Full Suspension, Cargo & Step Thru Titanium Frame

Deacon Blues said:
No.
Click to expand...
I was addressing racks. But Ti full suspension? Sure!
The price has risen a lot !!! https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...offerlist.normal_offer.d_image.42d31c375uTOvJ
They were like $1800 3 months ago.
Expect a big hike on this end on anything Titanium.
1630182089729.png
 
Thanks for posting that Fn'F. That looks like a frame I could get excited about having built up.

I looked back through a bunch of your previous posts but am still not clear I understand your current focus. Do you mind sharing are you still headed toward a Watt Wagons Ti build in hard tail? Or where are you at on bike plans now?

Thanks again.
 
Pushkar said, awhile back, that he was going to weigh the FS titanium framed bike. I would be interested in how much it weighs, but the I'm not sure what it can be compared to.
 
Yes, that would be good to know. I was thinking a Ti frame bike would be a good high quality second bike for me because I was just assuming it was lighter AND stronger than aluminum. Maybe, maybe not.

I'll be interested to hear if there are any other Pros to Ti. One big con that I heard go by was the idea that it had to be very carefully set up and cared for during the welding process.
 
Merle Nelson said:
Oops...just googled Ti weight vs aluminum. I was one of the people who assumed Ti was lighter than aluminum.

Assuming you're still full steam ahead on Ti, what has you want it for a bike frame @Fast n' Furious ?
Click to expand...
Titanium is as strong as steel but 45% lighter, and twice as strong as aluminum - but only 60% heavier.
So Aluminum, requiring more mass to achieve the same strength as Titanium is definitely heavier.
Unlike Aluminum, Titanium alloys have excellent high cycle fatigue strengths as opposed to their tensile strengths.
Both have have excellent rigidity and flexibility, but the tensile strength of titanium is much much harder than gold, platinum or aluminum.
Titanium, a refractory metal is also highly resistant to heat and wear.
Corrosion resistance? A stable, substantially inert oxide film forms on Titanium's surface, providing the material with outstanding resistance to corrosion. Whenever fresh titanium is exposed to any environment containing oxygen (why I'm dumbfounded at 'painting titanium'), it immediately acquires a thin tenacious film of oxide that confers on the material its excellent corrosion resistance. If sufficient oxygen is present, the film is self healing and re-forms almost at once if mechanically damaged.
-
An Alloy frame requiring much more material to achieve the same relative strength, with more mass has reduced flexibility, and because it is thicker, unlike the Ti bike, flexing it risks fracture.
Proper Titanium welds are actually stronger than the material being welded - but Aluminum Alloy welds are the weakest points.
Example: I weld a 3' x 6" piece of 1/8 Aluminum to a 2' 6" piece, end to end. Now I pick up the ends and bend them together. Aluminum will fail at the weld. Titanium will fail at roughly the 3o'clock point.
To achieve the proper strength, Aluminum welds need to be much thicker. Titanium weld need only be a fraction the depth.
My understanding is that Aluminum is far more difficult to weld of the two because of heat conductivity. The thicker the puddle required to achieve specified strength in that area, the faster it hardens at the bottom of the puddle, causing a half molten half semis-solid rearrangement of the crystal state - like a fault - in the weld. Also, as it cools it oxidizes - part of the weld. Never does this happen w/ Titanium, but as I've chuckled over and mentioned a failure in Argon shielding leads to a bad weld contaminated w/ TIO2.
So to avoid the above puddle cooling, the heat conductivity requires heavier welders ... and the spread of much more heat to the parts they are welding destroys the Aluminum's temper for quite some distance from the weld. Titanium is not subject to these effects.
A crack at the bottom bracket is a death sentence for an Aluminum G510. Cheaper to buy a new frame. The weld will be weaker than the surrounding metal, now also weakened by losing it's temper, so the crack comes right back.
-
I place a lot more confidence in bare metal where I can see the welds, than sanded down, bondo'ed over and painted defects.
While I admire them, I've decided an FS bike is overkill for my needs, out of my league and I couldn't use my panniers to shop.
Oh yes. Full steam ahead and damn the torpedo's. My next machine will be Titanium. Didn't decide that after I arrived, I came here looking for it.
I'm fine with the external battery. Internal cables would be swell, but fatter tubes means thinner walls, and or price hikes and added weight. Also, I can't see it with stiff lined hydraulics - but what do I know.
-
There are a number of FS G510 Alloy frames with enclosed Dorado, even cable routing if one prefers.
direct factory Aluminum alloy electric bike frame full suspension bicycle frame ultra motor G510 frame
 
