If you buy a bike with a Bosch motor, who owns the motor?

[PedalUma]

You Must Do What We Say

Exactly, Their stance is authoritarian and paternalistic. As an adult I do not want to be treated like a child in that sort of relationship. Some people do what to be taken care of by the father figure of the 'Vaterland.' Actually, their stuff is made in China, just like iPhones. It is the same appeal of fascism. I run from that.

 

[Johnny]

I don’t disagree — the customer should have the option of keeping the motor. It is also an interesting topic.

Truthfully, that a couple of vendors advertise a Bosch motor at $850 doesn’t tell me much. I don’t see ”authorized Bosch distributor/service center” I have no idea if this is the cost when you buy through the (original) dealer, if out-of-warranty. What I do know is that if one works within Bosch’s “terms,” the motor that gets bolted on will run smoothly. I’m not sure what happens if I were to buy online. Why are the manufacturers responsible for flashing the motors they receive from Bosch? I know if I asked R&M to flash my online motor, it’s gonna be a Nein.

That Bosch *should* be able to manufacture at $450 or whatever is a non-starter. Many of us who are Bosch owners or “owners,” are in this camp for the extensive service coverage and the warranty extensions ,if deemed appropriate, and so on. Something has to pay for all that. Let me just say this. After pushing a heavy-ass R&M w/trailer for 6 miles; dropping it off at a *Trek* shop; and getting the situation resolved in days during the Xmas holiday (with the assistance of a proactive dealer) no less, I can at least accept that Bosch has a system that they adhere to fairly rigidly bc it works for them, but also for us.

My case was a warranty case, so I 100% understand resenting a mandatory trade-in otherwise. As you point out, one has the option of purchasing the online motor, then refurbishing the old motor yourself at the cost of a bearing kit. But I think Bosch knows that most ppl want the security of knowing that it’s smooth sailing with the motor swap, and they also know that the market for a motor refurbished by a private seller is very small. I‘m only recognizing that Bosch has the upper hand here, and this permits some soft bullying coupled to the German imperative …. You Must Do What We Say.

You have my utmost respect and when it comes to touring with Bosch mid drives you know the best.

You have brought some interesting points so let me elaborate.

The $450 figure was a guess for the manufacturing cost. You are correct, when warranty is introduced the price will definitely increase depending on the failure rate and how many units sold. However my point is $800-900 should easily make up for the two year warranty given the low failure rate.

In terms of online prices, they are very close the price that OP is charged. The invoice shows it. If there was a core requirement or exchange the invoice must have clearly stated that. That is what happens for any other purchase like car battery. So at this point Occam's razor says the full price of the motor is paid and since not stated there is no reason for me to believe that there is an exchange going on.

Bosch warranty for exchange is very good no doubt, they are one of the best if not the best. However it doesn't cover labor hence when you take your bike to a shop that you didn't buy the bike from you are charged for labor. And recently I am seeing some very high shop charges. That actually takes away value from the warranty. Btw, I have dropped the bosch motor and reinstalled it myself, all I can say is that $300 is quite steep for that job.

If we get back to OP's problem, it is not replaced under warranty. Op paid ~$900 for the motor ~$300 for installation and still without giving him a reason his old motor is taken away. That is a lot of money and on top OP doesn't get his motor back. This looks very bad for bikes that have expired warranties. And I hope Bosch threatening the lbs with revoking dealership is exaggeration because that is a horrible practice although I have heard similar stories from another lbs myself.

 

[Rexlion]

Perhaps Bosch is trying to keep their motors from being copied, or to protect some proprietary tech.

With a motor vehicle, I believe the shop is required by US law to return replaced parts if requested, because it proves they didn't jack you around and pretend to replace them. I don't know that these protections extend to ebikes, though. Bosch is European, I think, and Europeans might have even less legal protections in this regard, so Bosch might be accustomed to requiring the return and not getting any flak about it. Just a guess.

 

[dblhelix]

You have my utmost respect and when it comes to touring with Bosch mid drives you know the best.

You have brought some interesting points so let me elaborate.

The $450 figure was a guess for the manufacturing cost. You are correct, when warranty is introduced the price will definitely increase depending on the failure rate and how many units sold. However my point is $800-900 should easily make up for the two year warranty given the low failure rate.

In terms of online prices, they are very close the price that OP is charged. The invoice shows it. If there was a core requirement or exchange the invoice must have clearly stated that. That is what happens for any other purchase like car battery. So at this point Occam's razor says the full price of the motor is paid and since not stated there is no reason for me to believe that there is an exchange going on.

