convince me this bike doesn't exist!

[mschwett]

A few thoughts, but no certain solution ...

I think the issue of properly supporting a child seat is going to be the biggest issue affecting your overall weight requirements. Traditional racks for panniers with the common 4 point mounting using m5 bolts aren't really up to that. All the commercial child seat compatible rack setups I've seen are built more robustly than that. So that all means a heavier rack, larger mounting hardware with reinforced mounting points ... and that leaves out the road bike/lighter weight commuter designs I've seen.

Yes, you don't want/need something as robust as a cargo bike but instead your requirements sound more like a solid commuter style bike that's been on a diet. There are some standards (which the commercial bike manufacturers rigorously adhere to) or commonly used guidelines for a child seat compatible setup which means a substantially more overbuilt setup than what you actually need. If I was in your situation (and my child wasn't pushing the upper weight guidelines) I'd consider building my own setup starting with a steel framed bike (so it already has extra strong mounting points), a good strong (name brand - likely something like Blackburn) traditional rack with high strength hardware (something like this - https://www.mcmaster.com/bolts/thread-size~m5/alloy-steel-socket-head-screws-8/).

i’m really tempted to build something. maybe steel
but maybe aluminum - the aluminum frame on the vanmoof has no problem at all supporting the frame mount seat, approved by both vanmoof and thule. rock solid. for the various reasons you note i’m not too keen on rack mounted seats except on much heavier bikes. once she gets to 40lb we’ll go a different direction for sure. i’ve seen some pinion-ready steel hardtail frames, have to look a bit and see what else is out there that would work with a rear hub motor. light-ish steel frame, pinion, belt drive, rear hub motor and a bottle battery would be fun!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Hmm...

Pinion C1.9 (gearbox only): 2 kg
Mahle Ebikemotion x35 M1 motor: 2.1 kg
Battery weight? Spec Range Extender with the cable is 1.1 kg.

Only the components as listed above weight 5.2 kg. Desiknio promises the non-EQ version at 14.8 kg. It means the rest of the bike would be 9.6 kg (21.1 lb). Very, very lightweight bike as for an aluminium one. And when I read things like "Panasonic 18650GA - 10S/2P CAN BUS, 7 Ah" then I run in the opposite direction. Because I see it is another league and instantly wonder if I could replace the battery in 2 years.

Any chance for a demo ride, mschwett? Who would repair your Desiknio in case of trouble? Not my money but I learned to be very cautious in the e-bike world...

 

[PedalUma]

This one checks all the boxes. It has British racing green rims, a curvy 25Kg rack, and polished fenders. This is a preview because it is in the process. By the end of today it will be ready. 350W, torque sensor, 80Nm, 41 pounds with the fenders and rack. And it will not look electric.

 

[mschwett]

Hmm...

Pinion C1.9 (gearbox only): 2 kg
Mahle Ebikemotion x35 M1 motor: 2.1 kg
Battery weight? Spec Range Extender with the cable is 1.1 kg.

Only the components as listed above weight 5.2 kg. Desiknio promises the non-EQ version at 14.8 kg. It means the rest of the bike would be 9.6 kg (21.1 lb). Very, very lightweight bike as for an aluminium one. And when I read things like "Panasonic 18650GA - 10S/2P CAN BUS, 7 Ah" then I run in the opposite direction. Because I see it is another league and instantly wonder if I could replace the battery in 2 years.

Any chance for a demo ride, mschwett? Who would repair your Desiknio in case of trouble? Not my money but I learned to be very cautious in the e-bike world...

10kg is about the weight of a typical aluminum road or gravel bike, so it goes back to the ability of the seat tube in such a bike to support a 40-50lb load in “rotation” relative to the axis of the tube.

i’ll have to dig into desiknio more, but there are a lot of shops here which build and work on “custom” eBikes, so it’s probably not too hard to find someone to do the stuff i’m not able to do myself. one problem with the vanmoof of course is that it’s a black box, highly integrated but entirely proprietary. as an example it’s out of commission for a week presently, because of a battery fault (specifically what who knows) that requires battery replacement, and there are no batteries in stock until a week from yesterday.

 

[mclewis1]

Pinion C1.9 (gearbox only): 2 kg
Mahle Ebikemotion x35 M1 motor: 2.1 kg
Battery weight? Spec Range Extender with the cable is 1.1 kg.