Merle Nelson said:
Thanks for posting that Fn'F. That looks like a frame I could get excited about having built up.

I looked back through a bunch of your previous posts but am still not clear I understand your current focus. Do you mind sharing are you still headed toward a Watt Wagons Ti build in hard tail? Or where are you at on bike plans now?

Thanks again.
Click to expand...
I posted it for the FS folks information. I had considered these machines before hearing about WW. They are quite stunning.
My focus is a CrossTour; 3SP SA; CDX; 2300w; Open Throttle.
Mattoc fork is the lightest option.
SA is 1095gms, Kindernay is 2180gms.
The rest is still undecided.
 
Fast n' Furious said:
Titanium is as strong as steel but 45% lighter, and twice as strong as aluminum - but only 60% heavier.
So Aluminum, requiring more mass to achieve the same strength as Titanium is definitely heavier.
Unlike Aluminum, Titanium alloys have excellent high cycle fatigue strengths as opposed to their tensile strengths.
Both have have excellent rigidity and flexibility, but the tensile strength of titanium is much much harder than gold, platinum or aluminum.
Titanium, a refractory metal is also highly resistant to heat and wear.
Corrosion resistance? A stable, substantially inert oxide film forms on Titanium's surface, providing the material with outstanding resistance to corrosion. Whenever fresh titanium is exposed to any environment containing oxygen (why I'm dumbfounded at 'painting titanium'), it immediately acquires a thin tenacious film of oxide that confers on the material its excellent corrosion resistance. If sufficient oxygen is present, the film is self healing and re-forms almost at once if mechanically damaged.
-
An Alloy frame requiring much more material to achieve the same relative strength, with more mass has reduced flexibility, and because it is thicker, unlike the Ti bike, flexing it risks fracture.
Proper Titanium welds are actually stronger than the material being welded - but Aluminum Alloy welds are the weakest points.
Example: I weld a 3' x 6" piece of 1/8 Aluminum to a 2' 6" piece, end to end. Now I pick up the ends and bend them together. Aluminum will fail at the weld. Titanium will fail at roughly the 3o'clock point.
To achieve the proper strength, Aluminum welds need to be much thicker. Titanium weld need only be a fraction the depth.
My understanding is that Aluminum is far more difficult to weld of the two because of heat conductivity. The thicker the puddle required to achieve specified strength in that area, the faster it hardens at the bottom of the puddle, causing a half molten half semis-solid rearrangement of the crystal state - like a fault - in the weld. Also, as it cools it oxidizes - part of the weld. Never does this happen w/ Titanium, but as I've chuckled over and mentioned a failure in Argon shielding leads to a bad weld contaminated w/ TIO2.
So to avoid the above puddle cooling, the heat conductivity requires heavier welders ... and the spread of much more heat to the parts they are welding destroys the Aluminum's temper for quite some distance from the weld. Titanium is not subject to these effects.
A crack at the bottom bracket is a death sentence for an Aluminum G510. Cheaper to buy a new frame. The weld will be weaker than the surrounding metal, now also weakened by losing it's temper, so the crack comes right back.
-
I place a lot more confidence in bare metal where I can see the welds, than sanded down, bondo'ed over and painted defects.
While I admire them, I've decided an FS bike is overkill for my needs, out of my league and I couldn't use my panniers to shop.
Oh yes. Full steam ahead and damn the torpedo's. My next machine will be Titanium. Didn't decide that after I arrived, I came here looking for it.
I'm fine with the external battery. Internal cables would be swell, but fatter tubes means thinner walls, and or price hikes and added weight. Also, I can't see it with stiff lined hydraulics - but what do I know.
-
There are a number of FS G510 Alloy frames with enclosed Dorado, even cable routing if one prefers.
direct factory Aluminum alloy electric bike frame full suspension bicycle frame ultra motor G510 frame
Click to expand...
Is this frame TI or Aluminum?
 
