If you buy a bike with a Bosch motor, who owns the motor?

[retiredNH]

Bosch motors are weatherproof, not waterproof. That's a big difference. In fact, on mine, a trek, the bottom of the motor housing is open, presumably for cooling, but it would clearly allow the motor to get soaked if I went into water. I suspect your bike is the same, and riding through puddles too deep caused your motor failure. If so, not surprised they wouldn't replace it under an extended warranty or for goodwill.

 

[fooferdoggie]

Bosch motors are weatherproof, not waterproof. That's a big difference. In fact, on mine, a trek, the bottom of the motor housing is open, presumably for cooling, but it would clearly allow the motor to get soaked if I went into water. I suspect your bike is the same, and riding through puddles too deep caused your motor failure. If so, not surprised they wouldn't replace it under an extended warranty or for goodwill.

its the bearings that are the weak link. bosch has a replacement shield and grease for the Gen 2 motors but only on the drive side. mine rusted out on the left side.

 

[rich c]

I unfortunately checked in on my phone, and saw the same clowns still trolling me. So here I am on the desktop where they are all ignored. With my failed Bafang gear motor I sent it back to Sondors and they redid the soldering on cold joints. Got it back and it lasted for 6 miles. I am not confident replacing hall sensors, hence it was scrap to me. Just backing up my reasoning why I don't care who owns my Bosch motors because in my opinion, they are the best. And you can call BS all you want about my inputs here, because I can't read your personal attacks.

 

[PedalUma]

To address OP, no, with this proprietary stuff you do not own it. If someone else commands 'your' dog, do you own it? Nope, they do. There is no option for you to change the firmware, only they can do that. And there is no Right to Repair.

 

[dblhelix]

To address OP, no, with this proprietary stuff you do not own it. If someone else commands 'your' dog, do you own it? Nope, they do. There is no option for you to change the firmware, only they can do that. And there is no Right to Repair.

The key word here is proprietary. I seem to recall being told by someone who would know that this is why Bosch demands return of the inoperative motor. Grain of salt bc I can’t remember who told me …

 

[tomjasz]

Bafang gear motor

So the truth is you have NO BBSxx series mid-drive motors. You bought a crap Sondors "Bafang gear motor I sent it back to Sondors" and now mid-drives by the company association suck? Too funny! We'd still like to see "the pile"?

I can't read your personal attacks.

But everyone can read your bulls pizzle...

 

[pmcdonald]

I'm with the OP here. This isn't a great state of affairs. It would be nice to have the option of keeping the motor.

There's a growing cottage industry of third party motor repairers, such as Performance Line Bearings in the UK, that offer servicing, repair and refurb at pretty reasonable prices. At a minimum they could offer a second opinion on the motor conditions.

 

[PedalUma]

At the very least it is your paper weight. Or coffee table conversation piece. You paid for it even if you are not allowed to command it. It is true that there are people who will press in new bearings.

 

[DanInStPete]

To address OP, no, with this proprietary stuff you do not own it. If someone else commands 'your' dog, do you own it? Nope, they do. There is no option for you to change the firmware, only they can do that. And there is no Right to Repair.

I disagree that I don't own it. I own it because I purchased it. Just as I own the motor in my car, and in past motorcycles, and in anything else I've ever had with a motor. An ebike motor isn't licensed to me, it is not leased. It was purchased. If I want to take the motor out of my bike and light it on fire, I can do so.

Pets are also owned, and you can go to jail for stealing one.

 

[Tars Tarkas]

I disagree that I don't own it. I own it because I purchased it. Just as I own the motor in my car, and in past motorcycles, and in anything else I've ever had with a motor. An ebike motor isn't licensed to me, it is not leased. It was purchased. If I want to take the motor out of my bike and light it on fire, I can do so.

I don't know the legal answer to this but it still sounds like bad communications on the part of your LBS. They should have let you know up front that the repair required returning the motor to Bosch (if that's the case).

You haven't insisted that they give you the motor back, I don't think, and apparently you haven't asked for any documentation about the alleged return policy, so I'm not sure why you're carrying on so adamantly. If you do hear the truth here how will you know it?

IF the motor is yours, do you want to light it on fire? I get your point, but I don't understand why you're fighting so hard for what is, for almost all practical purposes, a piece of junk.

TT

 

[DanInStPete]

I'm not sure why you're carrying on so adamantly.

I'm not carrying on. In fact I had pretty much dropped the issue until I realized yesterday that there were a lot of replies since I had looked at the thread. I posted a reply to be polite to people who had taken their time to give their thoughts.

If someone wants to make a point that I don't own my bike motor I'm going to respond. That's what a forum is for.

 

[Tars Tarkas]

I'm not carrying on.

Um, okay....

