FlatOut and -9F, Comedy Gold

[Jason Knight]

As it is on my Aventure with the 4" tires Flatout applied per instructions -- half a container per tire (which seemed excessive)-- the liquid remained too viscous to spread evenly so if I accelerated quickly it all stays on one side causing balance issues in 50f/colder weather. The claims of it "spreading out under the force of rotation" being utter bunko.

Well, winter is here and after a -9F / -22C night it froze to one side of the tire causing those balance issues no matter what. And then while riding I hit a bump and horrific noises came from the tires... it had shattered into pieces that are rattling around inside. Though at least it rode smoother without that whum-whum-whum of the tire going around off-balance.

So... I guess next warm day I get to take the bike apart, drain and flush the tubes best I can, and put slime in which seems to not flip out in low temps. So much for the highly touted "FlatOut".

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Hey Jason,
Nobody expects that a water based sealant would remain liquid at very low temperatures. Any sealant would freeze at such low temps.
Did you know that 37.5% abv rum also freezes at the temperature you have given?

 

[tomjasz]

So much for the highly touted "FlatOut".

Eeyup.
I won’t treat my winter wheels. Minnesnowta is cold too. Riding in 9 below? What doesn’t freeze?
Ever wonder about motor lubricants viability at those temps?

 

[tomjasz]

Hey Jason,
Nobody expects that a water based sealant would remain liquid at very low temperatures. Any sealant would freeze at such low temps.
Did you know that 37.5% abv rum also freezes at the temperature you have given?

Well apparently some of us aren’t as astute (effete?). I’m freely admitting I missed that detail too. It’s why we’re here. I learn. You could too.

Ever the critic...

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Well apparently some of us aren’t as astute (effete?). I’m freely admitting I missed that detail too. It’s why we’re here. I learn. You could too.

No point to bash Flat Out. My gravel riding buddy was so happy when he converted to tubeless! (That required using the sealant). What his surprise was when he discovered he would ride during a frosty winter as well!

Ever the critic...

I respect you Tom for many things. It was you to explain many things to me when I was new to electric bikes.
Now, just get off my foot. It hurts.

 

[Jason Knight]

Hey Jason,
Nobody expects that a water based sealant would remain liquid at very low temperatures. Any sealant would freeze at such low temps.
Did you know that 37.5% abv rum also freezes at the temperature you have given?

I could agree with that if not for two issues.

1) It starts showing issues at 50F

2) I've got an unused tube of slime in the garage that was right next to the bike, that's thick, but still liquid. Well, more of a gel but still.

It shouldn't be rocket science to put an anti-freeze additive into something going into tires. A little ethylene glycol can go a long ways. Even if it's just enough to make it gel rather than freeze. Or add some ether or kerosene so as to prevent water separation.

well... the latter two might not be the brightest idea, but something along the lines of formula 911.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I could agree with that if not for two issues.

1) It starts showing issues at 50F

2) I've got an unused tube of slime in the garage that was right next to the bike, that's thick, but still liquid. Well, more of a gel but still.

It shouldn't be rocket science to put an anti-freeze additive into something going into tires. A little ethylene glycol can go a long ways. Even if it's just enough to make it gel rather than freeze. Or add some ether or kerosene so as to prevent water separation.

well... the latter two might not be the brightest idea, but something along the lines of formula 911.

You are right. Sealants could be made better. Still, the expectation of manufacturers (wrong one) is bikes are to be ridden in the warm season. As Tom here said, I would not use any sealant for the cold season.

 

[tomjasz]

No point to bash Flat Out. My gravel riding buddy was so happy when he converted to tubeless! (That required using the sealant). What his surprise was when he discovered he would ride during a frosty winter as well!

I respect you Tom for many things. It was you to explain many things to me when I was new to electric bikes.
Now, just get off my foot. It hurts.

my mistake for reading you. I’ll be certain to sort that.

 

[Jon A]

Tubeless works fine in cold weather. Just use the right sealant. Orange Seal Subzero is very popular in the fatbike world for a reason. Works down to -20 F.

 

[ruffruff]

I'm 50/50 about the whole tubeless deal.
I for sure run tubes in my fat tire for cold weather riding.

