EBR made me do it!

[Stefan Mikes]

reports from more sophisticated creo 2 users suggest the range is identical if the power output is identical, which is what you’d expect. obviously the assist settings need to be reduced since the multiplication factor is higher.

weight of the creo 2 with the same wheels and tires and seat post as the creo 1 actually seems to be a tiny bit less, not more. it’s just the heavy wheels and tires and dropper and groupset at work.

since vado sl already had relatively heavy wheels and tires (compared to s-works or expert creo) i don’t think the SL 1.2 vado will be heavier. it may be very slightly lighter.

What you say is Oll Korrect I meant the range of a SL 1.2 e-bike with the default settings would be shorter.

When I was more active on the gravel group rides with strong riders (riding my Vado SL 1.1), I dreamed to have something like 120% assistance, as I was missing some on asphalt to keep up with the group! The SL 1.2 would provide even more than that; still, I could have used up as many as 4 Range Extenders on a 140 km ride having the less powerful SL 1.1 motor. While I could probably use just a single RE if I rode lowly assisted.

(The group rides required derestricting the e-bike to be able to ride above 25 km/h. Now, with the 'e-Sprint' racing format, I need to keep my Vado SL legally restricted).
-----------
Jeremy:
It was many years ago now. I decided to buy the first (and the last as it turned out) Home Theater. Just a week after the purchase a new model with a USB socket appeared in stores...

 

[mschwett]

….! The SL 1.2 would provide even more than that; still, I could have used up as many as 4 Range Extenders on a 140 km ride having the less powerful SL 1.1 motor. While I could probably use just a single RE if I rode lowly assisted.

yes, increasing the motor power without increasing the battery has been a controversial move! personally i think it’s the right one, but people do need to turn down the assist settings

 

[kevinmccune]

reports from more sophisticated creo 2 users suggest the range is identical if the power output is identical, which is what you’d expect. obviously the assist settings need to be reduced since the multiplication factor is higher.

weight of the creo 2 with the same wheels and tires and seat post as the creo 1 actually seems to be a tiny bit less, not more. it’s just the heavy wheels and tires and dropper and groupset at work.

since vado sl already had relatively heavy wheels and tires (compared to s-works or expert creo) i don’t think the SL 1.2 vado will be heavier. it may be very slightly lighter.

good info,btw ordered some mushroom gummies( said to have some vado included,we shall see) i sinned a bit by jamming the throttle down on a steep hill[lately i been spotted with big mac on my breath]( from a genuine"junkfood high-forgot the artist,so it goes)

 

[Slaphappygamer]

good info,btw ordered some mushroom gummies( said to have some vado included,we shall see) i sinned a bit by jamming the throttle down on a steep hill[lately i been spotted with big mac on my breath]( from a genuine"junkfood high-forgot the artist,so it goes)

Funny song!

Kevinmccune made me do it.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Some tire questions, please.

The Vado SL 5.0s now come with 700x38 Nimbus 2 tubed tires rated for 50-80 psi. These city tires are NOT tubeless-ready.

Since the bike will be doing some gravel, Plan A was to switch to tubeless Pathfinder Pros to be run at lower pressures. But just noticed that the Pathfinders are also rated for 50-80 psi.

Q1. Is that 50-80 psi the tubed pressure rating?

Q2. If so, what would the Pathfinder's tubeless pressure range be?

Q3. Any other tried and true 700x38 tubeless hybrids I should consider? Tires that can be run at, say, 30 psi?

 

[DaveMatthews]

Some tire questions, please.

The Vado SL 5.0s now come with 700x38 Nimbus 2 tubed tires rated for 50-80 psi. These city tires are NOT tubeless-ready.

Since the bike will be doing some gravel, Plan A was to switch to tubeless Pathfinder Pros to be run at lower pressures. But just noticed that the Pathfinders are also rated for 50-80 psi.

Q1. Is that 50-80 psi the tubed pressure rating?

Q2. If so, what would the Pathfinder's tubeless pressure range be?

Q3. Any other tried and true 700x38 tubeless hybrids I should consider? Tires that can be run at, say, 30 psi?