Bosch warranty for exchange is very good no doubt, they are one of the best if not the best. However it doesn't cover labor hence when you take your bike to a shop that you didn't buy the bike from you are charged for labor. And recently I am seeing some very high shop charges. That actually takes away value from the warranty. Btw, I have dropped the bosch motor and reinstalled it myself, all I can say is that $300 is quite steep for that job.

If we get back to OP's problem, it is not replaced under warranty. Op paid ~$900 for the motor ~$300 for installation and still without giving him a reason his old motor is taken away. That is a lot of money and on top OP doesn't get his motor back. This looks very bad for bikes that have expired warranties. And I hope Bosch threatening the lbs with revoking dealership is exaggeration because that is a horrible practice although I have heard similar stories from another lbs myself.

Thank you for the kind words. I think one issue here is the lack of “standard” pricing/transparency. There Is tremendous variability, probably a function of the relationship you have with the shop, as well as how the shop has structured their business practice. I’m pretty sure Bosch lets dealers do as they please in this regard. The $875 is probably an MSRP, but we dont know as the motor is not in the catalog of Bosch parts I see at dealer sites.

case in point: for firmware updates + battery stress testing, I’ve been cited “free” to $650. No joke.

I 100% agree that the OP’s invoice should have clearly stated terms and conditions. This is, again, a transparency issue. What I’m saying is that I understand why Bosch gets away with “yours is not to wonder why” attitude.

If I had to guess, Bosch doesn’t want a bunch of mod‘d motors out there giving them a bad name. It’s pretty clear that Bosch is separating themselves from battery fires, bikes that some consider motorcycles, speed cap removal, etc. This is just a guess, tho’

 

[tomjasz]

I'm impressed by Bosch and had I been blindsided like that I'd have likely been pissed. On the other hand, if I couldn't afford to maintain and replace a Bosch motor or battery, I'd never have owned a Bosch-powered bike. My experience with Bosch appliances was pay-to-play as well. IMO a Bosch eBike is best suited to high mileage and high-use riders. Weekend warriors may be disappointed when there's a low mileage issue after the warranty period.

 

[PedalUma]

If I had to guess, Bosch doesn’t want a bunch of mod‘d motors out there giving them a bad name. It’s pretty clear that Bosch is separating themselves from battery fires, bikes that some consider motorcycles, speed cap removal, etc. This is just a guess, tho’

That could be the cover story. The deeper truth is they want control. After a few years it will be like Win '95 and no longer supported. And the 'owner' will be high and dry. The open source stuff is better. I can replace mother boards if needed and because I OWN IT, I control the programing of MY BIKE, because IT IS MINE to command and do what ever I want with. No 'Mother may I' screw that 5hit.

 

[tomjasz]

because IT IS MINE to command and do what ever I want with. No 'Mother may I' screw that

Not unlike the battles with Apple.

5hit

5hit, let me guess, typing on an iPad?

 

[Roamers]

Perhaps Bosch is trying to keep their motors from being copied, or to protect some proprietary tech.

Bosch is smarter than that. Every mfg knows that anyone that was to learn about their technology can just buy one and tear it apart.

 

[m@Robertson]

Since I'm no longer the first one to bring it up, I'll join in and say this kind of behavior - and the future risks it exposes - is exactly the reason I will not touch a proprietary platform where the manufacturer is not selling me the asset, they are licensing it to me to use so long as I follow their terms and conditions, which they are free to change as they please. I know of folks with gen1 Shimano motors who now are faced with junking $8000 bikes they use in their business thanks to the fact the manufacturer no longer supports the motor and nothing else fits the proprietary motor mount. And even if it did, none of the electronics or even the battery would work with a replacement not given the papal blessing from the controlling manufacturer.

I rely on my bikes for daily use (I have cars, just try not to use them) and I have spares socked away just in case. And if I didn't, I could just buy something new and different.

Thats not for everyone and I recognize that. But if you don't want to do anything besides write a check and go ride... then this is the model you chose to follow, and this is what you pay for that convenience (that and the size of the check you wrote).

 

[tomjasz]

I think the Ms here will buy a proprietary eBike. She can afford it and I’m free from maintaining her eBike. 50 years with the same girl all good but like her cage me being out of the loop and responsibility is liberating. If you get my drift. I just have to resist saying i told you so if things go south. Almost true…

 

[opimax]

I was a windows computer tech since the 80s, retired 3 years ago, don’t own a Microsoft product , can’t do much with my wife’s or my iPad. Made that choice on purpose, saves me lots of headaches and disappointments .

