Full Suspension, Cargo & Step Thru Titanium Frame

[Deacon Blues]

I'd be really interested in the weight of the FS UC Pro too.

 

[Merle Nelson]

Also interested in weight of FS titanium frame.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

Battery (11 - 12lbs); motor (13lbs); Carbon wheelsets (8.5lbs); running gear, etc. (10lbs). Running gear weight can be reduced a couple, four pounds - at great expense and often loss of utility/ reliability. 42.5, 43.5lbs
Ti tubing frame should be noticeably lighter (10 to 12lbs< than cast aluminum), but full suspension adds BIG weight (+9lbs). Suspension fork adds 4.5 - 5lbs.
Belt drive weighs 1/3 of chain/ derailer (save a pound) and (my choice) super reliable Sturmey Archer 3 speed hub (2lbs, 2.5oz).
I have a collection of Titanium fasteners/ seat-post clamps; nuts and bolts. Probably eliminate another pound and corrosion of steel fasteners. Lighter batteries, motor, perhaps a (1.5lbs) Ti fork are all that's left.
After my saddle and post (3lbs), a Ti, Ultra powered hardtail under 55lbs sounds doable - 60ish w/ full suspension. That's my expectations.
If you know of anything comparable and trustworthy, please share. I admit, these guys blew my mind. I'm getting in.
Their competitor's aluminum frame Ultras weigh in at 66 - 77lbs (or so they say).
An like you, I'm just sayin': How much do the frames weigh?
I've got a build to plan!

Happy 4th !!!

Fn'F

 

[Merle Nelson]

 

[Fast n' Furious]

 

[Fast n' Furious]

The motor puts out 200Nm+ and you can use Kindernay, Shimano 3 speed, SA 3 speed if geared right.

I'm looking 1000/ 1500w. 48 - 52v. On-road.
I saw your higher voltage controllers. Again why I'm going w/ you. Upgraded capacitors and MOSFETs. Top quality.
A bulletproof 160nm will do for now.
You don't recommend the Sturmey?

 

[pushkar]

I'm looking 1000/ 1500w. 48 - 52v. On-road.
I saw your higher voltage controllers. Again why I'm going w/ you.

thanks

Upgraded capacitors and MOSFETs. Top quality.
A bulletproof 160nm will do for now.
You don't recommend the Sturmey?

gear range is 177%. It’s solid for what it does. If you are not craving speed, that’s a fantastic option. Pick the gear ratio that works and it’s amazing

it you don’t want to trade speed or climbing ability , then pick Kindernay -543% gear range.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

You lost me. The final ratio is different? Can I increase the drive pully size? I'd move up to a 48t ring if this was a cassette.
Hey, want to alert you. Check your photos @ https://wattwagons.com/products/custom-frames . The Legacy's fork's 'U-brace' looks - shall we say - different?

Cheers,

Fn'F

 

[Acme]

The first ratio 177% is the Sturmy archer 3 speed 543% as the 12 speed Kindernay

 

[opimax]

On paper I want FS on a commuter bike that will do fire roads and more with wheel swaps . I have 2 concerns initially, willl I get an even smoother ride in reality and some improvement off road capability compared to the same bike without FS? I would be swapping wheels for the off road longer rides on dirt trails and fire roads.

I have never ridden any FS bike . I hope to keep at least 1 wheel if not both on the ground at all times. i hope to explore places just very controlled . More like I would use 4 wheel drive just to make sure I got home not go wild in a truck. I am looking to extend my seat time in comfort.

so are my expectations correct or I am lookinging at more maintenance and a possible failure point for something that is not for me?

 

[pushkar]

On paper I want FS on a commuter bike that will do fire roads and more with wheel swaps . I have 2 concerns initially, willl I get an even smoother ride in reality and some improvement off road capability compared to the same bike without FS? I would be swapping wheels for the off road longer rides on dirt trails and fire roads.

I have never ridden any FS bike . I hope to keep at least 1 wheel if not both on the ground at all times. i hope to explore places just very controlled . More like I would use 4 wheel drive just to make sure I got home not go wild in a truck. I am looking to extend my seat time in comfort.

so are my expectations correct or I am lookinging at more maintenance and a possible failure point for something that is not for me?

Please note that commuting bikes will have a (vertical) travel of no more than 100mm. Smoother is a function of suspension - the bike you have already had pretty much top of the line (for us) suspension. I would say for your style of riding, there is improvement, but probably marginal.

That being said, the biggest limiting factor will be the Rear rack - it can only take 25 lbs.

 

[onlineaddy]

I have similar use case as opimax, which is why I don’t think I really need FS. I would rather the bike do its best job at being a commuter bike.

 

[Deacon Blues]

Pushkar, does the full suspension UC Pro have the same suspension travel in the rear (100mm)?

 

[opimax]

How much do the batteries weigh? I am thinking I am in a class b or c RV , travel to the west , go on dirt rut trails and fire roads, carrry 1 battery per bag , fruit, multi tool, and 2 lbs of other misc.

another question I believe understand UC is for paths street , the hydra is for trails or down hill, what is Helios designed for ? UC but internal battery or a different price point or more in between The other 2? I like the appearance of internal batteries and the bike in general of the Helios as I have told you a billion times lol

 

[pushkar]

Pushkar, does the full suspension UC Pro have the same suspension travel in the rear (100mm)?

All FS commuters will have the same 100mm of (vertical) rear travel. Any more and there is too much bobbing on flat roads. Please note that the R&M FS commuters, Nicolai FS comuters etc also follow the same principal ( i mean we are not special, everyone gets to the same travel if you model out commuting geometry and loads on simulation).