Fast n' Furious said:
Titanium is as strong as steel but 45% lighter, and twice as strong as aluminum - but only 60% heavier.
So Aluminum, requiring more mass to achieve the same strength as Titanium is definitely heavier.
Unlike Aluminum, Titanium alloys have excellent high cycle fatigue strengths as opposed to their tensile strengths.
Both have have excellent rigidity and flexibility, but the tensile strength of titanium is much much harder than gold, platinum or aluminum.
Titanium, a refractory metal is also highly resistant to heat and wear.
Corrosion resistance? A stable, substantially inert oxide film forms on Titanium's surface, providing the material with outstanding resistance to corrosion. Whenever fresh titanium is exposed to any environment containing oxygen (why I'm dumbfounded at 'painting titanium'), it immediately acquires a thin tenacious film of oxide that confers on the material its excellent corrosion resistance. If sufficient oxygen is present, the film is self healing and re-forms almost at once if mechanically damaged.
-
An Alloy frame requiring much more material to achieve the same relative strength, with more mass has reduced flexibility, and because it is thicker, unlike the Ti bike, flexing it risks fracture.
Proper Titanium welds are actually stronger than the material being welded - but Aluminum Alloy welds are the weakest points.
Example: I weld a 3' x 6" piece of 1/8 Aluminum to a 2' 6" piece, end to end. Now I pick up the ends and bend them together. Aluminum will fail at the weld. Titanium will fail at roughly the 3o'clock point.
To achieve the proper strength, Aluminum welds need to be much thicker. Titanium weld need only be a fraction the depth.
My understanding is that Aluminum is far more difficult to weld of the two because of heat conductivity. The thicker the puddle required to achieve specified strength in that area, the faster it hardens at the bottom of the puddle, causing a half molten half semis-solid rearrangement of the crystal state - like a fault - in the weld. Also, as it cools it oxidizes - part of the weld. Never does this happen w/ Titanium, but as I've chuckled over and mentioned a failure in Argon shielding leads to a bad weld contaminated w/ TIO2.
So to avoid the above puddle cooling, the heat conductivity requires heavier welders ... and the spread of much more heat to the parts they are welding destroys the Aluminum's temper for quite some distance from the weld. Titanium is not subject to these effects.
A crack at the bottom bracket is a death sentence for an Aluminum G510. Cheaper to buy a new frame. The weld will be weaker than the surrounding metal, now also weakened by losing it's temper, so the crack comes right back.
-
I place a lot more confidence in bare metal where I can see the welds, than sanded down, bondo'ed over and painted defects.
While I admire them, I've decided an FS bike is overkill for my needs, out of my league and I couldn't use my panniers to shop.
Oh yes. Full steam ahead and damn the torpedo's. My next machine will be Titanium. Didn't decide that after I arrived, I came here looking for it.
I'm fine with the external battery. Internal cables would be swell, but fatter tubes means thinner walls, and or price hikes and added weight. Also, I can't see it with stiff lined hydraulics - but what do I know.
-
There are a number of FS G510 Alloy frames with enclosed Dorado, even cable routing if one prefers.
direct factory Aluminum alloy electric bike frame full suspension bicycle frame ultra motor G510 frame
Click to expand...
Somebody 'splain to me like I'm five: Is there any real reason to put that swoop in a top tube? To me a straight top tube looks so much better.
 
Merle Nelson said:
Thanks for posting that Fn'F. That looks like a frame I could get excited about having built up.

I looked back through a bunch of your previous posts but am still not clear I understand your current focus. Do you mind sharing are you still headed toward a Watt Wagons Ti build in hard tail? Or where are you at on bike plans now?