I am sure I’d could work on bikes just don’t want to, same thing. I still want my old parts back or at least determine what I want to do with them. If they have a value as a core it should be treated as an old car battery, tell me the value when I authorize the work so I can make up my mind

 

[m@Robertson]

I still want my old parts back or at least determine what I want to do with them. If they have a value as a core it should be treated as an old car battery

But the manufacturer doesn't agree. And they make the rules (and this one example is far from the only one illustrating their controlling attitude).

If you are determined to try to make the major multinational corporation change its practices, the effort you will expend and the buzz you will harsh is going to more than offset the restful zen state you achieved just paying for the bike and riding it. Smile and go ride.

 

[opimax]

I would think somewhere it must be stated they are taking my motor as part of the deal or inform me this will happen when purchased. It is my motor when purchased. What if I want to just buy a motor and I don’t have a core?

 

[dblhelix]

That could be the cover story. The deeper truth is they want control. After a few years it will be like Win '95 and no longer supported. And the 'owner' will be high and dry. The open source stuff is better. I can replace mother boards if needed and because I OWN IT, I control the programing of MY BIKE, because IT IS MINE to command and do what ever I want with. No 'Mother may I' screw that 5hit.

The rapid transition from “information wants to be free” to “trading some freedom for security” mindset shocked me.

It’s also the miniaturization of components. 1998-2000, while I was in college, I’d go bid on crates of UNIX workstations at NASA auctions. It was for a project in parallel computing which went well … until the electric bill became unaffordable — those things put out all kinds of heat. But I had a large supply of repair parts, easy to swap and could handle basic soldering on circuit boards.

Everybody was working on porting Linux to proprietary platforms. It was a feeling of victory over the companies that sold these workstations w/ a proprietary OS for $10k+ just a few years earlier.

 

[m@Robertson]

What if I want to just buy a motor and I don’t have a core?

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to hear Bosch forbids that. If you look at the internet for 'bosch ebike motor for sale' you see a lot of them... but they are mostly used, with some others from foreign sellers no doubt locked down to EU output. Will your Bosch dealer re-flash that motor for you or will they tell you they can't touch it?

It looks as if they do not grant you a right-to-repair. Which means you have a form of licensed-use grant and not an outright purchase since the manufacturer retains the IP of your motor's internals, as well as its mechanicals since they also control repair.

This has all been done before with automobiles. Its just moving into the bicycle realm.

 

[PedalUma]

Farmers are trying to pass the Agriculture Right to Repair Act. The are up against a powerful lobby. Very powerful. They just want to be able to work on their own tractor. For the little guy it is so hard, DNA is even patented. If someone else's pollen blows on your corn, you can be sued. It is very anti-democratic. In the bargain, it is not worth dealing with those greedy devils.

 

[Roamers]

Farmers are trying to pass the Agriculture Right to Repair Act. The are up against a powerful lobby.

Realistically, the electronic systems are beyond what the good old boys can work on; there are safety aspects of the electronic systems that it really is better for bubba to stay away from. I'm pretty sure the mechanical aspects are still doable by bubba.

 

[AHicks]

Realistically, the electronic systems are beyond what the good old boys can work on; there are safety aspects of the electronic systems that it really is better for bubba to stay away from. I'm pretty sure the mechanical aspects are still doable by bubba.

I say Buuba should be able to make the call, not have it made for him....

If there is special equipment necessary to do a repair on Buuba's million dollar tractor, Buuba should have the option to buy that equipment if he chooses. My understanding is that there are million dollar tractors sitting out in the fields right now...... caught in a pissing match between John Deere and Buuba's lawyers.....

John Deere has made this REALLY ugly. Right to repair act is a much bigger than most (want to) know about...

 

[Roamers]

https://www.agweb.com/news/policy/politics/aem-john-deere-respond-bidens-planned-executive-order-over-right-repair

Deere's statement on the subject. Doesn't seem unreasonable. I don't know if their stance has changed recently.

 

[Roamers]

I say Buuba should be able to make the call, not have it made for him....

If there is special equipment necessary to do a repair on Buuba's million dollar tractor, Buuba should have the option to buy that equipment if he chooses. My understanding is that there are million dollar tractors sitting out in the fields right now...... caught in a pissing match between John Deere and Buuba's lawyers.....

John Deere has made this REALLY ugly. Right to repair act is a much bigger than most (want to) know about...

Should Bubba be able to sue a company if he has made the decision to "fix/modify it" and something bad happens?