All FS trail bikes will have up to 170mm of (vertical) rear travel. For off road, the bumps are significantly bigger, the wheel base is slightly longer, etc etc. The lowest I have seen in off road bikes is 140mm vertical travel.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

That machine's sick.
My present 53lb, 48v bike, an MXUS rear-hub pulls 890watts, advertised 90nm, probably >80nm, so this WW build will be my beta.
Craving performance and excellence, I never quit researching, arrived at the Ultra and Titanium being my thing for many years now, seeking a reliable Ti frame, Wattwagon is a natural.
I retired, quit driving and switched to an e-bike.
Certainly no expert, thus far I've concluded: F & R suspension shocks require disassembly every 50hrs, and a full overhaul every 200hrs, proprietary 'kits' and '$ - or a shop to service.
-
That means every 2.5 months riding for me and the big one at 10 months = +$1,000.00 every year for a shop to maintain plus the downtime.
I must comment sadly: "$300, 50hr maintenance" bike tech is severely behind even the cheapest brand automobile shocks which last a trouble-free 1000hrs and cost $17.00 each.
It's embarrassing. Materials exist; are cheaply available; the tech is plain; patents are published and have expired; we even have 3d printers.
Yet (German/ Italian made) Ferrari; Lamborghini; Porsche shocks, costing about the same, weighing less (on a sprung weight ratio) than (Chinese Made) Fox' or Rockshox' lightest, high maintenance rear suspension ... last 1000hrs Minimum?
A rear swing-arm and shock adds 6 - 10lbs to a build .
Not sure a about Ti iteration SA's, but the shocks are heavy, the apparatus is longer, the joints have steel parts and it all adds up.
Then there's the constant set-up madness. These systems leak and don't hold settings - fiddle, fiddle.
Some say 'XHYZ' is better, some say 'QUGD' is, but all types need constant adjustments.
FS systems, great when set up for each race, adventure, riding circumstance - not so much for daily driving over varied terrain/ on off-road dual use.
The better quality the shocks is, the more 'specific purpose' oriented they are - so lots more fiddling.
-
Reality sets in: I'm cruising down the paved road, fully suspended and muse "Gee, lets go down that off-road path" .
I stop, (fiddle, fiddle, fiddle) and attempt to get settings proper - but the pressure has leaked and settings are not the same numbers anymore.
I let a bit of air out.
Oh crap, it's too much !!! But having prepared I carry a (5lb) High Pressure pump (required).
Never know when I might have to stop and take 20 minutes to TRY to get ready to to go down an off-road section.
Or is it up?
"Uphill" settings are altogether different - as I try and remember, to try and guess what the incorrect settings translate to new values, logically required to compensate for the leaks . I know I have a predictive spreadsheet on my phone - somewhere - but has the leak ratio coefficient degraded - with all that bumping up and down?
'I can do this' I think (as theme from 'eye of the tiger' rings hollow in the background) !!!
It gets even better , Once I'm triumphantly past that off-road section, everything has to be reset when I get back on pavement , and the pressure has again leaked a lil' bit with that vigorous beating, so again and anew there is no reliable reference , and if I let too much air out - well, I have that Lead-weighted pump, right? If not, there are plenty more 's I can carry that'll turn my into a Tuna !
Of course (Surprise!), after filling up with air, all the settings are AGAIN different, old references are all false and everything has to be AGAIN reset.
-
I concluded FS gear is heavy, expensive, difficult and requires a lot of hands-on, intuitive experience to keep set up properly, quite specialized and the maintenance schedules are not up to snuff with automotive standards ... but it's a 'must have' for a rough terrain superbike of this caliber, if one learns to use it and has the time en-route to fiddle with it, but it's just too overwhelming for me.
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Q: You said 'our belt' performed well, in tests. Not a Gates? I see the frame does not appear split. I don't care - if you stand behind it, but 2300watts/ 200nm must be tough on drivetrains.
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Still waiting on Legacy frame weight stats so I can plot my other parts.
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Thanks for info.

Happy Fourth !!!

Fn'F




Fn'F

 

[Merle Nelson]

A lot of things I own I use no where near the potential of the item. I often think of how much more a person who sat down and studied it till they knew all of its capabilities could get out of any given thing. Even so, even if I only use it to 50% capacity or less, but it makes that experience seamless and just sing... Then it is worth it for me.

 

[opimax]

The amount maintenance required for this addition and the fact that I havent fiddled with the one shock I have are making me think twice about FS, One of the great things about this bike is the minimal amount of maintenance i have done , air in the tires so far and due an oil change soon…very minimal

 

[Fast n' Furious]

'Potential' and 'real world' are different creatures.
My 'real world', creates forms to fit a purpose, with rules set by the function required, not imaginary, fantasy, possibility and illusion.
'Potential' imagines and assumes fulfilling a purpose that never existed, not a planned utility.
I'm getting older and more conservative, but it's probably more fun to not have a strict focus and just assume everything is 50% overbuilt, as advertised - in case you need it.

FnF

 

[Fast n' Furious]

The amount maintenance required for this addition and the fact that I havent fiddled with the one shock I have are making me think twice about FS, One of the great things about this bike is the minimal amount of maintenance i have done , air in the tires so far and due an oil change soon…very minimal

Don't get me wrong. If I lived where my commute and recreation was largely unimproved roads, I'd bite the bullet put up with the maintenance. But I do my own wrenching.
I'd be shopping for the lowest maintenance, lightest rear shock (in that order) I could find: A spring type with maybe a Ti spring.
If weight's not as big a factor with you as me, that would make it even easier. Ti springs could get double crazy expensive.
There's good stuff here https://www.singletracks.com/mtb-ge...ks-and-forks-we-asked-the-suspension-experts/
I read some coils can be set up and that's it - until the bushings fail or something - after setting up with different springs in 4lb increments.
I came in late. Which bike do you have?

Fn'F