 

[Avg_Joe]

You should reach out to the FaltOut people, the material/safety sheet for the product states it will remain liquid to -35C (pg 3 of https://www.flatouttire.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/FlatOut-Tire-Additive.pdf)

FWIW I've not experienced any of the globbing/balancing issues you mention ("causing balance issues in 50f/colder weather") but I've only had mine stored/out riding in the 20'sF to 50's.

"The claims of it "spreading out under the force of rotation" being utter bunko." Bunko to you, not bunko to me and many others.

This is all kind of suspicious anyway, makes me wonder if you had other water and crap in the tubes....

 

[john peck]

I avoid putting any kind of goo in my tires. Twice I have done so, & twice
the valve stem clogged up making it impossible to add air.

 

[PedalUma]

I will sometimes put tubeless latex in a tube. I did that on a Ritche gravel bike yesterday. But then I put O-ring lube on and in the valve. Nothing sticks to O-ring lube.

stem clogged

 

[Jason Knight]

Update, after the thaw I pulled the front tire, and there was definitely liquid already in the tube above/beyond what came in the flatout bottle. So apologies to flatout, something was hinky with my front tire/tube. My bad.

Combined with whatever the blazes was in the rear brake line that allowed for bacterial growth (see my new thread) either Aventon or their parts vendors have some real quality control issues. Either that or someone along the parts path is intentionally screwing with them.

 

[Kayakguy]

It's a common cliche that "there are no stupid questions," but I think I have conceived of one that might qualify: What would happen if one were to put the Slime or other sealant into the tire instead of the tube? The advantage would be that you could manually spread the sealant all around to make sure it was well distributed. Also there would be no clogging of the valve stem.

Stupid? Enough so that I don't think I'll try this experiment. Anyhow, just food for thought, or a bone for contention.

 

[Jason Knight]

It's a common cliche that "there are no stupid questions," but I think I have conceived of one that might qualify: What would happen if one were to put the Slime or other sealant into the tire instead of the tube? The advantage would be that you could manually spread the sealant all around to make sure it was well distributed. Also there would be no clogging of the valve stem.

Stupid? Enough so that I don't think I'll try this experiment. Anyhow, just food for thought, or a bone for contention.

The sealant is supposed to stay a liquid until there's a puncture so it can get blown out through the hole where it solidifies. The "foaming" that occurs going through the puncture is usually what makes the seal.

Or at least that's how I understood it.

 

[PedalUma]

 

[mschwett]

It's a common cliche that "there are no stupid questions," but I think I have conceived of one that might qualify: What would happen if one were to put the Slime or other sealant into the tire instead of the tube? The advantage would be that you could manually spread the sealant all around to make sure it was well distributed. Also there would be no clogging of the valve stem.

Stupid? Enough so that I don't think I'll try this experiment. Anyhow, just food for thought, or a bone for contention.

that’s how tubeless tires work. the tire (and rim, with tape) creature the pressure vessel, with an even layer of sealant around the tire side, held there by being sticky and the forces of the wheel spinning around. when there’s a hole, the internal pressure forces the sealant into the hole, where it foams up and seals the hole… depending on how big the hole is

with a tube, if the tube was punctured, the sealant would be on the wrong side of the hole relative to the high pressure side!

 

[PedalUma]

I am doing a commuter bike right now. It is getting Super Moto X with green guard, Mr. Tuffy, and Stan's. Commuters can't use the excuse of a flat. He will need to ride one section that spirals up 50 feet in four sharp rotations. It is a pedestrian bridge over a ten lane freeway. Bums hang there at night smashing bottles.

 

[Jason Knight]

Commuters can't use the excuse of a flat

Exactly why I'm sketchy on going tubeless, even if the weight savings on a fat bike do look attractive. I went tubeless on my 3 speed cruiser, and after four curb "burps" I went right back to having tubes. Consensus among a lot of local riders I've talked to here in Keene NH is that between the curbs lacking depressions to cross, potholes, and just plain wide road-width cracks that can at speed throw you off the pedals, tubeless takes too m3uch maintenance and leaves you stranded too often.

Makes me wonder how the off-road guys even find it viable.