If you buy a bike with a Bosch motor, who owns the motor?

[PedalUma]

Those farm boys should not be underestimated. Many were trained in the military with things such as electronics and hydraulics. They have been repairing their entire lives and that goes back generations. They are risk takers and are good at math such as commodity futures. I heard about a city slicker who picked a fight with a kid who had been tossing hay bales into the loft all Summer. He underestimated. Those look gym muscles but they aren't. They may not talk quickly but that is not because they are slow. They are measured not manic.

 

[Roamers]

They are risk takers

That is not a good thing when it comes to safety; and when things go bad, the attorneys come out.

 

[Roamers]

This is going down a path that it shouldn't be.

In no way am I saying farmers are anything but hard working and skilled in many areas. My objection to unrestricted "right to repair" is what can happen if software modification is allowed.

Re: Bosch moters, I agree that if there was nothing documented on motor return as condition of new motor, the old motor should belong to the guy that paid for the new motor. If Bosch wants the motors back, they should increase the price of the new motor and add a core charge to bring the price back down.

 

[Johnny]

I am not buying the "you can't afford Bosch" argument. What is it that you afford? Similar power to mainstream mid drives, similar pedal feel, noisier then some.

At this point Bosch's practice seems looks awfully familiar. Give a good warranty but after the warranty make it as hard and expensive as possible to repair. If the user wants to repair they make money on overpriced components (calling this supporting for ten years), otherwise they force the buyer to simply buy a new product from them. As long as their image of "they know the best" is in the customers' heads they are golden. This is what Apple brought to this era and companies are imitating it.

Btw REI is selling CTY e2.1 for $1800 (regular price) which has a Shimano mid drive and 420wh battery on one hand Bosch asking for the old motor after the rider pays $1300 for a new motor+installation on the other.

 

[AHicks]

Should Bubba be able to sue a company if he has made the decision to "fix/modify it" and something bad happens?

Should you be allowed to sue your bike manf. if you decide to work on it and screw it up? In what universe would that make sense?

 

[PedalUma]

I would like @JedidiahStolzfus to weigh in here after reading page 5 or 4 and 5 with the opening paragraph (OP). I think he is qualified to contribute to the conversation with a fresh take. By the way, he totaled a Suburban a few days ago when he hit a black house running into his headlights. He could have died. It was a two-ton horse. Jet black. I can repair, or replace everything or update on a good bike for decades. And can buy three torque sensing motors for about $1,200 including tax and shipping. I can even have one shipped to anywhere in the US within 4-days at about the same rate. With the right to repair. Even with a throttle if desired that Bosh does not offer. Oh, by risk taking I mean they have acceptance and responsibility with measured skin in the game.

 

[gromike]

What torque sensing motors are you talking about, PedalUma?

 

[Roamers]

Should you be allowed to sue your bike manf. if you decide to work on it and screw it up? In what universe would that make sense?

For many manufacturers "Something bad happens" after an owner modifies something is a common cause of ending up in court. Screwing something up on your bike is different than modifying the a farm tractor resulting in killing a bystander.

No it doesn’t make sense; but it is reality.

 

[tomjasz]

Corporate farms tied into unsustainable mega machines with horrible chemical inputs and more s*it food at crazy prices. One dollar of every two in food price increases are increased profits. WTF are we thinking. It’s good to be old and moving on, but I feel for the “yoots”.

 

[PedalUma]

I can get anyone a TSDZ2 V5 B for under $400 bucks with full support.

what torque sensing motors are you talking about, PedalUma?

I have several reviews on Google Maps. Search: Petaluma, Bike Conversion. No BS. Personal support is everything. This pic is an electric bike. It is open source and lives on a big San Francisco hill. This is what superior electric bikes look like. Good ones are not clunky, or proprietary. Yes, this is an electric bike. That is what the good stuff looks like. Feels amazing, intuitive. The battery is reminiscent of a bottle. Zoom to see the details. Good bikes are clean. junky bikes are clunky. The verified reviews tell all.

 

[Rexlion]

Bosch is smarter than that. Every mfg knows that anyone that was to learn about their technology can just buy one and tear it apart.

One would think they should be 'smarter than that.' But with the pointy-haired bosses running many companies today, one never knows.

 

[Rexlion]

https://www.agweb.com/news/policy/politics/aem-john-deere-respond-bidens-planned-executive-order-over-right-repair

Deere's statement on the subject. Doesn't seem unreasonable. I don't know if their stance has changed recently.

I'm not so sure JD is being honest with that statement. My farm relatives say they have no desire to change the software, they just want to be able to buy the diagnostic tool, hook it up, read fault codes and learn from the codes what needs fixing. With that knowledge, they usually can buy the parts and get it going quickly. Right now they have to pay huge bucks (hourly plus mileage) to the dealer, plus lose valuable days waiting, for them to send a tech.

 

[m@Robertson]

I'm not so sure JD is being honest with that statement. My farm relatives say they have no desire to change the software, they just want to be able to buy the diagnostic tool, hook it up, read fault codes and learn from the codes what needs fixing. With that knowledge, they usually can buy the parts and get it going quickly. Right now they have to pay huge bucks (hourly plus mileage) to the dealer, plus lose valuable days waiting, for them to send a tech.

This is EXACTLY the same issue that auto owners have with the same scheme. The manufacturer taking their fault code reader proprietary among other things is meant to force consumers into a dealership which is meant to protect their down-chain independent dealerships and let them set prices. Never mind the DIY home auto mechanics. This is primarily meant to shut down independent auto shops which anyone who owns a car knows cost a lot less to go to than the dealership, and are often more trustworthy.

Like I said, Bosch is just pushing the same model to the bicycle world. Imagine a local bicycle shop who can buy a diagnostic tool on the open market that diagnoses an issue and lets the shop install a replacement part. That part could be manufactured by a 3rd party and be of the same or better quality. Such has been true of auto parts for decades. Bosch and their ilk want to ensure that doesn't happen for as long as possible, if ever.

 

[Roamers]

I'm not so sure JD is being honest with that statement. My farm relatives say they have no desire to change the software, they just want to be able to buy the diagnostic tool, hook it up, read fault codes and learn from the codes what needs fixing. With that knowledge, they usually can buy the parts and get it going quickly. Right now they have to pay huge bucks (hourly plus mileage) to the dealer, plus lose valuable days waiting, for them to send a tech.

Any idea how much they'd be willing to pay for access? What is the benefit to the manufacturer to spend resources developing a code reader for DIYers.

Dealers spend big bucks on access and tech training. This isn't like a mandated OBDII on your motor vehicle. They've probably noticed the tech hooks up a computer that is tied into the mfg technical center; not a lot of diagnostics goes on without that connection.

On a vehicle forum I'm on, there is widely posted access to software (blackmarket) that allows, for very little money, access into systems that dealer techs can't access without corporate blessing.

 

[CodyDog]

A good lesson learned.....always ask about the details of a repair.

 

[fooferdoggie]

I never asked I was just happy to have a new motor several months out of warranty for only 30.00 service fee.