Only the components as listed above weight 5.2 kg. Desiknio promises the non-EQ version at 14.8 kg. It means the rest of the bike would be 9.6 kg (21.1 lb). Very, very lightweight bike as for an aluminium one. And when I read things like "Panasonic 18650GA - 10S/2P CAN BUS, 7 Ah" then I run in the opposite direction. Because I see it is another league and instantly wonder if I could replace the battery in 2 years.

A 9.6kg/21.1lb "analog" bike without the BB and rear hub? (those pieces are covered by the gearbox and rear hub motor) That would be roughly comparable to a complete 23+lb road/gravel bike and so could easily be built up with more affordable mid tier components and no Ti hardware. It should also be pretty straight forward with an aluminum frame, even allowing for one designed to house the Pinion gearbox.

I think I'd be a lot more comfortable having a new 20 cell battery built from scratch than requiring a possible 2nd mortgage for something unique with the Bosch or Specialized brand stamped on it. While the Desiknio battery and controller that's stuffed into the down tube is likely a bit more of a custom build, it is also likely to be made up of readily sourced or substituted, and assembled parts. Even as a more custom type of build this isn't something built with off brand or questionable quality parts and assembly, and if it's done with good quality components then it's likely to last just as long as anything from B or S.

I might feel a bit differently if I didn't have the luxury of time to source or build a replacement (and there the extra cost of the brand name could be viewed as insurance), but that's also why I built my ebikes out of readily available quality components.

 

[mclewis1]

This one checks all the boxes. It has British racing green rims, a curvy 25Kg rack, and polished fenders. This is a preview because it is in the process. By the end of today it will be ready. 350W, torque sensor, 80Nm, 41 pounds with the fenders and rack. And it will not look electric.

That's lovely, and I'm looking forward to seeing the final "after" pics.
Too bad about the caliper brakes, but at least they're dual caliper.
I never got those secondary brake levers. Yes maybe if you have smaller hands or compromised hand strength that makes braking from the hoods a bit iffy, but I always felt that if you spent an inordinate amount of time with your hands in the center of the bars and weren't comfortable just reaching for the levers from the hoods that you might as well just go with a flat bar setup.

 

[mschwett]

A 9.6kg/21.1lb "analog" bike without the BB and rear hub? (those pieces are covered by the gearbox and rear hub motor) That would be roughly comparable to a complete 23+lb road/gravel bike and so could easily be built up with more affordable mid tier components and no Ti hardware. It should also be pretty straight forward with an aluminum frame, even allowing for one designed to house the Pinion gearbox.

I think I'd be a lot more comfortable having a new 20 cell battery built from scratch than requiring a possible 2nd mortgage for something unique with the Bosch or Specialized brand stamped on it. While the Desiknio battery and controller that's stuffed into the down tube is likely a bit more of a custom build, it is also likely to be made up of readily sourced or substituted, and assembled parts. Even as a more custom type of build this isn't something built with off brand or questionable quality parts and assembly, and if it's done with good quality components then it's likely to last just as long as anything from B or S.

I might feel a bit differently if I didn't have the luxury of time to source or build a replacement (and there the extra cost of the brand name could be viewed as insurance), but that's also why I built my ebikes out of readily available quality components.

since you said the T word, that would be a really fun build too…… looks like such a thing ALMOST exists - replace the horribly ugly and heavy battery in this with a bottle battery…

s Pinion Adventure Titanium electric Bike

BOX AND GATES CDX BELT, THIS E-BIKE PEDELEC IS EXTREMELY DURABLE AND RELIABLE. Our clean Titanium Pinion E Bike Pedelec with the Gates belt combines the perfect sPinion bike with the extremely silent and powerful GO SwissDrive hub motor

www.hilite-bikes.com

 

[Stefan Mikes]

For me, Desiknio looks like a traditional bike forced to become an e-bike by slapping the rear hub-drive motor and the battery in (hence, the DIY terminology mentioning Ah, and the battery layout). Still, it is not my money.

 

[mschwett]

For me, Desiknio looks like a traditional bike forced to become an e-bike by slapping the rear hub-drive motor and the battery in (hence, the DIY terminology mentioning Ah, and the battery layout). Still, it is not my money.

as a longtime heavy-lift drone builder the DIY battery terminology doesn’t bother me 10s is fine with but 200wh is certainly a tiny bit on the light side!

