Isn't a 28mph Bosch the drive we really want?

I think the way that hr727 was written up was pretty good in the way that it specified maximum power and then also expressed the maximum speed in terms of being solely under motor power. That encourages designs where human power is a significant component (unlike traditional mopeds with vestigial pedals), without falling into the trap of specifying a maximum operating speed. Remember, it's not hard to get a human powered bike over 30 on level ground and much more downhill. Recumbents, tandems, velomobiles, and fit riders on tribikes or road bikes all can do it easily. If you specify max speeds on ebikes though (without power qualifiers) you get weird situations where you could be operating them illegally even with the power system shut off completely. Look at this bill from Illinois, it starts with criteria based on HR727 (good), and then adds a goofy additional operating restriction of no more than 20mph on any street or road, making them slower to legally operate than regular bikes. I can get my Dash up above 20 with the power off even with the cogging fighting me. On the Haibikes I rode that had zero drag when not providing assistance, it was trivial.
 
Why 28mph and not 25 or 30mph? Is there a measureble calculated power value, like 1hp (746W) for a typical 175 man putting out 150W in an upright position, level ground, no wind and power assisted??

I'm not arguing, just asking why we have 28mph and not 25 or 30??

The MAryland Moped law use to be 30mph and under with a motor. They have different classes now based upon HP.

I think Rich Wolf summed it up well describing the added stresses at higher speeds, and so far, all comments seem to agree that 35mph+ is not a normal design speed for a heavy ebike.

I would guess the laws will likely move to the safe,conservative side with 3 classes.

Class I - Ebikes limited to 20mph, with standard bike components.
Class II- Ebikes 20-30mph, moped class, requiring liability, driver's license, but no plates. Maybe a title, front and back lights?
Class III - Ebikes 30+ mph classified with 50cc scooters. Eventually require the above and turn signals, and a plate too.

As of now, there are NO official, national, classifications, outside of the intitial law of 20mph, 750W and under being a bicycle.
 
32 is my magic number and the power to go close to it on most hills, I will pedal hard at that speed. I have insurance and a driver's license but want to be on trails (rails to trails style for me) away from cars. My beat Subaru can probably still do 90 but on home street the limit is 25. I am still allowed to drive there. I also find my almost 60 yr old body gets passed by enough other non motorized bikes on my 27mph Stromer, speed should not be the 1st item to regulate IMHO.

Lights should be required at dawn/dusk to go anywhere on anything! I can't see you and I am looking...bigger safety issue to me....including walking

I may have said most of this elsewhere
 
But I was blown away by the performance of Spitzing. For both me and Chandlee, it was our favorite at the Interbike show.
I have given my honest/critical feedback to M1 Sporttechnik's technical director about things like tire clearance, display, etc and they are going to change it. Will I purchase it? mmm..
Need to think on that. I would love to lease a Chevy Volt or leaf and extend my EV range to true 100+ miles. I have free charging at work :D[/QUOTE

Favorite?! Nope. ST2.
 
I like the Thron Impulse, from the specs, it's great. But I was blown away by the performance of Spitzing. For both me and Chandlee, it was our favorite at the Interbike show.
I have given my honest/critical feedback to M1 Sporttechnik's technical director about things like tire clearance, display, etc and they are going to change it. Will I purchase it? mmm..
Need to think on that. I would love to lease a Chevy Volt or leaf and extend my EV range to true 100+ miles. I have free charging at work :D

Actually, though it was fun, the Spitzing was a little too ostentatious. I know it's crazy, but I even found the ST2 to be the better climber. Lots of vibration and noise in the Spitzing. I liked the M1 Xion and Neon motors too. Those are fantastic.

Looking forward to trying the impulse II @Chris Nolte.

Also, what hell is this giant obsession with torque about? I live in a really hilly city and my ST1 platinum's 30 NM will crush any hill.

Remember, guys, these are supposed to retain some bicycle-like qualities!
 
Actually, though it was fun, the Spitzing was a little too ostentatious. I know it's crazy, but I even found the ST2 to be the better climber. Lots of vibration and noise in the Spitzing. I liked the M1 Xion and Neon motors too. Those are fantastic.

Looking forward to trying the impulse II @Chris Nolte.

Also, what hell is this giant obsession with torque about? I live in a really hilly city and my ST1 platinum's 30 NM will crush any hill.

Remember, guys, these are supposed to retain some bicycle-like qualities!

That said, I do love me some Bionx d-series.
 
Actually, though it was fun, the Spitzing was a little too ostentatious. I know it's crazy, but I even found the ST2 to be the better climber. Lots of vibration and noise in the Spitzing. I liked the M1 Xion and Neon motors too. Those are fantastic.

Looking forward to trying the impulse II @Chris Nolte.

Also, what hell is this giant obsession with torque about? I live in a really hilly city and my ST1 platinum's 30 NM will crush any hill.

Remember, guys, these are supposed to retain some bicycle-like qualities!
I totally agree!

If you ever find yourself in NY Chandlee you're welcome to visit and couch surf. :) We'll have the Thron Speed and the Focus Aventura Impulse Speed S10 next week.
 
