the industry over-prioritizes the European granny-power limit of 25oW. This essentially drives a significant % of the bike designs towards mid drives (not that they are not the best configuration for mtn bikes). The US power limit of 750W is still a bit lower than is really needed to enable an eBike to become a truly viable transportation product but it's much better. I have no clue why the big OEM don't have all motors produced to allow 750W nominal minimum (higher peak levels for a duration of a few minutes to complete an occasional hill) and just program the power level down in those EU countries that are scared of anyone going faster than 28kpm (may as well be walking).

 

[Siganberg]

My experience with my Bulls (Brose) is I always left behind with my buddy running on Giant (Yamaha) on a long pavement climb but equally matched them on the offroad climb on different stiff. They are usually on level 2 assist and I'm on level 4 but even with that setting I always have more battery left remaining after the session. Maybe because Brose drawing not many amps on highest level assist or I have 150watts more capacity on my battery compare to them (650 vs 500). I just always think that they are just stronger than me and more physically fit. Although they are older than me, they have long experience on regular mtb when they were young vs me that never really physically had the endurance to do regular mtb. But I start doing more and more eMTB and noticed that I start improving my endurance.

Either way, I'm satisfied with the level to assist from my Bulls. My main goal is to improve my health and enjoy trails. I also got the FS 3 27.5 on good deal price. $3000 out the door on my local ebikes store here.

I do have Class III ebike that I use for my daily commute and that one is very fast but it's not good on an offroad climb and it's not really allowed on trails. I need that power to be able to catch my train on time.

 

[FooDoDaddy]

I fixed my Brose with this kit: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Boitier-électronique-POLINI-bloc-CDI-BROSE-vélo-électrique-débridage-E-Bike-NEUF/262551965755?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

I know it's been awhile, but the first seller dragged me along for a month and then refunded my money. Anyway this fix makes my bike energized! I have gotten up to 28MPH per GPS, but can't hold it there to long. I can now keep up with my EVO 650B, no issues at all. After a 20 mile run at 20MPH, the Evo had 1 bar left, and my Bulls Evo FS 3 29 had 3 bars still, not even 1/2 way. So it might cut down on the distance some, but still better that the 350w Hub motor in my old bike. The little 250W motor does just fine.

I took some installation photos although it was really easy to put on if you are ok cutting a couple wires and crimping. You can see them here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/FgEKdUekOYyJpqPx2

Best is, you can use a magnet (included to) to enable/disable the feature. I didn't enable that (didn't trust the magnet wouldn't fall off), but it is an option. I just stuck the magnet inside the case for now.