I had not considered different pressure for tubed vs tubeless.
I do know that tubeless can be run at lower pressure without fear of a pinch flat.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Jeremy:
Specialized puts the word "2BLISS" just before the allowed pressure range on its tubeless ready tyre sidewall, which clearly indicates that the pressure range is for the tubeless setup. I would personally stay inside the same pressure range for the tubed setup.

The reason is:

• The lower limit is for protecting the tyre sidewall against damage
• The upper limit protects the tyre against blowing up or damaging the rim. (During the first inflation of the tubeless tyre, high pressure is momentarily used to "shoot" the tyre bead onto the rim).

As Dave said, one of the reasons a rider might use a fairly low pressure on a tubeless tyre is a "pinch flat" cannot occur without the presence of the inner tube. However, it is not the main reason why tubeless tyres are so great:

• Specialized Pro 2Bliss tyres are supple, meaning, they absorb a lot of road vibration (more than you could believe)
• These are fast rolling, meaning low rolling resistance.
• Tubeless tyres are greatly puncture-proof. That is, small punctures are quickly self repaired with the sealant. In most of cases you either cannot notice these got punctured, or you just remove the thorn from the tyre, re-inflate and go. In case of a big puncture, the hole can be repaired with the repair kit with the wheel still on the bike! (Carrying a CO2 canister is recommended in case the tyre has got completely flat).
• The lack of the tube makes the wheel more lightweight, reducing the rotating mass a little bit.
• Tubeless can be safely ridden close to the lower limit even by a heavier person.

You mentioned Nimbus. Nimbus is a stiff tyre, and actually you can feel it...

Q3. Any other tried and true 700x38 tubeless hybrids I should consider? Tires that can be run at, say, 30 psi?

It is all about the physics, Jeremy. The less volume in the tyre, the higher pressure has to be maintained inside, so the tyre wouldn't collapse. Don't expect magic here.

Having said the above:

• I ride Pathfinder Pro 2Bliss 47-622 on my big Vado in the tubed setup. All for the virtue of the tyre being supple and fast rolling.
• I use Tracer Pro 2Bliss 42-622 on my Vado SL (no fenders, hence 42 not 38 mm) for all the benefits that tubeless gives me.

Even if I am a heavy person, I ride both e-bikes at a fairly low pressure. Both tyre models (despite different tyre width) quote 2Bliss 35-65 psi. I ride both e-bikes at 45 psi, and reduce the pressure for Vado SL to 40 psi for gravel racing.

Also bear in mind reducing the pressure means increasing the rolling resistance. All must be done reasonably:

Tire Pressure Calculator

Finally a tire pressure calculator based on real-road rolling resistance measurements. On real roads—rather than on a steel drum in the lab—supple high-performance tires work best at considerably lower pressures than most cyclists are used to. Lower pressures roll as fast or faster, while...

www.renehersecycles.com

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Jeremy:
Specialized puts the word "2BLISS" just before the allowed pressure range on its tubeless ready tyre sidewall, which clearly indicates that the pressure range is for the tubeless setup. I would personally stay inside the same pressure range for the tubed setup.

The reason is:

• The lower limit is for protecting the tyre sidewall against damage
• The upper limit protects the tyre against blowing up or damaging the rim. (During the first inflation of the tubeless tyre, high pressure is momentarily used to "shoot" the tyre bead onto the rim).

As Dave said, one of the reasons a rider might use a fairly low pressure on a tubeless tyre is a "pinch flat" cannot occur without the presence of the inner tube. However, it is not the main reason why tubeless tyres are so great:

• Specialized Pro 2Bliss tyres are supple, meaning, they absorb a lot of road vibration (more than you could believe)
• These are fast rolling, meaning low rolling resistance.
• Tubeless tyres are greatly puncture-proof. That is, small punctures are quickly self repaired with the sealant. In most of cases you either cannot notice these got punctured, or you just remove the thorn from the tyre, re-inflate and go. In case of a big puncture, the hole can be repaired with the repair kit with the wheel still on the bike! (Carrying a CO2 canister is recommended in case the tyre has got completely flat).
• The lack of the tube makes the wheel more lightweight, reducing the rotating mass a little bit.
• Tubeless can be safely ridden close to the lower limit even by a heavier person.

