Electric Car thread

[Readytoride]

Lots of EV bashing, yes. Also lots of EV religion around.

As with all religions, lots of faith-based beliefs. Which can make logical pros-and-cons discussion impossible. Like asking a Lutheran to debate a Muslim. Can't.

Religions are ideology. Electric vehicles are fact. The former you can't see, touch, or smell (well, maybe that's debatable because a lot may say religions as a whole do stink. On the other hand, many laud the emotional benefits while completely ignoring any whiff of the olfactory) because they are cerebral only. The latter are physical and subject to the laws of nature, science, and government.

Bashing is often done out of ignorance, or hate, or fear, or greed, or attempts to keep the status quo despite the inevitable looming changes being brought about by shifting priorities. It often tends to rely upon either misinformation or a gathering of slanted (sometimes even untrue) intel from questionable sources that may offer only a narrow, vague selected version of facts that are less fact than they are conjecture.

Bashing does seem to emulate religion at times. I'll give you that.

Facts on my electric car(s) from a half decade of ownership: Insurance costs are due to new manufacture and more expensive car bodies, not the battery, just as insurance isn't focused on a combustion engine. (My insurance company told me this so I assume they know what they are talking about.) Batteries last as long, if not longer, than 100k miles, and unlike a combustion engine don't wear out internal parts or rust away. (Manufacturers statement.) Batteries are fairly easily recycled and, by their very nature, suitable to a wide range of many different energy storage applications, unlike a car combustion engine which has a very finite usage that is narrowly defined. (Secondary market declarations for solar backup systems, and from talking to the head of the service department of a dealership I know that has had to service EV batteries either by swapping out cells or replacing the battery as a whole. They said the whole swap batteries are sent directly back to the mfr for evaluation, breakdown, and recycling). Batteries are not being discarded into landfills. (Per our local county landfill which has said under no circumstances would a EV battery be accepted. They only accept 12v batteries, and those are collected for recycling. I asked them about EV batteries when I was at the landfill 3 days ago. It was a very informative conversation aided by the fact that I was the sole vehicle in line at the entry window at that time and the staff was happy to relax and shoot the breeze with me about electric cars.)

I've asked, directly to the source or as close a representative as possible, on the aspects of the above because I'm interested in the growing technology and the infrastructure surrounding it.

And I do recognize a pile of manure when I see it. I've owned horses for over 50 years. Fact. I've been a writer for over 50 years as well. Another fact. I can smell manure when it's presented in print, and that article reeked of it.

 

[scrambler]

And I do recognize a pile of manure when I see it. I've owned horses for over 50 years. Fact. I've been a writer for over 50 years as well. Another fact. I can smell manure when it's presented in print, and that article reeked of it.

You do have to develop a nose for biased articles with an agenda these days if you want to have a chance at reality....
I wish they would create a mandatory school and university curriculum to teach people how to navigate today's endless list of traps society sets for them, especially around disinformation, manipulation scams and abuse.

Finland is one of the only countries that not only recognized the issue early on, but took it seriously enough to do something about it since 2014, and it does appear to help

Finland is winning the war on fake news. Other nations want the blueprint

Russia's neighbor has developed a plan for countering misinformation. Can it be exported to the rest of the world?

www.cnn.com

 

[Readytoride]

Article on J.B Straubel, former CTO of Tesla, about his new venture in battery recycling.

Former Tesla CTO speaks out on issue with rise in production of EVs: 'It would fundamentally be impossible'

JB Straubel, former Tesla CTO, has set out on his own into an industry he sees as vital for the future: battery recycling.

www.thecooldown.com

Technology Review article on battery recycling

This is where Tesla’s former CTO thinks battery recycling is headed

JB Straubel speaks about his company, Redwood Materials, and what challenges loom for batteries.

www.technologyreview.com

 

[6zfshdb]

Like others who have poster in this thread, I'm not against EV's per se but I'm not ready to jump on the band wagon just yet.