Back when the legislation was being drafted that resulted in "low speed electric bicycles" regulation moving from the NHTSA to the CPSC under HR 727, the background section gave a view on the rationale:

Since low-speed electric bicycles are designed not to
exceed the maximum speed of a human-powered bicycle, and they
are typically used in the same manner as human-powered
bicycles, electric bicycles shouldbe regulated in the same
manner and under the same agency (the CPSC) as human-powered bicycles.


So, the kind of bikes the manufacturers seem to be settling on (20mph max under motor alone, with some models providing assist up to 28) are going to fit into that rationale. I'd even by fine if they had to be pedelec only, but I know that is not universal. If however you try to open the flood gates to 40 or 50mph bikes with token pedals I don't think that is going to fly.


I bought an ebike 6 weeks before a nasty bout with pneumonia. After getting released from rehab, I was using oxygen 24/7. I looked at the ebike all the time, and finally just took it out with my oxygen tank. The bike, an X3, is throttle only. That's the only way I could ride an ebike, really, and riding it was enormously therapeutic. I did pedal, but when I was used up, I could stop pedaling. I actually got better, got rid of the oxygen, and I'll credit the ebike for helping me a lot.

I don't think the rules should be renegotiated to eliminate the throttle. Even if someone doesn't pedal, I think it should still be a bike if it is under the speed limit. You have to cover a lot of ground, a lot of different people with a lot of different circumstances, in these laws.

I like the core ideas of the rationale a lot. I like the idea that it is a bike, but a bike with an assist. And it really does assist some people, maybe far more than you might think. Thanks for posting that, by the way. I will pass that along I'm sure.
 
No reply from Jim at Opti on PAS.
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Just have a good mechanic for that optibike. ;)
 

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No reply from Jim at Opti on PAS.
Ravi,

I did hear back a couple months ago from Jim Turner. He said they are working on a PAS system....no more details than that.

Their MBB controls advertised a derivative response to shifting. That is basically a feedforward path give a smallpower bump, and overcome a power lag caused when shifting up. I can see how that response could be tricky to integrate with a PAS system.
 
With the ridiculously small front sprocket on Bosch I don't think you'd be able to pedal anyway near up to 28 MPH.
There is actually a reduction gear in the drive unit. The speed drive commonly comes with a 20 tooth chain ring which is equal to a 50 tooth chain ring since the chainring rotates 2.5 for every chain revolution. This allows the motor to run at higher RPM's where it can be more efficient.
 
There is actually a reduction gear in the drive unit. The speed drive commonly comes with a 20 tooth chain ring which is equal to a 50 tooth chain ring since the chainring rotates 2.5 for every chain revolution. This allows the motor to run at higher RPM's where it can be more efficient.

Interesting, I did not know that.
 
It's a really smart design IMO. I think they did this due to some issues they found with the 1st gen system. It's interesting that most other mid drive companies are still not using a similar setup. Maybe Bosch has a patent. It certainly wouldn't surprise me.
 
[QUOTE=". Look at this bill from Illinois, it starts with criteria based on HR727 (good), and then adds a goofy additional operating restriction of no more than 20mph on any street or road, making them slower to legally operate than regular bikes..[/QUOTE]

Old post, but it's pretty useful as I'm in Illinois. I looked up the statutes and see my e-bike is classified as a low power electric bicycle, so it's not a motor vehicle and thus legal on bike paths. Not legal on sidewalks, and cannot be ridden over 20 mph. Also, I have to be over 16 years old. No speed restrictions otherwise.

Yes, I would like a Bosch drive, but I settled for a BBS02. It's in. No battery yet.
 
It's a really smart design IMO. I think they did this due to some issues they found with the 1st gen system. It's interesting that most other mid drive companies are still not using a similar setup. Maybe Bosch has a patent. It certainly wouldn't surprise me.
Chris,

Do you know if the motor drive rpm is stepped down to the 20T sprocket, or is it a direct drive for the Bosch?

If it is a direct drive to the axel, and the speed is 2.5x the peal speed, a typical pedal cadence of 80 rpm would say the motor spins at 2.5x = 200rpm. Just wondering about that side of the drive.

From the cyclist perspective, their power will see a small loss in transmission due to the "step up" pedal power to the sprocket's higher cadence.

I think it is correct to say the effective torque from the human input is reduced by 2.5x, but regained by the 50/20 sprocket ratio, while the effective torque from the motor is benefitted by the small sprocket and higher rpm.

Dan
 
Chris,

Do you know if the motor drive rpm is stepped down to the 20T sprocket, or is it a direct drive for the Bosch?

If it is a direct drive to the axel, and the speed is 2.5x the peal speed, a typical pedal cadence of 80 rpm would say the motor spins at 2.5x = 200rpm. Just wondering about that side of the drive.

From the cyclist perspective, their power will see a small loss in transmission due to the "step up" pedal power to the sprocket's higher cadence.

I think it is correct to say the effective torque from the human input is reduced by 2.5x, but regained by the 50/20 sprocket ratio, while the effective torque from the motor is benefitted by the small sprocket and higher rpm.

Dan
Dan,

I believe you are correct in your presumption. It definitely seems logical. I'm not sure what the actual rpm is, but I will keep it in mind and see what I can come up with when I get a chance.

Chris
 
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