 

[PedalUma]

They put the Add To Cart button right there!
But you are better off having a motor that goes through the gears. With an X35 or similar hub-drive the motor is single speed. The gears are only for pedaling. That British racing green bike is an R18 drop bar. Its Public Bikes brother has discs and a flat bar. I put extra powerful shoes on it so it locks up and skids. It is not mine. It is for someone who commutes to the Marin Civic Center. I have some images of builds at PedalUma.com, Public Bike are popular here because they are based in the next town. You will need more like 500Wh.

 

[mschwett]

images of wright’s local masterpiece always appreciated

500wh is way overkill for me, i’ve never come close to draining either my 320wh creo or 500+wh S3 in even several days of normal riding.

 

[mclewis1]

since you said the T word, that would be a really fun build too…… looks like such a thing ALMOST exists - replace the horribly ugly and heavy battery in this with a bottle battery…

Yeah, that would be lovely ... but I hyperventilate seeing the price.

I have a similarly lovely Ti Litespeed Appalachian sitting in the corner. It's 25 years old and isn't a particularly good donor option, unless I consider using a very small front hub and an appropriate controller in the range extender faux battery format, or a small mid drive (which to me looks horrible ugly and heavy ).

 

[Dewey]

German brand Schindelhauer also have several models with the Pinion IGH + Mahle ebikemotion combo, the Antonia and Arthur VI/IX models weigh 35lb but have a thicker seatpost housing that might not accept the Yepp seat bracket, the Emil & Emilia models have a conventional seat post and weigh 5lb more but you could reduce that if you unbolted the front rack, you can order shipped from Velorution in London, UK

 

[Stefan Mikes]

as a longtime heavy-lift drone builder the DIY battery terminology doesn’t bother me 10s is fine with but 200wh is certainly a tiny bit on the light side!

All I wanted to say was there are e-bikes designed as e-bikes from the day 1, and conversions pretending to be manufactured e-bikes. Why don't you DIY your dream e-bike yourself?

I understand your objectives. Ever thought to get yourself an exciting full-power, high class e-bike such as 2022 Turbo Vado that is guaranteed to be child-seat compatible? If you think it is too much power, just use Mission Control to reduce the assistance What is wrong with a heavier e-bike? (Bear in mind: a day when your e-bike breaks on the e-bike side is imminent; it is good to have an organization with strong warranty and good service behind your back).

 

[mschwett]

All I wanted to say was there are e-bikes designed as e-bikes from the day 1, and conversions pretending to be manufactured e-bikes. Why don't you DIY your dream e-bike yourself?

I understand your objectives. Ever thought to get yourself an exciting full-power, high class e-bike such as 2022 Turbo Vado that is guaranteed to be child-seat compatible? If you think it is too much power, just use Mission Control to reduce the assistance What is wrong with a heavier e-bike? (Bear in mind: a day when your e-bike breaks on the e-bike side is imminent; it is good to have an organization with strong warranty and good service behind your back).

i carry my bikes up and down stairs, into trains and buses and ferries, steps and elevators at home, and aim to supply most of the pedal power myself. the weight is definitely a hard stop/limit in the 40lb range, especially when you consider the added weight of the child seat (and child )

the prospect of the e-side breaking is definitely another reason for a light bike with good gearing. i’m confident i can maintain and predict the failure of tires and chains and gears, but riding a 65lb bike up a 15% grade with “e-bike gearing” to get home without the motor is not in the cards!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

but riding a 65lb bike up a 15% grade with “e-bike gearing” to get home without the motor is not in the cards!

Why did it never happen to me with my 53 lb Vado? (net weight). I still cherish the remembrance of me crossing the "green border with Slovakia" over the hiking mountain trail.

I had a pannier with the spare battery, tools, and drinks on my Vado (making it far heavier). The hardest part started with a loose gravel ride, followed by a 18.6% climb off-road. Later, I was riding a hiking path, grass, then again a hiking path so narrow and muddy I had to walk my Vado at times, using the Walk mode. And carry my e-bike over some obstacles. And I made it!

To complete the story, I'm sixty with multiple ailments including leg arteriosclerisis and inadequate blood supply. Yet the full power Vado with mountain gearing made such adventures doable for me. And you know what? Vado SL wouldn't make it, lightweight or not

At the hiking trail with my full-power Vado.

Actually, two heavy panniers. See the 38T chainring (the stock one was 48T).