You mentioned Nimbus. Nimbus is a stiff tyre, and actually you can feel it...


It is all about the physics, Jeremy. The less volume in the tyre, the higher pressure has to be maintained inside, so the tyre wouldn't collapse. Don't expect magic here.

Having said the above:

• I ride Pathfinder Pro 2Bliss 47-622 on my big Vado in the tubed setup. All for the virtue of the tyre being supple and fast rolling.
• I use Tracer Pro 2Bliss 42-622 on my Vado SL (no fenders, hence 42 not 38 mm) for all the benefits that tubeless gives me.

Even if I am a heavy person, I ride both e-bikes at a fairly low pressure. Both tyre models (despite different tyre width) quote 2Bliss 35-65 psi. I ride both e-bikes at 45 psi, and reduce the pressure for Vado SL to 40 psi for gravel racing.

Also bear in mind reducing the pressure means increasing the rolling resistance. All must be done reasonably:

Tire Pressure Calculator

Finally a tire pressure calculator based on real-road rolling resistance measurements. On real roads—rather than on a steel drum in the lab—supple high-performance tires work best at considerably lower pressures than most cyclists are used to. Lower pressures roll as fast or faster, while...

www.renehersecycles.com

Thanks! How about Pathfinder vs. Tracer vs. Trigger Pro 2Bliss? All come in 700x38 — the first two at 50-80 psi, the Trigger at 45-90 psi.

The Pathfinder looks like it would roll fastest on pavement, the Trigger slowest. The Tracer has a very interesting tread, but I saw some noise complaints about it. Similar puncture resistances?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Pathfinder Pro is decidedly the fastest of these tyres, and it is completely silent on the pavement! It is also ideal for gravel. Do not count on this tyre if you need to ride in the mud or sand though...

The Tracer Pro is noisy on the pavement, true. I love this tyre for the performance in the forest, mud or sand (a big part of Poland is sandy!) I chose the Tracer for the terrain I most often ride for sport.

No experience with the Trigger but it looks a purely cross-country tyre. You would hate it on the pavement!

I had no puncture issues with the Pathfinder or Tracer. Yes, there was an issue with the Pathfinder installed tubed on my Vado SL. I am sure it was some sharp object that entered the inside of the tyre and was puncturing the inner tube. As I could not detect the cause, I went tubeless afterwards. Necessary to mention the Pathfinder Pro on my big Vado has no issues (probably a bad luck with Vado SL).

 

[EMGX]

To the OP, I hope you end up loving your new bike. Everyone has their order of priorities but that bike seems to sacrifice a lot for the reduced weight vs a full power, larger battery bike. The only proprietary ebike I have is the now discontinued BH gravel X. Unmodified it weighed slightly less than 41 pounds including pedals (no rack or fenders). That's for the Yamaha 70nm mid drive, 500wh battery with 2x11 gearing that gets me up virtually any grade (even with bad knees that I can't stress anymore) and overall good range. I think that I read that your new bike will be 38# stock, a range extender would bring it up to over 40# but still have a lower power motor. In search of something significantly lighter I tried a Qiroll (advertised as providing 250W max continuous friction drive which weighs less than 4# total including battery) which made the bikes I tried it on weigh 31-32#. While the assist is impressive for what it is, it gave me the option for assist when I really didn't need it but didn't provide what I needed on steeper grades. As a reference my neighborhood road rises 400ft in 1 mile and a ride into town is ~4 miles with ~1000ft elevation gain which includes several up and down steep sections. Not so long ago when my knees were better I could do all of the steep inclines on second to lowest "eco" (2 of 4) setting but now freely use the highest setting on the steepest which are in the neighborhood of 20%, more or less. Unfortunately ebikes present with a lot of compromises, especially when striving for a low weight bicycle. I hope it all works out well for you and I look forward to reading about your experiences with your beautiful new bike.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