My biggest concern is long term power outages, particularly during wide spread disaster events like hurricanes or wildfires. Fossil fuels can be imported into these hard hit areas via truck or pipeline. Electricity can't when the grid has sustained major damage. How are police, fire, EMT personnel and the general population going to get around if they can't recharge their vehicles? Sure, generators can be used at police, fire and EMT stations, but will every person with an EV have to maintain their own generator? What will power these generators when fossil fuels are a thing of the past?

I live in an area prone to frequent power outages which sometimes last a week or more. I have a small portable generator which will power the fridge, furnace, small appliances and a few lights. It's not large enough to effectively charge an EV for every day use. Were I to get an EV, will I need to install solar or wind generators and a large battery bank too? If so, that will make for a huge investment!

I'm sure all these problems will be worked out over time but the push to convert to electric transportation seems to be well ahead of any solutions.

 

[GizmoEV]

I'm sure all these problems will be worked out over time but the push to convert to electric transportation seems to be well ahead of any solutions.

The push to electric transportation has become ridiculous. It is to the point where it will continue, just let people decide when/if they want to get an EV. It will happen in time, and give the grid a chance to build-out the necessary capacity and infrastructure. EVs aren't for everyone in every situation. I've been driving an EV since 2006. I was the first one to upgrade my Gizmo EV (see my profile pic) to use LiFePO4 batteries. My physics degree gives me an understanding and background of the innerworkings of EVs which many don't have. It also helps me see BS in articles like the one cited several posts above. I currently have two EVs, both 200+ mile range vehicles. I also have a diesel pickup for various reasons, mostly to pull my travel trailer. It is the right tool for the job. When my daughter needed a new car, I counseled her to look for a gas-only vehicle, given her current situation. She found the right tool for the job. If an EV would have done what she needed, I would have suggested it, but it couldn't do what she needed right now.

One of the things the huge push to EVs is doing to some people is that I meet many who say they won't ever get an EV as long as they are being pushed/coerced to get one.

 

[scrambler]

I am not sure what push we are speaking of here. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy an EV today....
Long term goals are being announced, but this is just in order to accelerate the necessary developments.

 

[GizmoEV]

I am not sure what push we are speaking of here. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy an EV today....
Long term goals are being announced, but this is just in order to accelerate the necessary developments.

Things like the ban on the sale of new ICE vehicles, the various money incentives to get people to buy EVs, people telling others, in various ways, that they are somehow bad people if they don't embrace an emissions free transportation. Naturally, everyone won't see thing the same way, but when I run into people feeling coerced, the message is not doing what it is intended to.

 

[scrambler]

Things like the ban on the sale of new ICE vehicles

These are future goals, we all know nothing will happen unless there is a workable and sustainable system in place. I see them as incentive that we need to work in that direction

the various money incentives to get people to buy EVs

Incentives/subsidies have been used for decades for all sort of things, (the biggest recipient of subsidies today is still the oil industry). I find a lot of benefits in using electricity for transportation, so I see no problem with putting incentive on its development. Solar has had incentive for many years and that has helped the development of the technology and lowered its cost which believe was a good thing.

people telling others, in various ways, that they are somehow bad people if they don't embrace an emissions free transportation.

That is the result of the extreme polarization of our current societies. Polarization that has been engineered by special interests over the last decades, so they can more easily manipulate the population. This is a major issue that is progressively moving today's societies toward authoritarianism and something that is definitely a major concern.

 

[GizmoEV]

A goal would be to have people choose to no longer purchase ICE vehicles, legislating a ban is a completely different thing, not a goal, and is a definite dis-incentive for a large portion of the population. The best incentive would be to stop subsidizing the oil industry and the EV industry, among others.

Polarization that has been engineered by special interests over the last decades, so they can more easily manipulate the population. This is a major issue that is progressively moving today's societies toward authoritarianism and something that is definitely a major concern.

I agree. Too many are voting/choosing based on emotion and not critical thinking, this is where the social engineering has been working too well. FWIW, I see the ICE sales ban as an authoritarian move. I think a much better and long-lasting approach is the education approach.

 

[scrambler]

I think a much better and long-lasting approach is the education approach.

