ebikes need more torque IMO

[AHicks]

I do like that as soon as you apply pressure on the pedal the motor engages but you only get one shot of power until you can get your other foot on the other pedal so crossing a road from a dead stop, uphill with traffic coming does take some foresight. Overall I think the Yamaha PW-SE system is well integrated and user friendly. I don't wish for more acceleration, I have a sport bike for that but I'd like to be able to maintain 15 mph up a steep grade and that is simply asking too much from the Yamaha system and my level of fitness.

If you have a target in mind, like the ability to maintain 15mph up this theoretical hill, I think you'll find that many times a little research, a little money, and some dirty hands might make that goal attainable, with the bike you have, or maybe a home built DIY project.

All bikes are a compromise. Define your mission and go for it. It's very likely it's attainable right now...

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Given how inaccurate and misleading e-bike motor manufacturers have been about horsepower figures, it doesn't make sense to take their torque figures seriously either.

It would be interesting to hook up various e-bikes to a dynamometer and actually measure their power output and torque.

 

[MikeDD]

It would be nice to know what bikes you have. I am one of the few here that rides a mountain bike "on this web site", Specialized Turbo Levo FSR. I can climb any hill and start from a stop with a lot of speed. True, it is a class 1, but I have not missed the throttle I had on my class 2. I really thought I would miss the throttle. As far as speed, on a flat road today I hit 22.3 mph with the butcher grip tires.

I ride 50/50 pavement/dirt.

 

[DaveMatthews]

It would be nice to know what bikes you have. I am one of the few here that rides a mountain bike "on this web site", Specialized Turbo Levo FSR. I can climb any hill and start from a stop with a lot of speed. True, it is a class 1, but I have not missed the throttle I had on my class 2. I really thought I would miss the throttle. As far as speed, on a flat road today I hit 22.3 mph with the butcher grip tires.

I ride 50/50 pavement/dirt.

2019 Giant Fathom E+ 2 here.
I wanted a bike that would be good in the dirt, and OK/good on the road. So far I've been on the road a lot with just having daily fun and a couple of work commutes.
I was thinking I might miss a throttle, but I'm happy with the give/receive ratio.

 

[DDBB]

I have a Haibike sduro trekking 6.0 with Yamaha PW-SE motor.. 10 speed cassette with dual chain ring up front. Don't get me wrong, I'm absolutely thrilled with this bike and it fits the type of riding we do very well.. We do have some short very steep hills on the golf course cart paths that we ride and I have no problem getting up them in 1st, 2nd or 3rd gear but speed drops below 10mph obviously. I think I could climb anything in 1st gear but I'd only be going 5mph. I should realize 500 watts isn't a lot of power but it sure beats my normally aspirated bike.

 

[Alaskan]

@DDBB For me, being able to go a good distance is primary. Getting 60-70 miles on a charge in eco/tour is key for me. Just as in a car, at cruising speeds the higher the mph, the lower the mpg.

With my Bosch HS, if I keep my speed on the flats under 20, in eco with a heart rate of 105, I can ride non stop for an hour or longer and get that mileage. Range falls off pretty darn quick from 22mph and faster.

When I know I am not going so far, it sure is fun to boost the assist, lean in to the pedals and rip down the road.

If I can get up a steep hill without putting my heart rate into the danger zone, it is all good, even if only at 7mph.

Dialing in the assist, my effort, cadence, etc allows me to achieve all of the above

 

[6zfshdb]

Love our new ebikes, mine with Yamaha PW-SE motor and wifes with Shimano steps 6000. After riding 50mi. or so we both wish they had more torque for hill climbing. I understand that if they are made too powerful we'll lose access to trails but neither of us were expecting as much of a workout as we are getting riding these bikes. . One of the big reasons I wanted the Yamaha YDX torc was for the PW-X motor which has 15% more torque than the SE. I'd want even more than that though. Of course more torque would come with more watts used so the battery would have to be even bigger. It will be interesting to see what the future brings for ebikes. Flame suit on

I would also like to see some improvement in ebike hill climbing ability, especially with hub drives. In order to limit top speed, some state ebike laws put limits on motor wattage which also limits torque. Higher torque does not necessarily equal higher speed. A suitable motor controller could easily limit the speed of an ebike with a high torque motor while still boosting it's hill climbing ability. Hopefully, manufacturers will pick up on this idea in the future.

 

[indianajo]

My 1000 W geared hub drive motor will start fine on a 15% grade and run 11 mph on that grade gross weight 270 lb. That is 1.75" rise in a foot. Came from ebikeling.com as a power wheel kit. As far as I know states aren't regulating kits yet, just bicycles.
Throttle is handy for starting up on that grade, you don't have to spin a half turn human powered for the PAS to pick up. That Savannah cruiser bike doesn't have low enough sprocket ratio to start on 15% grade human powered, nor get up it with a head start.

 

[AHicks]

I may have to try something like that (1000w (+?) geared hub drive). I like the concept of having the mechanical advantage to get launched the gear drive is able to provide. Present 1500w DD hub works OK, but I have no use for the high speed capabilities. Gears may suit my <20mph mission much better. Conversion from DD hub to geared hub would be drop dead simple.... the price would be for the geared hub itself. Everything else would work as is. Downside would be loss of downhill braking that regen provides.