TT

 

[Johnny]

I'm not carrying on. In fact I had pretty much dropped the issue until I realized yesterday that there were a lot of replies since I had looked at the thread. I posted a reply to be polite to people who had taken their time to give their thoughts.

If someone wants to make a point that I don't own my bike motor I'm going to respond. That's what a forum is for.

Your complaint is completely valid and you have every right to seek an answer. I wish you didn't let them return the motor though.

I don't believe that being "proprietary" means the company can ask an item which is already paid off back for nothing. Once again if it was an exchange or warranty repair that would have been understandable but here it has no explanation.

You paid full price hence you own the motor and it not others' business what you want to do with the broken one...

 

[Tars Tarkas]

I agree with absolutely everything you said. It's the principle of the thing. Where I have a problem is why make this argument over a piece of junk? Aside from the ownership issue, what is the fair market value of a dead motor?

TT

 

[AHicks]

I agree with absolutely everything you said. It's the principle of the thing. Where I have a problem is why make this argument over a piece of junk? Aside from the ownership issue, what is the fair market value of a dead motor?

TT

In the hands of a skilled tech, the value of that core could be substantial! We have no idea why it failed, only that it wouldn't go any further. That could be something as simple as a failed bearing or a broken solder joint for instance.

To illustrate maybe, I buy "dead" Honda outboards in the 40-90 hp range as a hobby/source of mad money. There is little doubt some of these are more "dead" than others for sure! What I'd like to share without going into a lot of boring detail, is that once diagnosed and repaired these dead motors can easily be worth several times what they were purchased for. A "niche" hobby for sure, but not much different than repairing dead Bosch cores....

 

[TrevorB]

I recently had to replace my Bosch Performance Line CX at 1,400 miles. Supposedly, I got it too wet. Fine, it's out of warranty. It was around $875 for the motor, $1244 installed, including tax. I went to pick up the bike, took it for a quick test ride, and then went to pay. As I was paying I asked "do you have my old motor?" The bike shop informed me that it was sitting right there in a box, that they had to send it back to Bosch, and that they were waiting for a shipping label.

Wait. What??? That's my motor, from my bike. Bosch didn't warranty it. I bought a new one. So now I own two motors, right? One old expensive broken one, one new expensive working one.

The bike shop told me, that Bosch told them, that if they didn't send MY motor back to them, they would lose their dealership (or whatever the classification is).

I gotta tell ya that this pissed me off. So, who owns the motor?

Welcome to Bosch bike ownership. I went through same experience, shop was also surprised when Bosch threatened them with loss of dealership if motor wasn't returned. Shop said Shimano on the other hand don't want old motors back, but they've also replace a lot more so read into that what you may. Cost me NZD1200 (USD900) for replacement including labour, that was 4 years ago. Labour cost does sound very high as its only hour labour to swapout plus time dealing with Bosch and motor return.

On plus side Bosch were very prompt, shipped replacement overnite so I was back on the road in 3days. Shop was amazing, I didn't buy bike from them and they lent me better eMTB for weekend at no cost.

Tried to get 20mph motor as its legal in NZ but anal Bosch only do like for like replacements so no upgrading from 15mph version. Nothing dongle didn't fix.

 

[dblhelix]

Your complaint is completely valid and you have every right to seek an answer. I wish you didn't let them return the motor though.

I don't believe that being "proprietary" means the company can ask an item which is already paid off back for nothing. Once again if it was an exchange or warranty repair that would have been understandable but here it has no explanation.

You paid full price hence you own the motor and it not others' business what you want to do with the broken one...

I suspect one aspect of this is that the price at which you purchase a new motor is based on return of the “core” to rebuild it, similar to car battery purchase.

i think most Bosch owners here would want Bosch USA to have their motor in stock, and just for that reason would not put up a fuss about turning in the old motor to keep the supply going.

OTOH, the “must return” part does grate. We do have limited right to repair by purchasing a bearing kit from the UK supplier. At one time on this site, a Bosch bearing kit was announced via a Bosch YouTube. Never heard anything about its availability again.

It reminds me of “trade some freedom for security” arguments post-9/1. Clearly, dealers and most customers are fine with this process. But I think the OP’s original complaint is perfectly valid. I’m tired of leasing “devices” like my iPad, etc but everyone I know trades in their iPhone to get a discount on a new one. I don’t know a single person who wants to keep their old iPhone bc they own it. That the holdouts have few choices is bc most People don’t care (just complain a little bit at time of new purchase.)

edit: apparently the Bosch Service Kit does exist.

 

[Johnny]

I suspect one aspect of this is that the price at which you purchase a new motor is based on return of the “core” to rebuild it, similar to car battery purchase.

i think most Bosch owners here would want Bosch USA to have their motor in stock, and just for that reason would not put up a fuss about turning in the old motor to keep the supply going.

