Full suspension with Belt drive - why ?

[Feliz]

I think it is way more comfortable and do think it rides/handles better for the dirt roads etc I ride on

For me a rack is definitely needed, fenders I can live without but only because I don’t ride in the rain and it is really dry here most of the time

Meant to add this to my thread about my bike but the sks fenders fit too tight to the tires for the off road stuff I do
Rocks get stuck in the tires and roll into the fender quite a bit and make a lot of noise, they fall out quickly but at some point I might put more of a simple, shorter mtn bike fender on mine

I agree on the rack I just prefer it over a back pack when mountain biking although I never used a rack when competing for obvious reasons. I've never seen fenders on a serious mountain bike. A rack and fenders are a must for me on the street.

 

[pennybags]

I can see the functional reason why they are doing it this way, which is to keep the fixed take up pulley as close to the suspension pivot point as possible, but I would have thought that 2x spring loaded take up pulleys on a pivoting carrier mounted mid-way under the chainstay would give the belt a more obtuse angle, whilst still allowing sufficient “contact wrap“ of the belt around the bottom of the chainring

Yeah. I agree. (If I’mreading this right).

The chain stay is where the tensioner should be. Looks like that should address the design concerns for Gates at least.

 

[coldriderwi]

My initial interest in a full suspension belt drive bike stemmed from the desire to have one bike for anything. For me that was commuting and trails. I’m a bit of a minimalist so in looking for my first ebike over the last several months I was hoping to find an ebike that was great at both so that I didn’t need/want multiple bikes.

I’ve come to the conclusion that it isn’t really possible to achieve greatness for both commuting and trail riding in one package. There were always compromises, at least with by budget which I thought topped out at 5k.

So I’ve decided to go for greatness in individual packages and stretched my budget to get the new super bike as a commuter and car replacement. The only compromise there is I can’t have it now! But it is very exciting to see it develop and I know will be worth the wait!

With that change in strategy I am much less interested in a full suspension belt drive ebike. That said if you ever did develop one I would definitely consider upgrading the frame and swapping out the components via your commuter companion program

 

[smorgasbord]

One aspect that the Bafang's don't have is true programmability for different uses. Even Bosch forces you into choosing "CX" or "HS" (I might have the nomenclature wrong) for off-road versus on-road, but at least the Bosch motors have modes that let you choose what you need indirectly.

With the Bafang setup, even sticking to roads I'm always changing my PAS level depending on the hills. A level that gets me up the hills is too powerful for the flats - I won't get the workout I want (and might even run out of battery too soon). From what I hear, with Bosch you choose "Eco" or "Tour" or "Turbo" and then can mostly just leave it there as the motor scales up with torque you apply.

There's been some bashing of Bafang's torque sensor here, and while that may indeed be justified, I think the larger problem is the lack of programmability of the torque map per PAS level. Looking at the Bafang torque programming tab:

You can see that all the settings are independent of PAS level. And, no-one who's talking seems to know what the "Spd0, Spd20, etc." really mean. Is that crank speed or wheel speed? What are the ranges within each? Why is the default mapping so odd - requiring less torque with faster speeds? What the heck is "Delta Voltage" and why are the default settings just at two levels across torque applied instead of ramping through the ranges?

At any rate, even assuming we could figure out how the settings on this page should vary for on-road versus off-road, we have no way to easily switch while riding. Which is really unfortunate. I would think that could be a huge win for Bafang to not require different on-road vs off-road motors.

 

[Alaskan]

With the Bosch Nyon the owner can set up and choose custom assist modes in addition to the default modes of Eco, Tour, Sport & Turbo. I cannot find info on custom modes available through the Kiosk display. The custom ride mode module is a $3.99 add on bit of software available for Nyon. Bosch will be launching an updated Nyon display scheduled for later this summer. Rumor has it that it will be available and supported in North America.

Here are my set of custom modes, I chose a higher assist initially to help getting up to speed and then drop down to conserve electrons.

 

[Ebiker33]

They figured it out, so what I am hearing is that the Kinetic suspension seat post looks after the comfort, but it doesn't cover the safety aspect, if a hard tail wheel leaves the road and your are trying to use your rear brake in that second you don't have it, so you could be just front braking, not as safe.

If Watt Wagons can develop a titanium framed full suspension bike with Gates/Rohloff/ upgraded Bafang Ultra and fenders with rack they will have the achieved what no other company has done, this would be the true super Ebike....and one that ticks every box for 90% of riders out there with the exception of price, but then again it would be competing with R & M and they are over 10K anyways.

My current bike doesn't have a rear suspension, I have decided my next one will, more for safety than comfort, my trails are mostly hard packed but they do have bumps and rocks and sometimes when cars pass I go slightly off the road, and it gets super bumpy on the shoulder off the concrete. My current bike can handle it, but rear suspension will make it safer.

 

[pushkar]

If Watt Wagons can develop a titanium framed full suspension bike with Gates/Rohloff/ upgraded Bafang Ultra and fenders with rack they will have the achieved what no other company has done, this would be the true super Ebike....and one that ticks every box for 90% of riders out there with the exception of price, but then again it would be competing with R & M and they are over 10K anyways

Does it have to be titanium ?

 

[pushkar]

Here are my set of custom modes, I chose a higher assist initially to help getting up to speed and then drop down to conserve electrons.