I am 100% for education.
That is assuming the special interests won't ban the books needed for that education

 

[PDoz]

Like others who have poster in this thread, I'm not against EV's per se but I'm not ready to jump on the band wagon just yet.

My biggest concern is long term power outages, particularly during wide spread disaster events like hurricanes or wildfires. Fossil fuels can be imported into these hard hit areas via truck or pipeline. Electricity can't when the grid has sustained major damage. How are police, fire, EMT personnel and the general population going to get around if they can't recharge their vehicles? Sure, generators can be used at police, fire and EMT stations, but will every person with an EV have to maintain their own generator? What will power these generators when fossil fuels are a thing of the past?

I live in an area prone to frequent power outages which sometimes last a week or more. I have a small portable generator which will power the fridge, furnace, small appliances and a few lights. It's not large enough to effectively charge an EV for every day use. Were I to get an EV, will I need to install solar or wind generators and a large battery bank too? If so, that will make for a huge investment!

I'm sure all these problems will be worked out over time but the push to convert to electric transportation seems to be well ahead of any solutions.

Sounds like you need a phev with vehicle to grid ( or just load) capability - a well maintained generator on wheels, hooked up to a decent battery and the capacity to support your home during those power outages ? Preferably with several recharge options - solar and wind?

It's a scenrio I worry about - prolonged bush fires reduce solar . The drid is down due to fires taking out power lines. The windy days are the ones we need to evacuate , so the phev isn't going to be hooked up to the wind generator. AND the fuel stations are the last place I want to be when the embers are dropping....

Last big burn we had around here effectively closed road transport for months. Just as covid hit... A nearby town became reliant on the navy dropping supplies / evacuating residents because there were hundreds of km of road blocked by fallen timber - even the army couldn't get through. No power for months, not enough fuel so the generators ran dry . This was when people started taking phev vehicles with v2g capacity seriously. Still far from an easy option to set up, but food for thought.

 

[6zfshdb]

Like so many things in life, what works for you depends largely on your lifestyle, your budget and where you live. EV's may not be practical for everyone now but they will be at some point in the future. Whether it happens in my lifetime or not is the question.

 

[Readytoride]

My biggest concern is long term power outages, particularly during wide spread disaster events like hurricanes or wildfires. Fossil fuels can be imported into these hard hit areas via truck or pipeline. Electricity can't when the grid has sustained major damage. How are police, fire, EMT personnel and the general population going to get around if they can't recharge their vehicles? Sure, generators can be used at police, fire and EMT stations, but will every person with an EV have to maintain their own generator? What will power these generators when fossil fuels are a thing of the past?

That was my concern, too, albeit not the biggest (which was range anxiety)....until the day 2 years ago when a windstorm took out the local Grid for 3 days. Not an extensive amount of time, but it was the first time I had really worried how to recharge my car. After a certain amount of panic (but of course) I decided to see how widespread the outages were in my neck of the woods. Turns out it was pretty extensive with about a quarter of the Commonwealth of Virginia in the dark, but not everywhere. And those "not everywhere" places weren't that far from me AND had charging stations. A great sense of relief, to be sure, although I was miffed to not being able to charge at home. The closest "lights still on" was my favorite grocery store in a town 12 miles up the road. The closest "Level 3 fast charging" was 24 miles away, a pay to charge EVgo, as was my Nissan dealership 32 miles away with the free fast Level 3 charge.

So I went about life as usual. The gas stations in the blackout areas were closed with signs up. No electricity meant they couldn't pump gas. It would appear none had pre-thought about emergencies with a backup generator. They didn't appear bothered by hanging "closed " signs on the pumps, and going home. Fortunately the fire company and EMTs were in the "lights still on" zone, so no worries by them.

I decided I would do a late night shopping trip and plug in my car at the free Level 2 in the grocery store parking lot. I took a good book with me and relaxed for the 2 hours (Level 2 is a mere 7kWh) it took to recharge back to 100%.

I haven't been bothered since.