OTOH, the “must return” part does grate. We do have limited right to repair by purchasing a bearing kit from the UK supplier. At one time on this site, a Bosch bearing kit was announced via a Bosch YouTube. Never heard anything about its availability again.

It reminds me of “trade some freedom for security” arguments post-9/1. Clearly, dealers and most customers are fine with this process. But I think the OP’s original complaint is perfectly valid. I’m tired of leasing “devices” like my iPad, etc but everyone I know trades in their iPhone to get a discount on a new one. I don’t know a single person who wants to keep their old iPhone bc they own it. That the holdouts have few choices is bc most People don’t care (just complain a little bit at time of new purchase.)

edit: apparently the Bosch Service Kit does exist.

I understand your point but I dont think it is the case. First of all given the prices of the parts it is highly unlikely that this motor costs more then $850 to manufacture(I would be surprised if the manufacturing cost is more than half of that (~450), also you can purchase them without returning a broken motor online anyways).
As for car battery analogy, as you know wen you are buying a new battery you are clearly given the option of returning a core. If do so you don't pay core charge otherwise it is added. Everything is transparent.

Likewise for iphones you are given the option of leasing it or purchasing it completely(unlocked) and again the two options are explicitly stated. For the bikes we simply pay the full price and own them completely.

I highly disagree that a broken bosch mid drive is scrap . These are well made motors and most of the time changing bearings/internal gears or controller circuit can easily make them as good as new again. Replacing or even upgrading these parts should not be more than several hundred dollars.

So here are two reasons why someone would want these broken motors back.
1. Refurbishing and reselling them ?
2. Preventing the supply of broken motors on the market hence people don't try to fix/upgrade and reuse them?

None of these are for customers' benefit...

 

[rob feature]

If they didn't make it clear that they wanted to keep the old one before you agreed to the swap, then that's on them. They need to give that back or make it right some other way. They already charged you 5 hours of labor for a job that should take about an hour - sheez.

 

[dblhelix]

I understand your point but I dont think it is the case. First of all given the prices of the parts it is highly unlikely that this motor costs more then $850 to manufacture(I would be surprised if the manufacturing cost is more than half of that (~450), also you can purchase them without returning a broken motor online anyways).
As for car battery analogy, as you know wen you are buying a new battery you are clearly given the option of returning a core. If do so you don't pay core charge otherwise it is added. Everything is transparent.

Likewise for iphones you are given the option of leasing it or purchasing it completely(unlocked) and again the two options are explicitly stated. For the bikes we simply pay the full price and own them completely.

I highly disagree that a broken bosch mid drive is scrap . These are well made motors and most of the time changing bearings/internal gears or controller circuit can easily make them as good as new again. Replacing or even upgrading these parts should not be more than several hundred dollars.

So here are two reasons why someone would want these broken motors back.
1. Refurbishing and reselling them ?
2. Preventing the supply of broken motors on the market hence people don't try to fix/upgrade and reuse them?

None of these are for customers' benefit...

I don’t disagree — the customer should have the option of keeping the motor. It is also an interesting topic.

Truthfully, that a couple of vendors advertise a Bosch motor at $850 doesn’t tell me much. I don’t see ”authorized Bosch distributor/service center” I have no idea if this is the cost when you buy through the (original) dealer, if out-of-warranty. What I do know is that if one works within Bosch’s “terms,” the motor that gets bolted on will run smoothly. I’m not sure what happens if I were to buy online. Why are the manufacturers responsible for flashing the motors they receive from Bosch? I know if I asked R&M to flash my online motor, it’s gonna be a Nein.

That Bosch *should* be able to manufacture at $450 or whatever is a non-starter. Many of us who are Bosch owners or “owners,” are in this camp for the extensive service coverage and the warranty extensions ,if deemed appropriate, and so on. Something has to pay for all that. Let me just say this. After pushing a heavy-ass R&M w/trailer for 6 miles; dropping it off at a *Trek* shop; and getting the situation resolved in days during the Xmas holiday (with the assistance of a proactive dealer) no less, I can at least accept that Bosch has a system that they adhere to fairly rigidly bc it works for them, but also for us.

My case was a warranty case, so I 100% understand resenting a mandatory trade-in otherwise. As you point out, one has the option of purchasing the online motor, then refurbishing the old motor yourself at the cost of a bearing kit. But I think Bosch knows that most ppl want the security of knowing that it’s smooth sailing with the motor swap, and they also know that the market for a motor refurbished by a private seller is very small. I‘m only recognizing that Bosch has the upper hand here, and this permits some soft bullying coupled to the German imperative …. You Must Do What We Say.