Thanks again.
Click to expand...
To be honest Merle, I'd much prefer a rear hub drive and a Pinion 1.12, but there's no hub that can compete with the G510's powerful endurance - esp w/ the WW's X1 controller, which I'm hoping will pull up a 20mi long, 6 - 10% grade (SL to 1800ft) paved bike path and not thermal trigger. I intend to find out.
For me, rear hub, center-mid Pinion being more a 'my weight shift controls the machine', w/ bias slightly towards the rear (oversteer),not 'all directly underneath me', means I can overcome the bias with my weight, or use it to fling the machine - if I have the power to push it and the guts to not panic. Yes. I drive that way at times.
Drive a Carrera RSR a few laps, you get it. Over-shoot a turn, start to lose control, 650hp pushing and the butt heavy rear trying to swing around on you - you smash the throttle and power through, or spin.
This stuff is easy. Much harder to get killed.
Lacking hands on expertise or a long term life experience education, knowing my limitations I prefer a proven professional creates my vision's base and I take over.
Because I support the pursuit of excellence, I feel good about being a patron of sorts to artist/ scientists combining the best of tech into working masterpieces (and, of course I expect Pushkar to be fabulously famous so I can tell my great-grandkids "he only did it because of me", lol)
My first and only e-bike is my icon photo.
My second will be a Ti masterpiece.
My short list:
Titanium frame/ themed, Cross Tour style Hardtail (naturally oxidized grey frame w/ mix of (heat-treated process) Black Ti fasteners). NO CHROME. Must be pannier capable. Under 65lbs.
Uphill endurance motor (G510) 150nm - 200nm
IGH
Twist shifter and Throttle
Gates (CDX)
Wheelset 27.5 x 3.0; 27.5 x 4.0 capable w/ through axle
4 pot discs w/ cut offs
Lightest Fork available and up to the build
..........................................................................................
I surf fish. Salty beach sand means a CDX. I'm about ready to settle but wobbling between the various IGH's.
Kindernay is awesome, but lacks of an indicator, has added clutter of two stiff hydraulic lines clear to my bars (See, that's why we can't have nice things - like internal wiring) and I may not be able to use it if it requires my thumb on the left side*.
Maybe a Rohloff, for the large range, but my weight goes up nearly 2 lbs, via a vis the SA 3SP.
Wracking my brain, every time I sleep on it, next day I conclude I'm still not certain and it would be a real pain in the arse-bone to be dissatisfied and have to change the IGH/ dropouts/ etc.
I think I've found a 'possible' solution - which, naturally begs another question:
Will a 70T CDX ring clear the WW CT's chain-stay?
..........................................................................................
*Note: The question 'when will you have a different shifter (addressing the flaws)?' has been raised in Kindernay's Q & A section for years.
The answer is and has been: "Currently the HYSEQ 2SIE is the only shifter available. For more information about new products and release dates, please follow our social media channels or register to our newsletter".
Read: Join a captive audience that just can't wait 'till we'all come out with a damn 'gear indicator'?
Then it's "Tada.🥳 ... We have 'developed' a [NORMAL] unique 🤩twist-shifter🍋" - it's only 🤑 $1000 - to fix a problem we created, and we can all sing kumbaya 👨‍🌾. But meanwhile⏰, it's "Look Ma💪!!! I just bought a Ferrari :cool: without a gear indicator 🤪. Try and guess what gear I'm in?"🤔 (hey really. I can tell by feel - cruuuuunch 🙄). Never mind 😬, it's on warranty 😭.
I really like Scrambler's expansion on Pinion IGH's https://electricbikereview.com/foru...-systems-rohloff-vs-pinion.34923/#post-356565 . I know he 'sent me to the books' again - confirming Pinion as King of the IGH Kingdom.
What makes his commentary special is articulatable knowledge of an evolution, the full gamut from engine driven machines, to bicycles and motor driven eBikes.
The Pinion drive is a the huge reason to prefer a rear hub - no choice. So (note to self), dream on if there's no applicable hub.
 
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