To the OP, I hope you end up loving your new bike. Everyone has their order of priorities but that bike seems to sacrifice a lot for the reduced weight vs a full power, larger battery bike. The only proprietary ebike I have is the now discontinued BH gravel X. Unmodified it weighed slightly less than 41 pounds including pedals (no rack or fenders). That's for the Yamaha 70nm mid drive, 500wh battery with 2x11 gearing that gets me up virtually any grade (even with bad knees that I can't stress anymore) and overall good range. I think that I read that your new bike will be 38# stock, a range extender would bring it up to over 40# but still have a lower power motor. In search of something significantly lighter I tried a Qiroll (advertised as providing 250W max continuous friction drive which weighs less than 4# total including battery) which made the bikes I tried it on weigh 31-32#. While the assist is impressive for what it is, it gave me the option for assist when I really didn't need it but didn't provide what I needed on steeper grades. As a reference my neighborhood road rises 400ft in 1 mile and a ride into town is ~4 miles with ~1000ft elevation gain which includes several up and down steep sections. Not so long ago when my knees were better I could do all of the steep inclines on second to lowest "eco" (2 of 4) setting but now freely use the highest setting on the steepest which are in the neighborhood of 20%, more or less. Unfortunately ebikes present with a lot of compromises, especially when striving for a low weight bicycle. I hope it all works out well for you and I look forward to reading about your experiences with your beautiful new bike.
View attachment 181638

Thanks! My reservations exactly.

We'll soon know if the SL can get me over local hills and through busy intersections in an acceptable knee-friendly way. If no further delays, only 3 days to the first test!

The SL will complement my more powerful commuter. Still plenty of good uses for the latter.

To me, "nimble, responsive" means above all significantly lighter wheels, lighter everything else, and lower rolling resistance compared to the commuter. The SL will likely take me far enough in that direction.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Dang, my SL's delayed again — at least another week.

Dealer says Fedex picked it up from Specialized's Texas warehouse as originally planned but has yet to send it on — reason unknown.

Meanwhile, I've been gathering up some of the kit you guys recommended. The QuadLock case works well with my phone, and so far, so good on the Out Front Pro mount needed to use it on my existing ebike below.

Like the SL itself, the regular Out Front for the SL has yet to arrive, but I'm hopeful that it will work out.

The jury's still out on the EVT Safe Zone helmet mirror needed at least for the SL trial period. Much smaller field of view than my existing Serfas mirror above, and adjustment seems to be something of a black art. Also need to close my right eye to get a clear image. This will take some getting used to.

 

[BlackHand]

Why cant you use your Serfas mirror on the SL?

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Why cant you use your Serfas mirror on the SL?

Maybe I can once I accept the SL. But the current bike will still be in use during the SL trial period. Need a 2nd mirror for the SL, and I've been meaning to try a helmet mirror anyway. Now I have another week to get used to it with the Serfas as backup.

 

[RabH]

At least that's what I told my wife. And just what did I do in your name?

Just ordered a Specialized Vado SL 5.0 EQ in yellow, my favorite bike color!

View attachment 180896

Many thanks to the many knowledgeable EBR members who shared their time and experience to get me to this point.

Why the SL 5 EQ? Just for something completely different, I wanted a fun, light, nimble, non-MTB flat-bar ebike as far removed from my 61 lb hub-drive commuter as possible. (The commuter will stay on as a utility/beach bike.)

First thought was a 32 lb Creo 2 Comp, but realistically, the drop bars would have been a mistake with my stiff neck. And properly outfitting the bare Creo would have taken it from barely within budget to a life sentence in the doghouse.

That makes the 36 lb SL 5 EQ my best bet. Under the Specialized satisfaction guarantee (no restocking fees on new bikes), I'll have 30 days to give my 3 main reservations a thorough test:

1. Will 240W and 35 Nm be enough help on local hills, many above 10%? Probably, but making no assumptions at age 76.

2. Will I have to cough up another $485 for a range extender and cable?

3. Will the stiff, unsuspended alloy frame be too jarring — even with the stock FutureShock 1.5 stem and the added Redshift suspension seat post?

Taking delivery in 8 days. Putting the odds of keeping this beauty at 90%. Fingers and toes crossed.

Thanks again for all the help, guys! Thoughts on accessories and upgrades welcome.