The hardest climb. The trip was 43.5 mi with 4100 ft elevation climb. I was on far longer rides with more elevation gain on last vacation but that day was the hardest.

 

[PedalUma]

I like titanium bikes a lot. Here is one I did with a small mid-drive last month. The owner wanted large battery. I like the smaller ones. This rack is not for a child but what is nice is that it can go on a bike without frame bosses for a rack. He is not going to break this Ti bike.

 

[OrTrek]

i carry my bikes up and down stairs, into trains and buses and ferries, steps and elevators at home, and aim to supply most of the pedal power myself. the weight is definitely a hard stop/limit in the 40lb range, especially when you consider the added weight of the child seat (and child )

the prospect of the e-side breaking is definitely another reason for a light bike with good gearing. i’m confident i can maintain and predict the failure of tires and chains and gears, but riding a 65lb bike up a 15% grade with “e-bike gearing” to get home without the motor is not in the cards!

mschwett - FYI and maybe you've seen this. The Ride1Up Roadster v2 is on sale now. Different prices by size/color.
58CM in Red and Silver - $895; 58CM in Black - $945; 52CM in Red and Silver - $995 and the 52CM ib Black is back down to $1045. The gravel bike is not on sale.

Hmmm

 

[mschwett]

Why did it never happen to me with my 53 lb Vado? (net weight). I still cherish the remembrance of me crossing the "green border with Slovakia" over the hiking mountain trail.

I had a pannier with the spare battery, tools, and drinks on my Vado (making it far heavier). The hardest part started with a loose gravel ride, followed by a 18.6% climb off-road. Later, I was riding a hiking path, grass, then again a hiking path so narrow and muddy I had to walk my Vado at times, using the Walk mode. And carry my e-bike over some obstacles. And I made it!

an impressive trek for a bike designed for road use !!

…. but an entirely different problem than needing to literally pick the bike up multiple times every day, for example to avoid a very long wait at an elevator at a transit station. it’s wait for the elevator or carry it down (or up!) the equivalent of 6 flights of stairs. even just getting to the secure bike parking at our office involves steps, and no fewer than 6 doors, two of which are barely 4’ apart and adjacent to said steps. we have steps at home to get TO the elevators (pre-war building before people cared about accessibility!) and depending on which direction one takes the train from here, you have to carry the bike up several steep steps. to say nothing of picking it up over curbs 20 times a day and the actual storage both at home and the office, which is HANGING. (yes, my creo lives hung by it’s front wheel with the rear wheel 3 feet off the ground!) finally, our cross street (to and from
which i take my kids to school) has a 20.1% average grade for the adjacent block! one block over, 22.8%.

so, i can be convinced of front/mid/rear drive, drop bars or flat bars, aluminum, steel, titanium, or carbon, derailleur, IGH, or pinion…. but light weight is non-negotiable

 

[Stefan Mikes]

an impressive trek for a bike designed for road use !!

…. but an entirely different problem than needing to literally pick the bike up multiple times every day, for example to avoid a very long wait at an elevator at a transit station. it’s wait for the elevator or carry it down (or up!) the equivalent of 6 flights of stairs. even just getting to the secure bike parking at our office involves steps, and no fewer than 6 doors, two of which are barely 4’ apart and adjacent to said steps. we have steps at home to get TO the elevators (pre-war building before people cared about accessibility!) and depending on which direction one takes the train from here, you have to carry the bike up several steep steps. to say nothing of picking it up over curbs 20 times a day and the actual storage both at home and the office, which is HANGING. (yes, my creo lives hung by it’s front wheel with the rear wheel 3 feet off the ground!) finally, our cross street (to and from
which i take my kids to school) has a 20.1% average grade for the adjacent block! one block over, 22.8%.

so, i can be convinced of front/mid/rear drive, drop bars or flat bars, aluminum, steel, titanium, or carbon, derailleur, IGH, or pinion…. but light weight is non-negotiable

I fully understand you now. That's precisely why I chose Vado SL as my everyday e-bike!

• Three flight of stairs in my block of flats
• Elevators at train stations and by some overpasses
• Carrying the e-bike over obstacles at easy gravel-cycling trails.

I only don't need to carry a kid on the rear rack seat Instead, I carry 1-2 panniers, and a large backpack if I am for grocery shopping.

I can also understand you are a very fit person. I wouldn't be able to make my 78 mi / 5100 ft trip on Vado SL myself...