 

[indianajo]

I go 30+ mph downhill on the 15% grade, the air does the braking since I sit vertically. If I hit a deer, I won't be posting for a while. With the battery on the front there might be a big ball of fire.
But steep grades are short in Indiana. California & Colorado riders, ignore this.

 

[AHicks]

The steep grades that worry me are the ones with stop signs at the bottom....

 

[Bruce Arnold]

I've got to agree with Ravi's comment: gear down. I've been on some hills that I had to go all the way down to first gear and was still moving slowly. But I'd have been walking a regular bike, not pedaling slowly. So it meets my expectations, although it's not the "flying up hills effortlessly with the wind in your hair" expectation.

Here's something I'm not certain about yet. I'm experimenting with PAS levels. I'm not convinced that a higher level gives me the same torque at low speeds as a lower level does. It seems, for instance, that I can tell a difference when I'm riding in, say, level 3, that it doesn't really kick in until I get above around 16 mph. Yes, it's there, but it seems like there's more boost above 16. I'm trying to figure out whether less is more at lower speeds. Since I live in a fairly flat area, I don't get a lot of time to experiment.

Another thing I'm less certain of because I have no experience with mid-drives: to get the best hill-climbing performance out of my geared hub drive, I find it helpful to increase speed before starting to climb. The manufacturer (Juiced Bikes) says they use a high-speed wiring for the motor, so this makes sense. If it is optimized for speed, then I'm optimizing the torque that is there by getting up to speed. What I'm not certain of is whether this applies to any mid-drive motor.

 

[Jerry LM]

And then you won't have as much range, these are bicycles not motorcycles!

 

[indianajo]

My geared hub uses 2/3 the watts at 11 mph that it does at 4 mph on steep grades.

 

[DDBB]

I should have bought the FLX blade..

 

[Bicyclista]

I ride a 2016 Haibike AllMtn with mid-drive Yamaha PW (I think) drive. The motor is a (nominal) 250W unit with 60 or 70nM of torque. (I agree that the manufacturer's torque figures are meaningless. They never tell us how they measure them. This goes for the power figures as well.) I have yet to find a road hill I cannot climb. (Off-road, it's a different story!) It's a partnership between rider and machine. True, sometimes the effort is great and your speed may go down to 5 mph. But it's always easier than a conventional bike, and the speed, for me, never goes down to zero. If you want the machine to do all the work, look for a scooter or a motorcycle. Please don't interpret this as a putdown. It's simply a different choice.

 

[Robofleeds]

For me, an e bike is still about excercise so I don’t want more torque. What I would like is greater range to go further.

If you want to maintain the same speed over any terrain and with minimal effort, buy an electric motorbike.

The likes of Haibike with their new 120nm motor are trying to convince us we “need” a more powerful motor so they can differentiate to sell more bikes.

 

[TForan]

For me, an e bike is still about excercise so I don’t want more torque. What I would like is greater range to go further.

If you want to maintain the same speed over any terrain and with minimal effort, buy an electric motorbike.

The likes of Haibike with their new 120nm motor are trying to convince us we “need” a more powerful motor so they can differentiate to sell more bikes.

I have a Bixtrix with the Ultra motor and it has a boatload of torque. That said, you don't have to use it all the time. Just dial back the boost and you'll get all the exercise you want.

 

[AHicks]

For me, an e bike is still about excercise so I don’t want more torque. What I would like is greater range to go further.

If you want to maintain the same speed over any terrain and with minimal effort, buy an electric motorbike.

The likes of Haibike with their new 120nm motor are trying to convince us we “need” a more powerful motor so they can differentiate to sell more bikes.

Pretty sure it's a case of different strokes for different folks here. Any electric works fairly well on level hard surfaces. Try using your bike in a hilly coastal area though. For many of us who would much rather ride than walk, areas like this will showcase a bike's ability to climb, something that WILL be a factor for this rider, as my enthusiasm for riding quickly diminishes when I have to push. For that reason, available torque (and how much battery power it takes to develop it) IS a big factor.

 

[Ken M]

@Ken M Not sue what bike you are referring to. The gearing on my Cube with Bosch CX is just the opposite of what you were citing above (46 front 16 rear). The chain ring on the Cube's hub is 16 tooth and the lowest gear has 46 teeth.

If ripping up hill at speed was @DDBB 's expectation or desire, then a high wattage, juice-hungry hub motor with a massive battery is the only solution...something more akin to electric scooter/motorcycle with pedals being an afterthought, window dressing or subterfuge.

Bosch was pretty smart with their mid drive motor design. By having a smaller front chain ring spinning at 2.5 X of the cranks there is less torque loss at higher speeds. I'm not sure exactly sure how much the internal gearing in the motor impacts this but they do tend to be better at speeds over 20mph than the other mid drive systems which larger front chain rings spinning at the same speed as the cranks.

Mid drives are optimized more for slower speed hill climbing which is where most riders want/need the assistance.

That said, I sill believe that hub drive motors have a distinct advantage at higher speeds because the motor torque is directly applied at the wheel. A higher power direct drive hub drive system (nothing exotic but something in the range of 1000-1500W) will typically allow for much higher sustained speeds up moderate hills vs a mid drive system which can be a significant time savings if you are commuting a long distance on an ebike. The industry just doesn't talk much about this because as I said earlier most of the investment money is going towards mid drives which are more efficient at the typical speeds of most riders (that 10-15mph range). I think a lot of urban commute riders like to ride in that 20-25mph range which hub motors will typically excel at.