Enjoy your new steed , Jeremy! Yellow is my least favourite colour but it will get you seen which is good, I hope you have many miles of fun on it!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

This waiting is unbearable...

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

This waiting is unbearable...

Ditto. Trying to be philosophical about it, if I'd picked up the SL tomorrow, I would have had only one full day with it before leaving it behind for a week away. That would have been unbearable, too.

This way, I'll have 6 days at Mandalay and Huntington Beaches to distract me, the SL will be ready when I get back (fingers crossed), and I'll have an uninterrupted 30 days of glorious SoCal fall weather to prove that I'm a strong enough rider for it.

Life could be worse.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

More encouraging results from ongoing pre-SL experiments on the hub-drive

Turns out, my 61 lb, 500W, 65 Nm torque-sensing hub-drive can get me up most nearby hills — some over 10% — at knee-friendly cadence and acceptable exertion in assist level 3 of 9. That's about 1 of 5 on a Level.2.

The display's (presumably electrical) power meter stays mostly under 15% and never exceeds 25% on these climbs — even when pushing pretty hard at 6-7 mph. Since the hub motor's pretty inefficient at such low wheel speeds, the mechanical power I'm actually getting from it on those hills could well be lower than the SL's peak 240 W mechanical.

Conclusion: As a mid-drive, the SL's mechanical power out is tied to cadence, not wheel speed, and peaks at my usual 80-90 RPM. If the gearing's low enough to support that cadence on these slow climbs, the SL could actually work on the hills I usually ride!

Might need to resort to Turbo mode on the steepest ones, and even steeper hills come up now and then. So the SL's fate could come down to gearing options and the need to lug around an RE on typical rides.

 

[mschwett]

More encouraging results from ongoing pre-SL experiments on the hub-drive

Turns out, my 61 lb, 500W, 65 Nm torque-sensing hub-drive can get me up most nearby hills — some over 10% — at knee-friendly cadence and acceptable exertion in assist level 3 of 9. That's about 1 of 5 on a Level.2.

The display's (presumably electrical) power meter stays mostly under 15% and never exceeds 25% on these climbs — even when pushing pretty hard at 6-7 mph. Since the hub motor's pretty inefficient at such low wheel speeds, the mechanical power I'm actually getting from it on those hills could well be lower than the SL's peak 240 W mechanical.

Conclusion: As a mid-drive, the SL's mechanical power out is tied to cadence, not wheel speed, and peaks at my usual 80-90 RPM. If the gearing's low enough to support that cadence on these slow climbs, the SL could actually work on the hills I usually ride!

Might need to resort to Turbo mode on the steepest ones, and even steeper hills come up now and then. So the SL's fate could come down to gearing options and the need to lug around an RE on typical rides.

do you know how steep your typically-conquered hills are?

75 RPM on your vado 5 sl eq (44-51, 38mm 700c) is 5.5 mph.

it takes 400w to push 220lb up a 15% grade at 5.5mph
it takes 270w to push 220lb up a 10% grade at 5.5mph

the former would require turbo 100/100 and for you to put out 160-180w of leg power. my guess is that’s too much for sustained cycling. the latter shouldn’t be a problem at all…. so the breaking point is somewhere between a 10 and 15% grade.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

do you know how steep your typically-conquered hills are?

75 RPM on your vado 5 sl eq (44-51, 38mm 700c) is 5.5 mph.

it takes 400w to push 220lb up a 15% grade at 5.5mph
it takes 270w to push 220lb up a 10% grade at 5.5mph

the former would require turbo 100/100 and for you to put out 160-180w of leg power. my guess is that’s too much for sustained cycling. the latter shouldn’t be a problem at all…. so the breaking point is somewhere between a 10 and 15% grade.

Very useful numbers! The SL and I will probably end up near 235 lb, but the power estimates are easily adjusted, as most of the power's lost to resistances proportional to weight.

Problem is, I have no trustworthy grade data. RideWithGPS clearly underestimates grades around here, and On the Go Map clearly overestimates. I usually figure about 5/4 of RideWithGPS grade with scant evidence to back it up.

On that basis, your SL breaking point sounds quite plausible. Fortunately, the steepest hills I've encountered here have all been under 1 km long.