Now, a hurricane would wreak havoc on more widespread areas, but honestly if the Grid is down, that affects gas stations as well as residences. We have a number of neighbors around us that have the whole house generators that can easily recharge an EV while still running all the electric for the houses. It is easier to truck in a large generator for an emergency station that to try and deliver fuel with all the attending risks. And when fossil fuels are a thing of the past, solar panels will have already long been crowned king for our source of electric power

I agree that it is going to take time for all the nuances involved in the infrastructure to be sorted out and dealt with the most efficient way possible.

"The world ..it is...a-changing.

 

[GizmoEV]

Several years ago, one of my neighbor's trees blew down on the power lines feeding my area and took out 11 power poles in the 1.4 miles below me and an unknown number beyond my house. We were without power for several days while the power company replaced all the broken poles and restrung new lines. (The old ones didn't have much stretch which is why so many poles broke.) I already had an 8kW generator since our power went out often and it was needed to keep my basement from flooding. I merely built an extension cord to reach my EVs for charging. Any time the generator was running to power the house, I had my EV plugged in. It was easier than driving to one of the only charge stations in town, a L2. The nearest quick charge station was 30 miles away. With a 90-mile range EV at the time, that wasn't really an option.

Some day, I want to see what my miles/gallon would be if I used my generator to charge my EV. It probably won't be that great since I'm sure my generator isn't that efficient.

 

[Mulezen]

An interesting comparison of ICE and BEV. Author takes pains to show his methodology

Gas Cars Are Embarrassingly Uncompetitive — Lifecycle Cost Analysis - CleanTechnica

Gas Cars Are Embarrassingly Uncompetitive – Lifecycle Cost Analysis to EV,

cleantechnica.com

 

[Rossterman]

Like so many things in life, what works for you depends largely on your lifestyle, your budget and where you live. EV's may not be practical for everyone now but they will be at some point in the future. Whether it happens in my lifetime or not is the question.

While I agree the disadvantages will slowly be whittled away the biggest long term risk is the finite quantities of minerals needed to fill the supply chain as well as the significant damage the open pit mining will inflict. I recognize batteries are moving away from cobalt but EVs still utilize it in electric motor manufacturing And the US’s major lithium supply sits smack dam in the middle of a nat’l forest land. personally I see hydrogen as a more viable long term solution just now in it’s infancy

 

[Mulezen]

Hydrogen…economical green (and blue) H will make its mark in industry before transportation which in itself would displace some hydrocarbons

 

[6zfshdb]

Hydrogen…economical green (and blue) H will make its mark in industry before transportation which in itself would displace some hydrocarbons

I agree that hydrogen is relatively cheap and more easily stored but it takes energy to produce commercially. Burning fossil fuels, biomass or using electricity for electrolysis are the current methods. If you take fossil fuels out of the equation, that leaves biomass and electricity.

Can we create enough biomass to supply the nations demand for hydrogen? Can we burn it without polluting the air? We can make electricity using a variety of "clean" methods, why not just use it directly for transportation instead of converting it into hydrogen?

I'm no expert on this and I only know enough to ask the stupid questions.

IMO, advancements in technology will determine what we ultimately use to power our future vehicles.

 

[Mulezen]

Spoiler alert, most commercial H2 is made from NG and it has a host of problems all its own( Hindenburg actually wasnt)

New catalysts for making Hydrogen are making it more economic to produce.
Also Hydrogen production in the Gulf of Mexico via wind and transported via NG infrastructure to shore is proposed
spoiler alert…check your facts about the Hindenburg fire and its cause

 

[6zfshdb]

Food for thought.

If a driverless electric vehicle gets pulled over by the police, who gets the ticket? Interesting read:

If a driverless car gets pulled over by the police for a traffic infraction, who gets the ticket?

Answer (1 of 8): Since the driverless car does have a driver seat and controls, the person sitting there gets the ticket.

www.quora.com

For that matter, how do they pull it over in the first place?

https://www.sacbee.com/news/nation-world/national/article260361345.html#:~:text=The%20electric%20self%2Ddriving%20car,Police%20Department%20told%20McClatchy%20News.