At any rate, even assuming we could figure out how the settings on this page should vary for on-road versus off-road, we have no way to easily switch while riding. Which is really unfortunate. I would think that could be a huge win for Bafang to not require different on-road vs off-road motors.

I need a little education please. What is the key difference between On-road and off-road ? I want to better understand the need for having profiles.

 

[byunbee]

I need a little education please. What is the key difference between On-road and off-road ? I want to better understand the need for having profiles.

I think on-road is paved roads and off-road is trails. I'm not sure what is being asked for is really practical since riding off-road is more than just about suspension.

 

[byunbee]

Maybe what they are asking for is a Travelanche with a Rohloff and Gates Carbon Drive. That would be a rather expensive bike and most people would likely buy a R&M for the same price.

 

[Alaskan]

Does it have to be titanium ?

Pushkar, I think to push all the buttons the answer would be yes.

I presume the issue with titanium is the technical precision needed to properly weld and cast it, particularly as regards cast suspension linkages and welding to them, Would it be possible to cast the linkages in aluminum alloy with sockets to accommodate the titanium tubing. Are there electrolytic problems associated with have the two different metals in contact with each other that would preclude this?

 

[tallpaul]

G1 EBOXX E14 • Nicolai Bicycles

en.nicolai-bicycles.com

These are interesting looking bikes. Looked around but no US presence for now.

 

[Ebiker33]

Does it have to be titanium ?

Actually if you could pull that off in 6061 to bring the cost down, I would be favorable to that.
But you did such a good job selling the virtues of titanium on your first two bikes that's why I said that.

Your Travalanche will answer people who want to ride Whistlers A-line, but this Ebike is for people riding that hard packed trail in the rain uphill and they are hauling some stuff to day trip.

 

[pushkar]

Pushkar, I think to push all the buttons the answer would be yes.

I presume the issue with titanium is the technical precision needed to properly weld and cast it, particularly as regards cast suspension linkages and welding to them, Would it be possible to cast the linkages in aluminum alloy with sockets to accommodate the titanium tubing. Are there electrolytic problems associated with have the two different metals in contact with each other that would preclude this?

I can do pretty much everything that RM is doing, in Titanium. I have a current customer who will be trying out this solution on their bike soon. The only limitations is that as of right now the solution cant support a motor over 750W (Torque limited to 110-120Nm).

 

[byunbee]

This whole thread sounds like it's for people that would buy a Ford Raptor so that they can lower it and add racing tires....or buy a Shelby GT500 and put a lift kit to go off-roading.

 

[pushkar]

Actually if you could pull that off in 6061 to bring the cost down, I would be favorable to that.
But you did such a good job selling the virtues of titanium on your first two bikes that's why I said that.

I received 2 primary requests for the current UC Pro + CrossTour
1. Internal cable routing / Better Cable routing.
2. Internal battery.

One of my goals with WW bikes is to have easily available components. With the new UC Pro v2, we have chosen an integrated aluminum frame and all wires are routed internally. Further, we are usinga pack that is being widely used by everyone else. That satisfies the top #1 / #2

I will be selling both the Ti and Al versions of the UC Pro. Everyone has more options to choose from.

 

[byunbee]

I received 2 primary requests for the current UC Pro + CrossTour
1. Internal cable routing / Better Cable routing.
2. Internal battery.

One of my goals with WW bikes is to have easily available components. With the new UC Pro v2, we have chosen an integrated aluminum frame and all wires are routed internally. Further, we are usinga pack that is being widely used by everyone else. That satisfies the top #1 / #2

I will be selling both the Ti and Al versions of the UC Pro. Everyone has more options to choose from.

Ti version will continue to use the current frame design and not the new with integrated battery correct?

 

[pushkar]

Ti version will continue to use the current frame design and not the new with integrated battery correct?

Yes. That is correct.

 

[Ebiker33]

I received 2 primary requests for the current UC Pro + CrossTour
1. Internal cable routing / Better Cable routing.
2. Internal battery.

One of my goals with WW bikes is to have easily available components. With the new UC Pro v2, we have chosen an integrated aluminum frame and all wires are routed internally. Further, we are usinga pack that is being widely used by everyone else. That satisfies the top #1 / #2

I will be selling both the Ti and Al versions of the UC Pro. Everyone has more options to choose from.

None of that bothers me, but if people are so concerned about it my bike uses Curly Q Cable Ties to help clean it up and protect them.
Wire Cable Ties

Are wires getting so badly damaged on your current bikes that power is being lost to components, or are people just nervous about it happening?
Or are people just wanting a cleaner look ?

 

[smorgasbord]

I need a little education please. What is the key difference between On-road and off-road ? I want to better understand the need for having profiles.

Off-road you want more assist at lower speeds to get you up steep hills. But, you don't want an abrupt power surge from at rest, either.

On-road you want just enough assist to get you going from a stand-still (especially if you don't have a throttle), but you really want maximum power at high bike speeds so that you can go really quickly.

This article touches on the differences: https://shopsandiegoflyrides.com/bl...t-fly-rides/bosch-2020-motor-test-ride-review

Both motors now put out 75Nm of torque. People used to choose the CX line and derestrict it because it was rated at 75Nm while the old Performance Line was less, but they still were not really getting the benefit because the torque came on too low for high speed road use anyway.

Here's an article with an off-road perspective: https://ebike-mtb.com/en/bosch-performance-line-cx-2020-new-vs-old/

Here's Bosch's own comparison table: https://www.bosch-ebike.com/us/products/performance-line-cx/